"Yes, but how many polygons?" An artist blog entry with interesting numbers

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Farid, Sep 1, 2007.

  1. TapamN

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    Doesn't look like I can post.
     
  2. xaeroxcore

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    What´s up guys! i´d like to ask you, specifically to Cloofoofoo and the other people who is posting great tech data and polycount numbers lately, if i can share some of your work on my facebook page? i have a small facebook fanpage and group for gaming news, gameplays, reviews and stuff, and should be nice to show gamers from my country (Colombia, Latin America) some of your findings.
     
  3. Cloofoofoo

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    Sorry I tried reposting the request, nothing. I guess you can try pming the admit I think his name is melf or something like that .Sorry , I tried.

    You can do what you wish. Personally I don't care for credit, post away.
     
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  4. Cloofoofoo

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    So Not really polygon count but I think its pertinent information. I went back to f1 racing championship on the dreamcast and replaced what I thought was the bump map for the road and grass just to confirm the game uses bumpmapping . And yes it does, the road and grass became bick like. huh, I guess many games on the dc could be using bumpmapping but we wouldnt know at all because for some reason its not noticeable . Could have been cool to see on character models.

    Original:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Changed the bump map to a more noticeable texture:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Shifty Geezer

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    Just looks like a secondary detail texture to me. I don't see any indicator it's reacting to light (although that's hard to see in static shots!).
     
  6. Cloofoofoo

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    They used it as a "detail" texture but it's applied using the hardware's bumpmapping feature... If the lighting is static or not is irrelevant, I told you this before. Try running on dc emulators early version that support multi texture but don't support bumpmap, it won't appear. That's why I took the shot on demul because I knew it supported the Dreamcast bumpmap feature, can't get more clear than that.anyway seeing how the lighting is probably a static directional light it isn't going to shift.

    Not to mention the devs themselves said they applied bump mapping which is why I went snooping around.
     
  7. idsn6

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    Try using this image: [​IMG]
     
  8. milk

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    I don't see anything in thas screenshot that tells me that texture is behaving like a normal map and not just as a simple alpha overlay blending in black. Maybe just doing a Multiply there...
     
  9. Nesh

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    without changes in lighting direction it is almost if not totally, impossible to understand if thats a bump mapping
     
  10. Shifty Geezer

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    Mostly. However, you should see variance in brightness based on light direction, whereas here, the variance just maps the variance of the bump texture. Also, the darks shouldn't be any darker than the base texture, as the blacks of the bump map should just represent no bump. A true bump map would range in brightness from road's base grey (times whatever ambient light setting) to bright where the light hits is. If you notice the original asphalt texture, it ranges from white to grey, not black, which is what you'd have in a multiply-blend detail texture.

    That said, I accept it's possible the hardware is using a bump-map path but isn't very good at it because stuff was pretty kludgy back then. It might be the replacement bump texture isn't appropriate, and it may be more obvious with a replacement texture that mirrors the white/grey binary values of the texture it is replacing. The first image looks more like bumps than a secondary texture.
     
  11. jlippo

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    Bump mapping is possibly something similar to embos bump mapping which is really not that effective.
     
  12. xaeroxcore

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    Is there anyway to insert a texture that actually reacts to light?
     
  13. milk

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    Allegedly, that's how DC normalmaps are supposed to behave.
     
  14. Cloofoofoo

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    What? The lighting placement is hard coded .I can change the bumpmap texture but I cant do anything about the light probably being static.
     
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  15. TapamN

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    I doubt that's a normal map. It doesn't look what I would expect a spherical coordinate normal map to look like, nor is it a cartesian normal map. It's probably a detail texture. While it's technically possible for the emulator to implement normal maps by precalculating the lighting and generating a unique texture for each lightning variation, or integrating the normals into a height map or something, it would be way easier and more efficient to implement the normal map by just doing the lighting in a shader.

    Can you try dumping Shenmue II's normal maps through the emulator to see what it converts them to? I know what those are supposed to look like, and it would be a good reference to see how the emulator handles normal maps. (Rayman II also supposedly uses normal maps, and it looks like the US/EU version of Sega Rally 2 might be using a normal map for the background of the menus, but the raw textures of those haven't been dumped AFAIK.)

    (Also, it looks like I can post on Sega-16 now, thanks.)
     
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  16. Cloofoofoo

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    I'll look into Rayman. For shenmue someone else already extracted the normal map texture for the coin in the shenmue forum. I'll attach it. Any suggestions u got of games that might use it , let me know.

    Good to hear you can post now.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Cloofoofoo

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    Went straight to the heart of the matter. Someone had released the sega katana demos including the multiple bumpmap demo. So on nulldc I could see all the use textures loaded excluding the bumpmap. So when you check the output it says unhandled texture(per bumpmap trying to load . I guess it discards any bumpmap texture.) I guess you guys called it , its a detail texture. Interestingly Rayman 2 gets the unhandled texture error so I guess it uses bumpmaps (seems like two textures) while f1 racing championship gets no errors like that.

    Incorrect:
    [​IMG]

    Correct:
    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Cloofoofoo

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    Next game is a pachinko sim for the dreamcast. Its called Pachinko no Dendou CR Nanashi. Only has one 3d model for the whole game, the pachinko machine. The pellets are 2d.


    Pachinko no Dendou CR Nanashi - Dreamcast

    Pachinko machine - 15,572 triangles

    [​IMG]
     
  19. milk

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    I'm going to share this excellent website called noclip.website that allows one to visualize level maps of many games right on the browser. Some of the games even have working animated character models in there.

    It has got many Zelda and Mario Titltes there in full, All PS2-era GTA games, Okami, Psychonauts, Half Life 2 and more. Everyone should give it a check.

    https://noclip.website/

    Here is an interview where the author, Jasper, explains a little about the project and it's history. The video concentrates mostly on Wind Waker, but they talk a lot about noclip.website during the introduction.



    Enjoy.
     
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  20. Cloofoofoo

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    Karous - dreamcast, ps2 , wii by Milestone

    (all enemy / player models dont have outlines, those are added when the game runs)

    Player unit - 937 triangles
    [​IMG]

    Regular enemy 1 - 152 triangles
    [​IMG]

    Regular enemy 2 - 328 triangles
    [​IMG]

    Island chunk of stage 1 - 4,512 triangles
    [​IMG]

    Chunk of stage 3 - 3,280 triangles
    [​IMG]

    chunk of stage4 - 4,363 triangles
    [​IMG]
     
    #1960 Cloofoofoo, Oct 23, 2020 at 11:59 AM
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020 at 12:06 PM
    PSman1700 and jlippo like this.
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