The Order: 1886

[RenegadeRocks]

KZ2 was supreme ! Then they went after the COD crowd and the rest is history. Last missions of KZ3 were also great, the mones that followed the Mobile factory. Shadow Fall is a bit back to form and is very fun , if you don't like COD-clones, that is. It is not COD like trigger-spamming, and thats why its so good.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

Slightly off topic, but indeed what the heck is GG doing since KZ SF ? Last time there was some news, it was mentioned they were working on "new IP".

And please never ever such a trailer again supposedly demonstrating the power of a console, then 2 years later releasing the game heavily downgraded.

If you look at the video now, the game actually looked better in some departments. Except for the number of polygons, of course.

 

[DieH@rd]

Slightly off topic, but indeed what the heck is GG doing since KZ SF ? Last time there was some news, it was mentioned they were working on "new IP".

We only have few pieces of art and hints from GAF insiders of their codename "Horizon" project.
http://ww3.sinaimg.cn/large/60ade0f3jw1eke6m65xijj21kw148b29.jpg
http://ww1.sinaimg.cn/large/60ade0f3jw1eke6cw8t7bj21kw0oaqrc.jpg
http://ww4.sinaimg.cn/large/60ade0f3jw1eke6j0zwa5j21kw149h8v.jpg

 

[orangpelupa]

watched those 2 part video..

does this game have no interactive physics? Something like flipping table for cover. How about the friend, it seems the player cant give command and the friend just sitting there shooting at air.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

And please never ever such a trailer again supposedly demonstrating the power of a console, then 2 years later releasing the game heavily downgraded.

There has never been any downgrading, as the game has never looked like the CG trailer.
If anything, it got a little better looking based on screenshots released during its development.

Obviously if someone believed it could look like CG in all aspects, that person had to be disappointed, and the marketing at E3 certainly played a huge role in creating the wrong impressions...

 

[MrFox]

watched those 2 part video..

does this game have no interactive physics? Something like flipping table for cover. How about the friend, it seems the player cant give command and the friend just sitting there shooting at air.

I stopped watching videos and reviews a while back, but I haven't seen either mentioned anywhere. It's almost as if it's going to be an action-adventure game, and not a tactical shooter.

 

[Billy Idol]

KZ2 was supreme ! Then they went after the COD crowd and the rest is history. Last missions of KZ3 were also great, the mones that followed the Mobile factory. Shadow Fall is a bit back to form and is very fun , if you don't like COD-clones, that is. It is not COD like trigger-spamming, and thats why its so good.

+1

That is why I said: they should watch this trailer again, because it helped them making KZ2!

KZ3 and KZSF are good games, but have nothing to do with KZ2 imo.

 

[Billy Idol]

Btw..must resist watching the Order footage!!

I already pre ordered it...but I can't wait to see it on my own screen with the settings I am used to!

 

[chris1515]

What's funny is just how much this 10-years old piece still has on current game rendering technology - a huge scene geometry complexity, proper hair rendering, full dynamic GI lighting, volumetrics, and so on.

Sure, the art direction and the asset quality could be done better today, even on the same budget; but it's still unmistakably offline rendered. There's no game renderer out there that could match the results.

I agree and this is why I hope we will change of rendering method in the 10 years to come. For example go to Reyes rendering and GI approximation loke Voxel Cone tracing or Voxel Octree because real-time path tracing is probably an unrealistic goal...

This is why I find old offline rendering much better than real time rendering. Many things are High level and not present in Toy Story in real time rendering but the work of programmer and artist can't overcome all limits of current real time rendering like geometry complexity, shadow problem, IQ, bad GI hack (SSAO...) or no global reflection system and so on...

I remember a great presentation of Tim Sweeney about the possibility to change of rendering method...

 

[Sigfried1977]

I think we need a new Killzone. One with atmosphere and dialog of KZ2, ...

The dialog of KZ2? Seriously?

I don't think we'll be seeing another KZ anytime soon. They've tried and tried and the they tried some more, and while they did squeeze some pretty decent games out of what started as a single rendering of a space Nazi, they never managed to do anything interesting with the rich setting itself. They also never had any main characters that were even remotely interesting. Quite frankly, how little Guerilla managed to capitalize on the strengths of its very own made-up universe was rather remarkable. The gaming public at large never really cared all that much for the franchise to begin with anyway, and now they've pretty much lost interest completely.

 

[L. Scofield]

There's quite a graphical disparity in this video. Initially it seems like the game follows the Uncharted method of calculating direct sunlight in realtime, with dynamic shadows, while the indirect lighting is lightmapped. However, at 13:10 another area has direct sunlight lightmapped and no shadow casting for the characters. WTF.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

May I ask why? If someone expresses their opinion that they find a game or piece of art to be "the most impressive thing they've seen", why must they qualify that with any objective criteria?

Surely it's an inherently subjective statement, and I don't think you need a degree in english literature to be able to take it as such.

If the dude had said, "it's the most technically impressive game and stands head and shoulders above the rest" I could understand your stance. He simply said "it LOOKS head and shoulders above the rest", which implies that it's based on his own subjective opinion which cannot be argued against.

For someone who was getting so riled up with me about my supposed dismissing of people's opinions about this game, you're really working hard to do the same to this guy.

I didn't dismiss it. If his statement was of a purely subjective nature then it's simply poorly worded. If it was a statement of an objective nature then he would have to present evidence for his case and we could have a discussion about it.

Still so hung up with my earlier statement I see. Well like others have pointed out I didn't specify "technically" it's head and shoulder above everything else, just what I can perceive optically. And in the end isn't that what really matters? What good is shoehorning a slew of techniques when your result is less than stellar whether doe to bad art or forced to make sacrifices else where?

This post started as "it's just my subjective opinion" and then quickly veered into "it actually IS better than the rest". LOL.

There has never been any downgrading, as the game has never looked like the CG trailer.
If anything, it got a little better looking based on screenshots released during its development.

Obviously if someone believed it could look like CG in all aspects, that person had to be disappointed, and the marketing at E3 certainly played a huge role in creating the wrong impressions...

Actually there was some downgrading in the level of detail of some buildings. Nothing major though.

 

[Prophecy2k]

The dialog of KZ2? Seriously?

I don't think we'll be seeing another KZ anytime soon. They've tried and tried and the they tried some more, and while they did squeeze some pretty decent games out of what started as a single rendering of a space Nazi, they never managed to do anything interesting with the rich setting itself. They also never had any main characters that were even remotely interesting. Quite frankly, how little Guerilla managed to capitalize on the strengths of its very own made-up universe was rather remarkable. The gaming public at large never really cared all that much for the franchise to begin with anyway, and now they've pretty much lost interest completely.

Perhaps in the US. But KZ:SF is still the best selling new-gen exclusive so far. And KZ3 didn't do too shabby in europe I believe.

Personally, I'd be happy with a new KZ game, but only if they can recapture some of that KZ2 magic. I think Guerilla Cambridge are the team for the job. KZ: Mercenary was excellent and a much better KZ game than KZ3, Shadow Fall and Liberation.

Anyway this is off topic. Let's get some Order

Spoiler

1886

back in here

 

[Prophecy2k]

I didn't dismiss it. If his statement was of a purely subjective nature then it's simply poorly worded. If it was a statement of an objective nature then he would have to present evidence for his case and we could have a discussion about it.

Ok, so accept that this is the case as give him the benefit of the doubt. Demanding proof whenever someone essentially says "I like the look of this game", just stiffles any kind of intelligent discourse too.

If you want to have a separate discussion on why this game ISN'T objectively the most impressive game, then by all means. But let's not pretend that ultragpu was speaking objectively when expressing his subjective opinion.

This post started as "it's just my subjective opinion" and then quickly veered into "it actually IS better than the rest". LOL.

Nope, still his subjective opinion. You're objectivity meter clearly needs a recalibration son ;-)

 

[L. Scofield]

Ok, so accept that this is the case as give him the benefit of the doubt. Demanding proof whenever someone essentially says "I like the look of this game", just stiffles any kind of intelligent discourse too.

If you want to have a separate discussion on why this game ISN'T objectively the most impressive game, then by all means. But let's not pretend that ultragpu was speaking objectively when expressing his subjective opinion.

It's actually the other way around. When somebody claims it's the best, the burden of proof is on that person. However, to create a discussion I'd list these arguments:

-Sub-HD. 25% less pixels than 1080p.
-Blur, blur and more blur: http://a.pomf.se/pcsqzb.png
-Most lighting is baked. It's inconsistent as well as shown in my previous post.
-Small, static environments.
-A handful of NPCs on screen at once during gameplay (this could change when more of the game is revealed).

To summarize: it makes good use of what it has, but objectively it's not pushing any boundaries.

Nope, still his subjective opinion. You're objectivity meter clearly needs a recalibration son ;-)

Debatable.

 

[MrFox]

I can't stop laughing we're still talking about this, I hope it's not my fault.

Oh well, I pre-ordered the game so I guess I'll know next week if it's good. But thank you for the funny semantics and philosophical discussion.

 

[Prophecy2k]

It's actually the other way around. When somebody claims it's the best, the burden of proof is on that person. However, to create a discussion I'd list these arguments:

-Sub-HD. 25% less pixels than 1080p.
-Blur, blur and more blur: http://a.pomf.se/pcsqzb.png
-Most lighting is baked. It's inconsistent as well as shown in my previous post.
-Small, static environments.
-A handful of NPCs on screen at once during gameplay (this could change when more of the game is revealed).

To summarize: it makes good use of what it has, but objectively it's not pushing any boundaries.

Ok, this is far more interesting than an argument about "he said - she said". So before we continue, you've laid out quite valid points but I think before it goes any further we need to define what exactly we're arguing:

Are we arguing the technical merits of The Order's visuals; as a console game; thus appreciating the compromises RAD had to make given the HW limitations;

Or are we simply arguing whether it is the best looking game currently; objectively; on any platform; based only on the objective technical aspects of its rendering and visual effects?

It's worth clarifying this, so we don't end up in a tizzy.

Debatable.

lol.

 

[Prophecy2k]

I can't stop laughing we're still talking about this, I hope it's not my fault.

Oh well, I pre-ordered the game so I guess I'll know next week if it's good. But thank you for the funny semantics and philosophical discussion.

Don't worry Mrfox... L. Scofield and I know we love it

 

[VFX_Veteran]

I'd still reserve judgement on some of the "shortfalls" such as number of enemies on screen, movable objects or the openness of the level in general since we still haven't seen everything the game has to offer.

Most games stay the same after an hour of playing the first part. I don't see much changing with the formula, but I could be wrong.

Also cloth physics and character model are the best I've seen so far, the fact they're consistent with cut scene all the time puts it above 99% of games out there.

Agree.

Ac Unity awes in a very different way by showing huge vista and unholy number of npcs while The Order succeeds at quality per pixel with maximum amount of care on individual characters and assets. For me the latter naturally offers a far more CGI look on a per pixel basis.

I agree with this. But that doesn't say much about The Order since most of it is watching cinematics and doing QTEs.. the gameplay is clearly lacking compared to AC:Unity.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Perhaps in the US. But KZ:SF is still the best selling new-gen exclusive so far. And KZ3 didn't do too shabby in europe I believe.

I've only played KZ2 and KZ:SF but agree with Sigfried1977. The dialogue in KZ2 was dire; really, really dire. I really liked the game and also liked Shadow Fall. But, OWL mechanic aside, it was a very much by the numbers competent shooter. I felt nothing for any of the characters at all. I didn't like the "good guys", didn't dislike the "bad guys", character-wise both games were just meh.

 

[L. Scofield]

Ok, this is far more interesting than an argument about "he said - she said". So before we continue, you've laid out quite valid points but I think before it goes any further we need to define what exactly we're arguing:

Are we arguing the technical merits of The Order's visuals; as a console game; thus appreciating the compromises RAD had to make given the HW limitations;

Or are we simply arguing whether it is the best looking game currently; objectively; on any platform; based only on the objective technical aspects of its rendering and visual effects?

It's worth clarifying this, so we don't end up in a tizzy.

We can do both since those two discussions rely on tech and not personal preference. However, with the huge performance gap between consoles and PC you'd have a tough time selling the second argument.