KILLZONE Shadow Fall [PS4]

[Airon]

Perhaps you were having unrealistic expectations. This was always bound to happen at some point. Games have become so sophisticated and complex, that at some point, we are reaching dimishing returns. Newer, more powerful hardware offers more - but this difference is only visible in light of the full package - from visuals, to sound, to AI interaction and an all round slight increase in gameplay complexity.

Also, thanks to PC games already way ahead of what is being achieved on current generation hardware (PS3/360), we already had a fair idea of what to expect from the next generation. In the older days, consoles were closer matched to what was being achieved on PC, so every generational leap, the 'WOW' effect was bigger. Now, the transition is smoother, as we reach dimishing returns.

Looking at it from a different angle: We are getting an exciting new generation with easy-to-develop for hardware, hopefully more consistent framerates, better integrated online service, more HD-resolution and a higher quality of gaming across the board in boxes that will generate substantially less heat and consume less energy than what launch consoles did 8 years ago.

Sure, KZ still plays and looks like KZ (apart from the different art-direction) but here and there, there are some gems that sets it apart from what is doable on current gen. At the very least, the package as a whole is a lot better than what you can get on current gen. That to me sounds like a lot better deal than a game that has one or two 'revolutionary' new innovations but lacks in all other departments.

Well I was just discussing the graphic area, and again, I fail to see something truely nextgen here.

I am convinced that with lower screen resolution and lower texture KZ:SF could run on PS3 and X360.
Could someone please point me to some scene, gameplay, feature, special effect, cut-scene that could not be replicate on a PS3 or X360 ?

To me KZ:SF seems just a current-gen game in hi-res. No more no less.

Maybe the overall package, as you say, will be great.

But graphic wise, KZ, the franchise that for many year has meant the graphic showcase of Sony Platforms as deeply failed to impress me.

 

[Airon]

Pretty much any games on next gen will be doable on current gen systems if you lower the resolution and downgrade some of the effects.

Mmm, so you agree with me about KZ:SF ?

Well, in truth, not every game I have seen could be replicated on current-gen by simply lowering resolution and texture.

 

[Phil]

Mmm, so you agree with me about KZ:SF ?

Well, in truth, not every game I have seen could be replicated on current-gen by simply lowering resolution and texture.

Neither could KZ:SF. The last interview that was linked here about the A.I. clearly shows that a lot of effort has been put into things that use resources but can't be seen in still screenshots. More complex "smart" A.I. is hard to quantify as it's not something black on white that you can messure or compare. It's something you notice when you play.

Even so, the argument is pretty futile. Every game on any console within any generation is practically possible on the preceeding generation if you start downgrading it. GT5 is pretty much GT4. Sure, GT5 has a lot of physics etc, but given a large enough drop in visual quality, perhaps even framerate downgrade, you could get it to work on a PS2. As a package and in its entirety though, GT5 is not possible on PS2. You can pretty much apply this very example to pretty much any game within the 3d era.

Sure, the gap between next generation and this one is factually smaller - less silicon budget, equals less of a jump in dedicated logic. On the other hand, we are getting the consoles a bit cheaper, less noisy, less heat/energy consuming and it will pay back in a healthier business for the hardware vendors. I seriously don't know what you are expecting or what you want to hear.

Maybe you should wait until the console and the game is out and judge it then. Then again, this is only a launch game - developed to a large extend under tight time constraints on unfinished hardware with lacking libraries etc. You know, new hardware, new challenges and all.

I think people will high expectations seriously need to rewind a few years to this generations console launch. Anyone remember playing Resistance Fall of Man on PS3? It was pure awesomeness - HD resolution, online play - stacked against a console wit hgames before it that were practically a pixelated mess in comparison. Yet, what did RFOM offer over TimeSplitters (a shooter on PS2 for those that forgot). Nothing, besides the resolution and graphics (and online-play).

And yet, look at screens from back then and compare the graphics of RFOM to even what KZ2 later offered - or KZ3. Considering KZ:SF is one of the launch games, one can only speculate on how much more will be possible once developers have settled in to the new hardware. Sure, an easier to develop to console will not bring such a large step than what we have seen previously, but is that such a bad thing? It only means that we might be seeing more consistent quality titles across the board, from launch till the end of the consoles life.

 

[BoardBonobo]

I think people will high expectations seriously need to rewind a few years to this generations console launch. Anyone remember playing Resistance Fall of Man on PS3? It was pure awesomeness - HD resolution, online play - stacked against a console wit hgames before it that were practically a pixelated mess in comparison. Yet, what did RFOM offer over TimeSplitters (a shooter on PS2 for those that forgot). Nothing, besides the resolution and graphics (and online-play).

Ooh, that broken glass effect! That should have made it into more games.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

Taken with FrAPS from the footage, the footage is too low quality:

We need direct feed :^(

Character hair seems to be WIP still, KZ3 had better hair ( remember Rico :^P )

 

[RenegadeRocks]

Ooh, that broken glass effect! That should have made it into more games.

KZSF has breaking walls. BTW, Brothers in Arms Hells highway had it too, it still looks damn good.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

POM on tree bark looks fab. polygons can be seen up close, though.

 

[ultragpu]

I just love the layer of detail on the rocks and terrain whether due to the POM or very high res textures I don't know, but you can almost smell the soil as you wade through. I would probably add some alien mushrooms too.

 

[macabre]

Anyway, back on topic, I am still expecting someone to help me refuse the idea that KZ:SF is a current gen shooter in hi-res.

Just read the dokumentation about the game and add up all things that would have to be scaled down. Do you think the higher res assets use 10x the Video Memory alone ?

 

[Airon]

Well let's see, KZ does 99% of what Ryse does technically only with much better particle effects, bigger scale and more open level all at 1080p, 60fps in MP no less. To my eyes, KZ looks more next gen both on paper and in action.

Why do you need to bring ryse on this discussion?
Why are you trying to make this topic a "versus" topic?

 

[Betanumerical]

Why do you need to bring ryse on this discussion?
Why are you trying to make this topic a "versus" topic?

Hes bringing Ryse into the discussion because he finds it a bit odd that you find Ryse so next gen when KZ:SF does at least 99% of the same stuff and is decidedly 'last gen' would be my guess.

 

[patsu]

Well I was just discussing the graphic area, and again, I fail to see something truely nextgen here.

I am convinced that with lower screen resolution and lower texture KZ:SF could run on PS3 and X360.
Could someone please point me to some scene, gameplay, feature, special effect, cut-scene that could not be replicate on a PS3 or X360 ?

It can run at 720p and in 512MB RAM, just like running a high end PC game on Xbox360. But they will need to tone down the number of on-screen enemies (only 8 vs 24). Framerate dip, pop-in may also be present even at that lower res and textures on current gen consoles. Characters will also have lower poly count.

To me KZ:SF seems just a current-gen game in hi-res. No more no less.

Maybe the overall package, as you say, will be great.

But graphic wise, KZ, the franchise that for many year has meant the graphic showcase of Sony Platforms as deeply failed to impress me.

The visuals actually looks good, but the problem is it's lost its unique style in KZ2. ^_^

It's more than just hi-res KZ3 because you can RemotePlay this game, or capture a game video in the background automatically all the time. The level design is also more open, and there are supposed up to 4 times more on-screen full AI characters now without compromising the graphics. And this is just the beginning.

But these parameters are quite meaningless without playing the full game. The game experience will also depend on the fun factor, story, balance for MP, etc.

As with last gen, the developers can patch the game with more features later. Move integration was added last gen. GG mentioned that they will follow the users' feedback closely and tweak the game this time. As for camera + mic support and VR gaming, I suppose GG will be open to suggestions as long as these elements add enough to the gameplay.

Remember, a friend is supposed to be able to spectate a PS4 game like KZSF and help the player. We will probably see more later.

 

[Airon]

Taken with FrAPS from the footage, the footage is too low quality:

We need direct feed :^(

Character hair seems to be WIP still, KZ3 had better hair ( remember Rico :^P )

A part from the texture, that on real screen will be great (I assume), what is that strike you in these immages? The complexity of the characters? The scope? The dettails and the complexity of the environment? Which special effect?
A part for some good light effect (that I have already seens in this gen games) everything looks very current gen.

It is my opinion, it is what my eyes tell me. Do not hate me for that!

 

[Phil]

Well, in the end, even if such games are brought up in good faith and intentions, they still potentially derail the topic.

Lets just leave it at that, that Airon isn't as wowed as others. He doesn't need to be. I think all has been said, in that finite resources lead to compromises. It being among the first games to launch on new hardware, it's only natural that a lot of effort is going into better graphics and perhaps less of a jump in new gameplay aspects.

A shooter is still a shooter - and the core elements of a shooter are pretty much unchanged since way back when we played pixelated Wolfenstein. Everything since then has been a gradual improvement in A.I, more possibilites as a character, more open battles, more enemies, less corridors, better interaction with lights / shadows enabling stealth and strategic gameplay (which ties in with A.I.), online gameplay, weapons that interact with the environment, destructability etc.

If you want better more revolutionary gameplay, I guess it's better to look in other genres where innovation is more of a key-selling-point and where better hardware results in more innovative fresh gameplay.

 

[patsu]

Pictures are too low quality and too limited. Also doesn't show the dynamics of a game. Just from a quick look, nightshade will probably want to investigate the godrays. I will probably check out the scope and draw distance because the forest scene reminds me of the ill-fated and wide-open Lair. ;-)

There's that annoying lens flare, and also mist engulfing the forest. I hope GG tone down some of these if they have negative impact on the experience.

 

[patsu]

Sony are also positioning integrated social features as one of the PS4 benefits. Not sure if they are ready yet.

The KZSF demo so far doesn't tell us much about the game. That's the problem.

While I am happy they didn't spoil the game like previous marketing efforts, I expect at least some focus on the core combat behavior. The weapon and combat class descriptions cover a little of that but not enough !

 

[Airon]

Well, in the end, even if such games are brought up in good faith and intentions, they still potentially derail the topic.

Lets just leave it at that, that Airon isn't as wowed as others. He doesn't need to be. I think all has been said, in that finite resources lead to compromises. It being among the first games to launch on new hardware, it's only natural that a lot of effort is going into better graphics and perhaps less of a jump in new gameplay aspects.

A shooter is still a shooter - and the core elements of a shooter are pretty much unchanged since way back when we played pixelated Wolfenstein. Everything since then has been a gradual improvement in A.I, more possibilites as a character, more open battles, more enemies, less corridors, better interaction with lights / shadows enabling stealth and strategic gameplay (which ties in with A.I.), online gameplay, weapons that interact with the environment, destructability etc.

If you want better more revolutionary gameplay, I guess it's better to look in other genres where innovation is more of a key-selling-point and where better hardware results in more innovative fresh gameplay.

Phil, I just want to tell you that I really appreciate all your comments and post.

 

[kots]

Neither could KZ:SF. The last interview that was linked here about the A.I. clearly shows that a lot of effort has been put into things that use resources but can't be seen in still screenshots. More complex "smart" A.I. is hard to quantify as it's not something black on white that you can messure or compare. It's something you notice when you play.
Even so, the argument is pretty futile. Every game on any console within any generation is practically possible on the preceeding generation if you start downgrading it. GT5 is pretty much GT4. Sure, GT5 has a lot of physics etc, but given a large enough drop in visual quality, perhaps even framerate downgrade, you could get it to work on a PS2. As a package and in its entirety though, GT5 is not possible on PS2. You can pretty much apply this very example to pretty much any game within the 3d era.
Sure, the gap between next generation and this one is factually smaller - less silicon budget, equals less of a jump in dedicated logic. On the other hand, we are getting the consoles a bit cheaper, less noisy, less heat/energy consuming and it will pay back in a healthier business for the hardware vendors. I seriously don't know what you are expecting or what you want to hear.
Maybe you should wait until the console and the game is out and judge it then. Then again, this is only a launch game - developed to a large extend under tight time constraints on unfinished hardware with lacking libraries etc. You know, new hardware, new challenges and all.
And yet, look at screens from back then and compare the graphics of RFOM to even what KZ2 later offered - or KZ3. Considering KZ:SF is one of the launch games, one can only speculate on how much more will be possible once developers have settled in to the new hardware. Sure, an easier to develop to console will not bring such a large step than what we have seen previously, but is that such a bad thing? It only means that we might be seeing more consistent quality titles across the board, from launch till the end of the consoles life.

Good post , i agree with everything .
Problem is that current generation lasted too long and the jump to next gen , tech wise , isn't what we expected . But less energy consumption etc is not bad at all .
Now KZSF looks just fine , but there isn't a wow factor,,, how could it be when we 've played Crysis 3 on pc at >1080p . But that's acceptable and for being a launch title , it's good - in fact , very good .

 

[Delta9]

Wow,the game looks amazing !! At one part in the video the developer said textures have increased 4x since E3 and you can definitely see it in the clothing and rocks.Some nice destruction too.

 

[AlNom]

Move on folks.