VFX_Veteran
Regular
I'm game.. let the discussion begin!
The Order: 1886
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Prophecy2k
Veteran
Oh don't get me wrong. I wasn't arguing against that point. I could never claim the dialogue and characterisation of KZ2 was anything better than tragic, but the rest of the game was so good that it didn't really matter much to me tbh. It was to all intents and purposes a sci-fi military invasion sim. The fun was in the visceral audiovisual feedback and excellent gunplay. The level design I also found pretty darn enjoyable in KZ2. The fight up to Visari's palace was masterful, and the single standout gaming moment for me last gen. The story and characters? Meh. Although I'd argue KZ3 was better in that dept., the rest of the game suffered for it.
VFX_Veteran
Regular
Can we stay on topic please?
Prophecy2k
Veteran
Sounds good. Ok so can we start with your points? I'd like to probe you a bit.
"Sub-HD. 25% less pixels than 1080p."
Black bars are a design choice (or compromise, possibly to save mem. BW since they're using 4xMSAA). Given the game still has 1:1 pixel mapping on a 1080p res panel, is this really a legitimate downside? Especially given the AA method chosen and IQ results obtained?
"Blur, blur and more blur: http://a.pomf.se/pcsqzb.png"
A "softer" image, sure. But effects used are intended to emulate real camera lens effects, and in this regard they are pretty successful are they not?
I can accept that perfect IQ would be objectively better, provided that was the aim. But if the aim is to provide cinematic IQ, does The Order really fall short?
"Most lighting is baked. It's inconsistent as well as shown in my previous post"
Is baked lighting alone objectively worse? I was of the understanding that a good baked lighting system can be objectively superior to a GI approx. on the same HW? Eitherway, what are the specific areas in the lighting that you feel a GI-based system would have improved on? And given the use of GI system, what compromises would you have made to impliment it if you were RAD?
"small, static environments"
From what we've seen so far, yes it seems so.
"A handful of NPCs on screen at once during gameplay (this could change when more of the game is revealed)"
From what we've seen so far, yes it seems so. You're point here is that you want to see more NPC's on screen right?
Ok so given your criticisms, which console game do you think currently beats The Order in the specific tedchnical areas mentioned (as well as others), also considering how all these graphical features add up to convincing "near-offline-CGI-like" visuals?
Prophecy2k
Veteran
Of course, I was just clarifyng ;-)
I can't recall how long it was until Gears of War 1 started to open up some of its fight scenes... but there were definitely a few where you had to deal with quite a lot of enemies and had 1-2-3 NPCs fighting on side as well. Not to mention the huge boss monsters.
Uncharted 1 also had some larger environments and fights with a lot of simultaneous enemies as far as I know, but again, not sure if you were given a good enough idea of the game's scope within the first hour or so.
I think we should give the game a little more time; but it's certainly not encouraging that we haven't seen anything that's at least as complex as last-gen 3rd person shooters in therms of the environment size and character count...
L. Scofield
Veteran
Well it's a fact that it's rendering 25% less pixels than full 1080p games.
What is cinematic IQ? Maybe a century ago did film look this blurry, certainly not in the past 2-3 decades. It's an exaggeration.
It's not bad, but certainly nothing to write home about. Remember, the discussion is about whether is the best, not just serviceable.
OK.
My point is that 10 characters on screen at once is not a big deal.
I wouldn't say it's the best in everything because obviously it isn't but I'd put AC Unity ahead of the Order because it's actually pushing boundaries:
-Free-roam open-world design with 1 in each 4 buildings having modeled interiors, plus seamless transitions between exteriors and interiors.
-Massive amounts of NPCs on screen at once, with plenty of them having their own cloth simulations.
In terms of disadvantages I'd say 7% less resolution and more jaggies.
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EDIT: I think if we're going by the "CGI-look" as a standard I could nominate Driveclub.
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ArcticCircle
Newcomer
Just saw this on youtube. While I'm PC only player, I have to admit that this game is probably most beautiful game I've ever seen. It's like cutscene, but you play it... amazing. It's great from both technical and artistic point of view and makes games like Dragon Age look like 2 generations behind (ok, just one generation behind 
). I won't comment on game play and quicktime events but I'd love to see game of this caliber to be more like closed hub based roleplaying game like Vampire Bloodlines or Deus Ex (as graphical assets wouldn't have to be any more demanding because of closed space as opposed to open world games).
). I won't comment on game play and quicktime events but I'd love to see game of this caliber to be more like closed hub based roleplaying game like Vampire Bloodlines or Deus Ex (as graphical assets wouldn't have to be any more demanding because of closed space as opposed to open world games).The order looks straight cg, sorry for unity, but time will pass before an open world game can beat a linear game in technical aspects and having at the same time the same level of detail and a perfect polished state. Unity don't touch the order graphics in any way, simply because it can't, yeah it have good lighting, and that's all, large (and boring) places to go, but it's so little polished, harsh in certain things, so much polygons edges around and so little cure for...well everything, it's a ubisoft game! For example, finger don't have nails sometimes,shimmering always present in every corner, aliasing too, but yeah have this stupid massive crown, with very low polygons complexity for each character and...well...their textures...they look like a bunch of idiots, all put togheter for whatever reason. Quantity over quality,sorry but for me i will always choose quality. The order is nearly perfect, if only reflections was possible for every characters on screen for every glass surface....
AC Unity is really pushing that bezel!
I'm not sure I'd agree. DriveClub's lighting is incredible, but one of the main hallmarks of what people define as the "looks like CGI" appearance is smooth, stable visuals with no visible undersampling. One of the complaints commonly leveled at DC's visuals is that it experiences some noticeable sample aliasing and "digital" noise.
L. Scofield
Veteran
Is there actually any consensus on what "looks like CGI" entails? I'd say if you pitch Driveclub and The Order at their best (at least as far as the footage we have is concerned) Driveclub wins hands down. Sure, there's some shimmering here and there but it compensates by looking like reality instead of CGI. And that's without restorting to the cheap tricks that are desaturation and chromatic aberration.AC Unity is really pushing that bezel!
I'm not sure I'd agree. DriveClub's lighting is incredible, but one of the main hallmarks of what people define as the "looks like CGI" appearance is smooth, stable visuals with no visible undersampling. One of the complaints commonly leveled at DC's visuals is that it experiences some noticeable sample aliasing and "digital" noise.
I think consumers hate wasting screen space more than they could possibly love The Order.
I guess we'll find out when the sales numbers start to roll in.
L. Scofield
Veteran
Not really. They could like the game overall while still disliking the black bars.
AC unity is pretty good on PC( popin of NPC is a bit too visible) but it is technically weak on Xbox One and PS4.
Shitty framerate, pop in, horrible bug, resolution inferior to The Order 1886 1600*900 is inferior to 1920*800, bad FXAA, upscale. I saw the game running for 1 hour on PS4 it was enough...
If you have said Quantum Break or Ryse or UC4 why not but AC Unity on console no way. For a second console title of Assassin's Creed serie on PS4/Xbox One it is bad... It is not like this console are 7 years old even if they are not high end... And they are probably capable of much better with better project management or Ubi soft not releasing an unfinished product...
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This was a big argument with the launch of DVD when there were no 16:9 TVs available, widescreen really sucked "cause of the black bars" for some people. Today, the majority of films in theater (and bluray) are 2.35, most directors of photography love it. I've never seen anyone complain about this with bluray, so why would they complain with games?
I switched exclusively to a 2.35 screen many years ago, constant image height. It's about time somebody used this aspect ratio with a game that aims for a more cinematic quality. I admit it's a bit early for this, but I'm really happy they did.
L. Scofield
Veteran
The pattern so far I see is telling me the aspects of AC Unity that are bad. What's missing are the aspects of The Order that put it at the top. Sure, AC is very unpolished but it's also pushing boundaries. I want to see arguments about how The Order does that as well if it does it at all.
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The first hour, grab it while you can. SPOILERS of course.
At 28:10 (no spoilers there, just an average firefight) you can see what I talked about before about the lack of shadows under direct sunlight.
EDIT: It's actually weirder than I thought. Dynamic shadows for the characters are being generated but they're not cast on the environment, just themselves or other characters. Environment shadows however both cast on the characters and the environment.
Didn't people complain a lot about the Evil Within's black bars?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first hour, grab it while you can. SPOILERS of course.
At 28:10 (no spoilers there, just an average firefight) you can see what I talked about before about the lack of shadows under direct sunlight.
EDIT: It's actually weirder than I thought. Dynamic shadows for the characters are being generated but they're not cast on the environment, just themselves or other characters. Environment shadows however both cast on the characters and the environment.
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