"Yes, but how many polygons?" An artist blog entry with interesting numbers

[Cloofoofoo]

Baking lighting allows for higher quality lighting. Depending on how the T&L code is written, there's not much difference between a single parallel light and baked in terms of speed, but the baked could look a lot better.

The raw polygon counts for some rooms seem like they might be hard to pull off. The 67k polygon room (it doesn't actually look like that much in that screenshot, but whatever) would have trouble running on the Dreamcast. The CPU load wouldn't be a problem if you settle for 30 FPS, but the amount of video memory needed to store the scene buffer would be difficult to work around. I would estimate it could use up to something like 2400 KB to 2700 KB of video RAM. Since you also need space for any character models, and the scene buffer is double buffered, you'd actually need over double that space, and there'd be no room left for textures left after the frame buffer gets factored in.

The estimate is worst case, though, when the entire map is visible. Only on screen polygons are stored by the hardware. If you're in the middle of the room, and you can't see the entire room at once, you wouldn't need nearly as much space. The problem would be when you begin to enter the room or stand in a corner, and pretty much the entire room model is in the screen boundaries at the same time.

If the engine had a good culling system to avoid submitting and storing geometry that can't be seen, it could still be possible. Like portal culling, so if you're entering the room, and parts of the map that are in the view frustum but can't be seen through the door, the parts you can't see are discarded. Another thing that would help would be manual backface culling on chunks of geometry, like if the map has a balcony, and the camera is looking towards it, but is below it, you can skip rendering the floor polygons of the balcony, even though it's in the frustum, since it would be facing away from the camera.

I doubt Sega's PVR driver supported this, but another way to get high per-frame polygons counts without giant scene buffers would be to run would be to macrotile the frame. Instead of storing the entire frame's polygons double buffered, you render part of the screen at a time (like half or a quarter), so you don't need room for the entire thing at once. You'd lose some performance, but save a lot of RAM.

Well it might not look it but soul reaver 2 took the same approach as part 1. Basically they subdivided the stages to make them polygon dense to get the baked in lighting in vertex color to look good. Ill post a wireframe. Well I know your always one dev yourself for answers on the dc hardware so Ill link you to level files for the lion room and the spectral realm so you can see it yourself. And baking the lighting would still allow to use a dynamic lightsource right if they wanted yeah?( i see one of the shots raziel has a point light attached to him)

They made sure their talking point was that this game ran 60 fps on dc so they must have had a very good culling system. You made me curious though so I ran it by the ps2 emulator with the vertex counter( yeah i know emulators arent too reliable) and it showed that it ran about 11k to 25k vertices per frame , so definitely alot of culling but it wasnt affecting the distance as you can see from end to end. I remember the homebrew dev of the lmp3d engine when working on his dreamcast branch mentioned he only double buffered the vertex buffer at 60 fps for optimal performance( which got him around 26k triangles) but at 30 fps he didnt need to and estimated he could comfortably do around 40k triangles per frame. So it isnt always needed isnt it?

Lion room : https://www.mediafire.com/file/yvba204vhic2k3j/airtemple2.7z/file
Spectral realm air temple: https://www.mediafire.com/file/fjhbxqfd9esp3uh/airtempspectral.7z/file

lion room wireframe:

Spectral room wireframe:

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Resident Evil : the mercenaries 3d - nintendo 3ds
This game assets were truely surprising. I guess the normal maps give a high level of detail because polygon count wise I would bet its below 2 million polygons a second (30 fps game). Everything and pretty much almost everything has lods , though their max models arent that high. Even the maps are smaller and lower than I thought. The weapons are only a few hundred triangles but even then they have 2 or 3 lvls of lod lowering it more.

Wesker(player): Hi lod - 3,660 triangles, med lod - 2,216 triangles, low lod - 957 triangles

Hunk - hi lod - 3,758 triangles, low lod - 898 triangles

Jill - hi lod - 3,933 triangles, med lod - 2,178 triangles low lod - 1,010 triangles

Grunt with weapon : hi lod - 1,062 triangles, low lod - 362 triangles

executioner boss - hi lod - 2,163 triangles, low lod - 1,281 triangles

BOW boss( he appears only by himself in game) - 7,500 triangles

Spanish castle - 20,603 triangles

african town - 25,379 triangles

 

[xaeroxcore]

Resident Evil : the mercenaries 3d - nintendo 3ds
This game assets were truely surprising. I guess the normal maps give a high level of detail because polygon count wise I would bet its below 2 million polygons a second (30 fps game). Everything and pretty much almost everything has lods , though their max models arent that high. Even the maps are smaller and lower than I thought. The weapons are only a few hundred triangles but even then they have 2 or 3 lvls of lod lowering it more.

Wesker(player): Hi lod - 3,660 triangles, med lod - 2,216 triangles, low lod - 957 triangles

Hunk - hi lod - 3,758 triangles, low lod - 898 triangles

Jill - hi lod - 3,933 triangles, med lod - 2,178 triangles low lod - 1,010 triangles

Grunt with weapon : hi lod - 1,062 triangles, low lod - 362 triangles

executioner boss - hi lod - 2,163 triangles, low lod - 1,281 triangles

BOW boss( he appears only by himself in game) - 7,500 triangles

Spanish castle - 20,603 triangles

african town - 25,379 triangles

Is amazing what normal maps can do. Mercenaries and specially Revelations looks better than any DC, PSP and PS2 game, despite having an average 128 bit game geometry. But also the different LOD technique is a very smart way to save resources and still show great visuals. Clever art direction!!! By the Way, @Cloofoofoo i know we can be a little bothersome with our request, but please try to find numbers of Headhunter...i´m sure this game can provide usefull information about DC and PS2 geometry from back in the day.

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Virtua Tennis 2/ Tennis 2k2 - Dreamcast version

Tedious to extract, reminds of resident evil 4 or the mercenaries 3d in that it uses a ton of morph target for hands. Uses a lod on heads for upclose or gameplay. Small number of stages had less detailed version meant for doubles( 2vs 2) that removes some details from the arena. Some of the shadows are modeled in, smart. These are pretty high numbers considering they pan out to show the whole stage before and after the match.

Serena williams ( hi lod): 2,183 triangles

Haas(gameplay lod): 1,758 triangles

USA: 30,156 triangles

Secret stage: 28,846 triangles

Rio( doubles ): 17,225 triangles

 

[Cloofoofoo]

18 wheeler - Dreamcast version

I knew the game looked pretty , I guess because it uses a decent amount of polygons. The trucks are about up close to 2,000 triangles. The trailers seem to range from 3,000 to 4,000 after you get rid of duplitcate meshes. Thats alot for just the truck + cargo. Single player arcade features very long tracks that are very detailed but does has noticable distance culling. traffic cars range from about 100 to 500 triangles.While parking mode tracks are much lower and dont distance cull. Theres also screenplay tracks that around the same in detail compared to parking mode. This is a naomilib game so I used that to extract it.

Asphault cowboy - 1,790 triangles

gas trailer - 2,872 triangles

Arcade mode stage 1 - 97,046 triangles

Arcade mode stage 4 - 48,287 triangles

splitscreen mode stage 4 - 14, 359 triangles

parking mode challange stage 3 - 13,345 triangles

 

[xaeroxcore]

Virtua Tennis 2/ Tennis 2k2 - Dreamcast version

Tedious to extract, reminds of resident evil 4 or the mercenaries 3d in that it uses a ton of morph target for hands. Uses a lod on heads for upclose or gameplay. Small number of stages had less detailed version meant for doubles( 2vs 2) that removes some details from the arena. Some of the shadows are modeled in, smart. These are pretty high numbers considering they pan out to show the whole stage before and after the match.

Serena williams ( hi lod): 2,183 triangles

Haas(gameplay lod): 1,758 triangles

USA: 30,156 triangles

Secret stage: 28,846 triangles

Rio( doubles ): 17,225 triangles

Stages has important amount of polys....On the other hand, can´t belive characters arent even 3K polys...Hi LODs of just +2k polys, but they look incredible for the time...I thought they were near to 5K...Great job and artistic diection!

18 wheeler - Dreamcast version

I knew the game looked pretty , I guess because it uses a decent amount of polygons. The trucks are about up close to 2,000 triangles. The trailers seem to range from 3,000 to 4,000 after you get rid of duplitcate meshes. Thats alot for just the truck + cargo. Single player arcade features very long tracks that are very detailed but does has noticable distance culling. traffic cars range from about 100 to 500 triangles.While parking mode tracks are much lower and dont distance cull. Theres also screenplay tracks that around the same in detail compared to parking mode. This is a naomilib game so I used that to extract it.

Asphault cowboy - 1,790 triangles

gas trailer - 2,872 triangles

Arcade mode stage 1 - 97,046 triangles

Arcade mode stage 4 - 48,287 triangles

splitscreen mode stage 4 - 14, 359 triangles

parking mode challange stage 3 - 13,345 triangles

18 Wheeler is geometry powerhouse!!!! I´m sure Headhunter or Propeller Arena can be equally surprising!! I don´t know why those games were overlooked at the time in the graphics department....Clearly they were titles more technologically advanced and demanding than DC games praised by its graphics commonly, like Soul Calibur (which i love, but DOA 2 is miles away better in the tech area) or Sonic Adventure.

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Daytona 2001 - Dreamcast - Amusement Vision / genki
Game has alot of car body duplicates for lod and damage modeling, internal view.

Secret online car- 1,408 triangles


Secret rocket car- 1,183 triangles


Seaside Galaxy track - 48,352 triangles



Mermaid lake track - 25,400 triangles

 

[xaeroxcore]

Daytona 2001 - Dreamcast - Amusement Vision / genki
Game has alot of car body duplicates for lod and damage modeling, internal view.

Secret online car- 1,408 triangles
View attachment 6812

Secret rocket car- 1,183 triangles
View attachment 6811

Seaside Galaxy track - 48,352 triangles
View attachment 6810


Mermaid lake track - 25,400 triangles
View attachment 6809

1,4K polys is the highest car LOD ingame? is way low....always thought cars were around 3K in this game....Stages in other hand seems way complex...

 

[Cloofoofoo]

1,4K polys is the highest car LOD ingame? is way low....always thought cars were around 3K in this game....Stages in other hand seems way complex...

How so? Its average. Most of the time dreamcast main characters range from 1k to 1.8k. Of course some games go higher like 18 wheeler but its not really the norm.

Not to mention if you look at the game it runs in flawless 60 fps( with very far draw distances) and used a bunch of environment maps and specular highlights on the player car. Along with decals for stuff on the side.

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Vermilion Desert - Dreamcast
Interesting slow strategy game. you seem to be able to keep large groups of armored soldiers, i saw 11 of them. They other soldiers, tanks and even big mechs( multiple of them).

on of the player character( no armor) : 803 triangles

armored character : 998 triangles

another armored : 1,034 triangles

giant mech : 1,707 triangles

another giant mech : 2,165 triangles

stage : 9,668 triangles

another stage : 8,849 triangles

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Ranger Mission - Atomiswave/ Dreamcast - 2004
Light gun shooter with very detailed stages.

Player/squad soldier - 1,346 triangles

regular enemy - 528 triangles

helicopter enemy - 1,593 triangles

embassy exterior - 18,514 triangles

embassy interior - 23,037 triangles

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Demolish Fist - Atomiswave/Dreamcast - 2003
A nice looking beat them up , well modeled even with the polycount. By dimps. Can have many enemies on screen.

Chimps( regular enemy) - 700 triangles

Berserker(regular enemy) : 931 triangles

Bloody Tumor Alkanide( mid boss) : 3,559 triangles

Senator Kain Murasame (final boss phase 1) : 1,278 triangles

8 ( final boss phase 2) - 3,806 triangles

Leoneed Burns(player, cutscene model ) : 2,704 triangles

Leoneed Burns (player, gameplay ): 1,200 triangles

Stage 1 Appollonia , part 2 : 9,468 triangles

Final boss phase 1 room : 11,522 triangles

 

[PSman1700]

Ranger Mission - Atomiswave/ Dreamcast - 2004
Light gun shooter with very detailed stages.

Player/squad soldier - 1,346 triangles

regular enemy - 528 triangles

helicopter enemy - 1,593 triangles

embassy exterior - 18,514 triangles

embassy interior - 23,037 triangles

Thats actually quite a good model of the Mi24, wonder how the one in MGS stacks up.

 

[xaeroxcore]

Great numbers, as usual! In Demolish Fists, DIMPS could have put a little extra effort in the gameplay character model, because ingame, you can really see the difference between the cutscene model and ingame model, when there is some close ups at the beginning of every stage and when you make special movements....Yes, i know is not AAA game, it also has good lighting, plenty of enemies on screen, lotta geometry for backgrounds, and looks like everything is 60 fps, but playable characters with blocky hands in 2004 on 128 bit hardware was kind of embarrassing. PSP has shown us you can make character models with +1K and less than 2K polys and hide the "blockyness"... For example, the Gameplay model of Snake from MGS Peace Walker (+1,9K polys?)looks way better than the +2,7K polys cutscene main character model from Demolish Fists...

Anyway, i´m glad i can enjoy this and other Atomoswave goodness on my DC (even though game always crashes for me at third stage i guess? i don´t remember well, i´ll test it on the next days to verify....i play it via DreamShell SD Reader on Serial Port)

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Ferrari F355 challenge ( more info) - dreamcast

Last time I did the cars, player car was almost 2,500 triangles with out tires, highest lod cpu car was almost 1,900 triangles without tires. Now its the tracks turns. interesting high detailed tracks, especially coupled with the fact the game has been hacked to force 3rd person view even in splitscreen.

Motegi - 16,241 triangles

monza - 44,159 triangles

long beach - 42,814 triangles

 

[Nesh]

This game was also released on PS2. I wonder if there are any differences.
Also I wonder how close the DC version was to the arcade version

 

[Cloofoofoo]

This game was also released on PS2. I wonder if there are any differences.
Also I wonder how close the DC version was to the arcade version

To naomi ? Probably exactly the same models, after the dc version is still running naomi library model format/graphics library. The difference usually comes in the textures where the dreamcast version usually downsizes the texture resolution or compresses it.( sometimes they dont bother for naomi)

 

[Cloofoofoo]

RingOut 4x4 - Sega Naomi

Very pretty game, a few stages uses render to texture reflection, rare to see on dc based hardware. In general the cars are 3,000 triangles (at highest low lod about 1.3k triangles) about, always 4 of them on screen except for boss stage. stages seem to range from 5k to over 20k triangles. Hi lods have interior modeled. Naomilib game.

High LOD ( Cinematics, gameplay when camera is very close, Replays) : 2,992 triangles

Low LOD( gameplay when camera is far): 1,296 triangles

Stage ( its actually missing some small props so its likely slightly higher) : 22,122 triangles

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Mobile Suit Gundam : Federation vs Zeon - Naomi/Dreamcast

Another naomi lib game. This one was easier to extract. In general the mobile suits range from 2,000 to 2,700 triangles. If they use separate weapons they have a seperate posed hand with the weapon included. Stages are very low around 3k to 4k triangles in general. The ships and mobile armor range from 1,3k to 2.6k triangles.

Gundam rx-78 : 2,333 triangles

Red Comet Zaku 2 : 2,422 triangles

GunCannon - 2,598 triangles

Zgok - 2,524 triangles

Zeon ship - 2,428 triangles

Space ground stage - 3,814 triangles

Canyon stage - 3,167 triangles

 

[Cloofoofoo]

World Series Baseball Naomi / Super Major League - Naomi
Its based on Sega Wow entertainments World Series Baseball 2k1 on dreamcast, uses same models but slight differences. That game is then based off wows dynamite baseball. Pretty game but very annoying to get the models, Extreme amount of Lods for every body segment then morphing for hands + lod for it.

Baseball player ( highest lod) : 2,570 triangles

Stadium : 14,519 triangles