VFX_Veteran
Regular
I'm game.. let the discussion begin!
I've only played KZ2 and KZ:SF but agree with Sigfried1977. The dialogue in KZ2 was dire; really, really dire. I really liked the game and also liked Shadow Fall. But, OWL mechanic aside, it was a very much by the numbers competent shooter. I felt nothing for any of the characters at all. I didn't like the "good guys", didn't dislike the "bad guys", character-wise both games were just meh.
Oh don't get me wrong. I wasn't arguing against that point. I could never claim the dialogue and characterisation of KZ2 was anything better than tragic, but the rest of the game was so good that it didn't really matter much to me tbh. It was to all intents and purposes a sci-fi military invasion sim. The fun was in the visceral audiovisual feedback and excellent gunplay. The level design I also found pretty darn enjoyable in KZ2. The fight up to Visari's palace was masterful, and the single standout gaming moment for me last gen. The story and characters? Meh. Although I'd argue KZ3 was better in that dept., the rest of the game suffered for it.
We can do both since those two discussions rely on tech and not personal preference. However, with the huge performance gap between consoles and PC you'd have a tough time selling the second argument.
Can we stay on topic please?
Ok so given your criticisms, which console game do you think currently beats The Order in the specific tedchnical areas mentioned (as well as others), also considering how all these graphical features add up to convincing "near-offline-CGI-like" visuals?
Most games stay the same after an hour of playing the first part. I don't see much changing with the formula, but I could be wrong.
Well it's a fact that it's rendering 25% less pixels than full 1080p games.Sounds good. Ok so can we start with your points? I'd like to probe you a bit.
"Sub-HD. 25% less pixels than 1080p."
Black bars are a design choice (or compromise, possibly to save mem. BW since they're using 4xMSAA). Given the game still has 1:1 pixel mapping on a 1080p res panel, is this really a legitimate downside? Especially given the AA method chosen and IQ results obtained?
What is cinematic IQ? Maybe a century ago did film look this blurry, certainly not in the past 2-3 decades. It's an exaggeration."Blur, blur and more blur: http://a.pomf.se/pcsqzb.png"
A "softer" image, sure. But effects used are intended to emulate real camera lens effects, and in this regard they are pretty successful are they not?
I can accept that perfect IQ would be objectively better, provided that was the aim. But if the aim is to provide cinematic IQ, does The Order really fall short?
It's not bad, but certainly nothing to write home about. Remember, the discussion is about whether is the best, not just serviceable."Most lighting is baked. It's inconsistent as well as shown in my previous post"
Is baked lighting alone objectively worse? I was of the understanding that a good baked lighting system can be objectively superior to a GI approx. on the same HW? Eitherway, what are the specific areas in the lighting that you feel a GI-based system would have improved on? And given the use of GI system, what compromises would you have made to impliment it if you were RAD?
OK."small, static environments"
From what we've seen so far, yes it seems so.
My point is that 10 characters on screen at once is not a big deal."A handful of NPCs on screen at once during gameplay (this could change when more of the game is revealed)"
From what we've seen so far, yes it seems so. You're point here is that you want to see more NPC's on screen right?
I wouldn't say it's the best in everything because obviously it isn't but I'd put AC Unity ahead of the Order because it's actually pushing boundaries:Ok so given your criticisms, which console game do you think currently beats The Order in the specific tedchnical areas mentioned (as well as others), also considering how all these graphical features add up to convincing "near-offline-CGI-like" visuals?
AC Unity is really pushing that bezel!I'd put AC Unity ahead of the Order because it's actually pushing boundaries:
I'm not sure I'd agree. DriveClub's lighting is incredible, but one of the main hallmarks of what people define as the "looks like CGI" appearance is smooth, stable visuals with no visible undersampling. One of the complaints commonly leveled at DC's visuals is that it experiences some noticeable sample aliasing and "digital" noise.EDIT: I think if we're going by the "CGI-look" as a standard I could nominate Driveclub.
Is there actually any consensus on what "looks like CGI" entails? I'd say if you pitch Driveclub and The Order at their best (at least as far as the footage we have is concerned) Driveclub wins hands down. Sure, there's some shimmering here and there but it compensates by looking like reality instead of CGI. And that's without restorting to the cheap tricks that are desaturation and chromatic aberration.AC Unity is really pushing that bezel!
I'm not sure I'd agree. DriveClub's lighting is incredible, but one of the main hallmarks of what people define as the "looks like CGI" appearance is smooth, stable visuals with no visible undersampling. One of the complaints commonly leveled at DC's visuals is that it experiences some noticeable sample aliasing and "digital" noise.
I think consumers hate wasting screen space more than they could possibly love The Order.I wonder if more games will take the "cinematic" approach and use black bars. If gamers love the look of The Order, then why the hell not? You don't get the blurriness of sub-HD scaled, but you get the same benefits.
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I think consumers hate wasting screen space more than they could possibly love The Order.
Not really. They could like the game overall while still disliking the black bars.I guess we'll find out when the sales numbers start to roll in.
Well it's a fact that it's rendering 25% less pixels than full 1080p games.
What is cinematic IQ? Maybe a century ago did film look this blurry, certainly not in the past 2-3 decades. It's an exaggeration.
It's not bad, but certainly nothing to write home about. Remember, the discussion is about whether is the best, not just serviceable.
OK.
My point is that 10 characters on screen at once is not a big deal.
I wouldn't say it's the best in everything because obviously it isn't but I'd put AC Unity ahead of the Order because it's actually pushing boundaries:
-Free-roam open-world design with 1 in each 4 buildings having modeled interiors, plus seamless transitions between exteriors and interiors.
-Massive amounts of NPCs on screen at once, with plenty of them having their own cloth simulations.
In terms of disadvantages I'd say 7% less resolution and more jaggies.
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EDIT: I think if we're going by the "CGI-look" as a standard I could nominate Driveclub.
This was a big argument with the launch of DVD when there were no 16:9 TVs available, widescreen really sucked "cause of the black bars" for some people. Today, the majority of films in theater (and bluray) are 2.35, most directors of photography love it. I've never seen anyone complain about this with bluray, so why would they complain with games?I think consumers hate wasting screen space more than they could possibly love The Order.
Didn't people complain a lot about the Evil Within's black bars?This was a big argument with the launch of DVD when there were no 16:9 TVs available, widescreen really sucked "cause of the black bars" for some people. Today, the majority of films in theater (and bluray) are 2.35, most directors of photography love it. I've never seen anyone complain about this with bluray, so why would they complain with games?
I switched exclusively to a 2.35 screen many years ago, constant image height. It's about time somebody used this aspect ratio with a game that aims for a more cinematic quality. I admit it's a bit early for this, but I'm really happy they did.