Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[ShadowRunner]

Precisely, which I think would be a Bad Move. What's wrong with offering the best of all worlds? I would like to see props/controllers in Natal for more natural gaming for those games that will benefit, and of course controller-less gaming for the 'broader' market.

I would prefer that also. Im afraid MS may prefer to define controller-less gaming as clearly superior though, something that would be undermined if the games with controllers end up being the superior experience.

MS may think they will sell better if they go strictly controller-less and be solely dedicated to that regardless of how game quality is effected, and i think they may well be right.

 

[patsu]

There won't be a blacklash if they do a "transformer" controller; or if they want to take more risk, a glove. In fact, they can also replace their media remote control if they want to.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

In fact, they can also replace their media remote control if they want to.

That's a good idea. Extend the media remote to a Wiimote type device, and it'll be a great Trojan controller.

I can understand MS wanting to establish a discrete identity, a strong brand like Wii has, which stands apart from the other experiences. That might be the best way to tap into the Wii crowd. I'm not sure PSMotion will manage to pinch any of that mindshare. It'll just be a shame for their existing gamers. Halo/Gears would be far better with a proper gun then pointing a finger and shouting 'ratatatatat!' Uncharted 2 with PSMotion could be awesome.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Well, I think it rather depends.

MS isn't exactly promoting a controller less interface for the sake of being a controller less interface.

Their push with Natal is a control scheme (in this case using gestures and body movement) that is more intuitive/natural for someone that has no experience in gaming.

I think that's something a bit hard for anyone on this forum to visualize since we've all used controllers of one sort or another so much that it has become the natural way to interact. Mouse and Keyboard for FPS for example is extremely counter-intuitive and unnatural when you first start to learn it. It's only through repitition and persistence that your body and brain adapt and make it natural.

All that is to say that what seems like a natural method of control for us here on the forums might be completely counter-intuitive to the primary market MS is targetting with Natal.

That said. I'm pretty sure if there was a physical device "add-on" that MS feels fits into this natural control scheme they'll consider adding it.

PS3's system is definitely catering more to the crowd that is already at least somewhat experience in console gaming. As witnessed by their making PS3 Wand similar to traditional controllers and leveraging those console reflexes that people have picked up over the years while console gaming.

MS is going in a totally different direction by primarily targetting those people with very little or no experience with console gaming.

If they execute well on this, it's very likely that those with no console experience will feel much more at home and at east with Natal than those people with lots of console experience. In that case, they've hit their target right on.

In other words, I think we have to accept the fact that PS3 wand is more targetted at the people that would frequent this forum for examle. While Natal is targetted at us only indirectly or possibly not at all...

Either way I'm still far more excited by Natal's controllerless experience than any scheme using a physical controller as the central piece of the control scheme. Especially as the Natal scheme translates well to devices beyond consoles. Computers, DVD/BluRay stand alone devices, TVs, Air Conditioners, House Lighting, etc...

In other words, depending on implementation, the Natal concept can easily be expanded to universal control of just about anything. Whether it ever goes there, who knows. But I like thinking about it. Coming home and using a hand gesture (a wave for example) coupled with saying "Lights on" (combination to avoid inadvertently activating lights on when not intended) to turn the lights on would be inestimably cool. And since Natal can already "see" in the dark, it would be possible to implement assuming Natal is also useable with a computer.

Regards,
SB

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think that's something a bit hard for anyone on this forum to visualize since we've all used controllers of one sort or another so much that it has become the natural way to interact.

I disagree. Anyone with experience of Eyetoy knows how some controllerless gameplay can work, and it's not a huge leap to imagine advances on that. Plus any of us can sit/stand in front of a TV and pretend to be playing tennis or driving a car or whatever motions Natal might ask of us.

All that is to say that what seems like a natural method of control for us here on the forums might be completely counter-intuitive to the primary market MS is targetting with Natal...

Except that, as Sony's research reportedly showed, having a device to interact with, to have something to hold in your hand, is more natural than not. Okay, it's not a big deal. Anyone can pretend to have a gun or sword or tennis racquet and wave them around. But still, the gun idea makes a lot more sense with an object and a trigger or button than not. Tennis racquet too, I'd say. And that's different from conventional controller experience. Thumbstick skills won't help you in pointing a gun at a screen and pulling a trigger. Those motions are as intuive as an simple tool, no harder than working a remote (Wii's big success in design).

In other words, I think we have to accept the fact that PS3 wand is more targetted at the people that would frequent this forum for examle. While Natal is targetted at us only indirectly or possibly not at all...

Wouldn't it be better for MS and XB360 if they extended Natal to include a controller though? Why exclude the 'gamer' market if Natal can serve both markets?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I'm not sure they are excluding the market as much as they are focusing on the other market opportunities.

And at least according to MS market research, people with little to no console experience find traditional console controls a bit daunting.

It may be going a bit overboard in trying to be attractive to those types of people (IE - attempting to expand the market to those who previously had little to no interest in consoles).

I'm also not sure if it precludes the use of pick-up props. And could imagine a game including physical props, assuming Natal has the ability to recognize those or if it has the ability to allow devs to program it to recognize those.

Additionally nothing precludes you from using any of the current physical controllers simultaneously with Natal.

So for example, if a game dev wanted, they could do a Time Crisis shooter on rails and include a light gun accessory. Natal could track ducking and popping up to shoot over cover while the light gun takes care of aiming and shooting. Natal could additionally take head or body movements to adjust the view left or right.

Either way, while Natal itself is designed for entirely controller less inputs, nothing precludes anyone from using any type of esoteric controller with it (wands, guns, bats, guitars, drums, whatever).

However, Natal itself is mainly targetted at those who haven't picked up a HD console yet and arguably those that haven't picked up a Wii yet either. For the rest, Natal combined with special controllers is certainly possible.

Hell, if someone wanted they could do a Natal Dance-Dance Revolution type game with hula hoop accessories. Maybe an Xbox XBLA online multiplayer Twister game!

Regards,
SB

 

[Prophecy2k]

I simply wonder how successful MS and Natal will end up being in trying to capture this "phantom" market yet untouched by the likes of Sony with the eyetoy or nintendo with the Wii-mote...?

Surely if this market hasn't been captured by eyetoy or Wii-mote, what makes MS think that these types of people are even interested in gaming full stop? Of those that aren't but could be woo'd by the prospect of a minority report type control over the multimedia functions of the Xbox 360, I'm not convinced that these people would rush out and buy an Xbox for such.

Personally, I think one of the biggest things working against MS and Natal in this regard is their prevalent reputation of being a "video games console for the Halo crowd"... I'm not sure they'll be able to over-come public perception of the Xbox to capture a principally non-gaming market with Natal alone.

The way I see it is that those who have little to no gaming experience at all, probably don't really want to play video games. I'd even go as far as to say that a good part of the Wii's success was not in capturing the phantom non-gaming crowd, but rather in recapturing a crowd that once play mario and Zelda yet "grew out of gaming" when it became "too hardcore".

I personally don't see Natal being all that successful outside of the core experienced gaming market looking for a new gaming FAD.

That's all my opinion.

 

[Rolf N]

I think that's something a bit hard for anyone on this forum to visualize since we've all used controllers of one sort or another so much that it has become the natural way to interact. Mouse and Keyboard for FPS for example is extremely counter-intuitive and unnatural when you first start to learn it. It's only through repitition and persistence that your body and brain adapt and make it natural.

The hand and fingers are the optimum interface. There's no other part of the body with the same density of nerves dedicated to it, with the same sensitivity and level of fine motor control, the same speed and the same tolerance for repeated motion.

Anyone can learn to do stuff with their hands and fingers. A gob-smack huge chunk of your brain is dedicated to these two little wonders.

Even if you start from zero, learning to be fast and precise with your fingers is much easier than moving your forearm or even more of your body to get things done. Watch any person who writes and see how the motions of the pen are performed. People could use the forearm or the wrists but good luck finding someone who does.
All you get from bigger motions is more fatigue, less precision.

Accessibility to the masses is just a way to pitch an ineffective choice. Look at any random remote lying around your house minus Wii remote. They all have tons of buttons (and they are invariably lighter and more comfortable to hold than a Wii remote, too). They aren't inaccessible at all. Buttons do not intimidate people. People are actually just fine with using the subsets they understand and explore from there.

 

[betan]

The hand and fingers are the optimum interface. There's no other part of the body with the same density of nerves dedicated to it, with the same sensitivity and level of fine motor control, the same speed and the same tolerance for repeated motion.

well, there is always the tongue

 

[liolio]

I'm not that anxious about Natal, the fact that it comes to PC too set the deal for me.
No matter what is its use in the gaming space, I feel that Mr.Wada (Square Enix CEO) got it right it will become a standard.

 

[Prophecy2k]

I'm not that anxious about Natal, the fact that it comes to PC too set the deal for me.
No matter what is its use in the gaming space, I feel that Mr.Wada (Square Enix CEO) got it right it will become a standard.

Source?

 

[obonicus]

well, there is always the tongue

Lips are good too -- as a bonus, you can teach your pony to play, too.

 

[liolio]

Source?

It's been confirmed a while ago by Gates himself.

 

[patsu]

Yap, a tech like Natal is great for a general UI platform. I can see how it's useful to take computing to new areas.

Like what Wada mentioned above, games that use motion control are quite difficult to design. Natal will have inherent advantage in novelty (The hands-free "magic"), 3D imaging and in general robustness regardless of lighting conditions. Ultimately, it's the applications/games that deliver.

If MS plays their cards right, they can certainly differentiate themselves more from Sony. At high level, they will be similar to each other (e.g., Natal may have controllers via third party or MS themselves for many specific games that need them), but in philosophy and the way things are done, I think they will become further and further apart.

EDIT: As for Sony, personally I think the hold of the new controller and the light ball are important to overcome PS Eye's limitations and expand its reach. The hold needs to be comfortable and effective, so much so that people feel something is missing without it. The active light (visible and invisible) can help to overcome the lighting condition in the room and also generate ambient effects. The rumble, gyro and accelerometer are already in place since SIXAXIS. While they help to make motion sensing precise, sensitive and "real", they may not stand out as much -- unless they have a boatload of control mechanism in place (from mid-air flailing to desktop mouse). These are generally most obvious when applied in a real app.

 

[liolio]

Yap, a tech like Natal is great for a general UI platform. I can see how it's useful to take computing to new areas.

Like what Wada mentioned above, games that use motion control are quite difficult to design. Natal will have inherent advantage in novelty (The hands-free "magic"), 3D imaging and in general robustness regardless of lighting conditions. Ultimately, it's the applications/games that deliver.

If MS plays their cards right, they can certainly differentiate themselves more from Sony. At high level, they will be similar to each other (e.g., Natal may have controllers via third party or MS themselves for many specific games that need them), but in philosophy and the way things are done, I think they will become further and further apart.

I'm not sure that game are the problem for MS if I were to take a bet I would bet that Ms gave Natal and the surrounding environment development to their usual loss leading division which is not to say that in the end games are that important for this project. Games are a part of this project, but the overall project is bigger and potentially juicier than games alone.

 

[ShadowRunner]

I think sony can steal a lot of Natals thunder with clever marketing. With there face tracking as a point of reference i think they can do some basic skeletal tracking in 2d without controllers and 3d with info from the wands. Even if it only works in ideal conditions showing this in Nintendo-esque adverts where it seems to work perfectly could take a lot away from Natals percieved uniqueness among the masses.

 

[liolio]

I think sony can steal a lot of Natals thunder with clever marketing. With there face tracking as a point of reference i think they can do some basic skeletal tracking in 2d without controllers and 3d with info from the wands. Even if it only works in ideal conditions showing this in Nintendo-esque adverts where it seems to work perfectly could take a lot away from Natals percieved uniqueness among the masses.

Tough job tho when the thing will launch on 360 and almost simultaneously on 360 and PC/7 along with most likely a crazy high marketing budget.

 

[patsu]

I'm not sure that game are the problem for MS if I were to take a bet I would bet that Ms gave Natal and the surrounding environment development to their usual loss leading division which is not to say that in the end games are that important for this project. Games are a part of this project, but the overall project is bigger and potentially juicier than games alone.

Well in our context, it's the most important problem because without games, there is very little reason other than media playback for Natal or Sony's new controller to exist on the consoles.

If we want to generalize for all, several PS Eye or rather image-based, rumble and motion sensing technologies are juicy and applicable to a variety of non-gaming problems too (including remote surgery for real).

EDIT: In terms of approach, MS is likely to take the horizontal, all-encompassing approach to (re)define the computing experience. Sony will probably be title by title.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Accessibility to the masses is just a way to pitch an ineffective choice. Look at any random remote lying around your house minus Wii remote. They all have tons of buttons (and they are invariably lighter and more comfortable to hold than a Wii remote, too). They aren't inaccessible at all. Buttons do not intimidate people. People are actually just fine with using the subsets they understand and explore from there.

Heh, you're remote analogy isn't a good choice. Many people only use the remote for On/Off, Volume, and Channel change. If it's a media player remote add in Play, stop, and FF/RW. Despite the fact that there's often upteen million (gross exaggeration, yes) buttons to do a zillion things.

For quite a few, yes, all those buttons ARE daunting. It's one of the reasons universal remotes with fewer and larger buttons generally outsell universal remotes with many buttons. You won't be able to access all the features of all your devices, but people find comfort in the fact that it's simple and not "confusing" as some have complained to me.

Who knows whether Natal will be successful in the console arena. I think it will. But that's just a small fraction of what makes me excited about Natal. It's the possible applications for the system beyond console gaming. Everything from UI control, media playback control, computer control and by extension house fixtures control.

I'm already looking forward to being able to use say one hand in mid-air to move the view area around in an RTS rather than having to use the keyboard for example.

Improved ability to control things without having to use a keyboard for photo viewing and manipulation would be grand also. I could go on and on.

Limited strictly to games ONLY, then yeah, all the motion controllers get closer in appeal. But even then I still get more excited about the possibility of Hands Free + Physical controller if a dev wishes to add one.

Regards,
SB

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I think sony can steal a lot of Natals thunder with clever marketing. With there face tracking as a point of reference i think they can do some basic skeletal tracking in 2d without controllers and 3d with info from the wands. Even if it only works in ideal conditions showing this in Nintendo-esque adverts where it seems to work perfectly could take a lot away from Natals percieved uniqueness among the masses.

Color me a bit skeptical on that. Especially if games start to use more and more of the SPE's potential, that doesn't leave much for skeletal tracking (no depth so only in 2 dimensions), advanced facial recognition, etc.

That said however, it wouldn't be a problem for Sony to limit its application to simpler/less graphics and physics demanding games.

Regards,
SB