"Yes, but how many polygons?" An artist blog entry with interesting numbers

[Cloofoofoo]

Wow huge difference between GC and PC.

And I guess by extension ps2 since this version is based off that. I think its interesting on pc it goes even lower than ps2. They completely removed post processing effects and lighting is further simplified ( i wouldnt be surprised if its just directional light source with some ambient) to the point it looks almost absent. Ill post a shot.

This is what I was saying before , if there money to be made they would downgrade it happily, the original be damned as long is it looks passable. As long as they gameplay is intact i guess thats all that matters.

 

[Nesh]

And I guess by extension ps2 since this version is based off that. I think its interesting on pc it goes even lower than ps2. They completely removed post processing effects and lighting is further simplified ( i wouldnt be surprised if its just directional light source with some ambient) to the point it looks almost absent. Ill post a shot.

This is what I was saying before , if there money to be made they would downgrade it happily, the original be damned as long is it looks passable. As long as they gameplay is intact i guess thats all that matters.

But it doesnt make much sense considering that the PCs were significantly more powerful. These downgrades appear very unnecessary

 

[Cloofoofoo]

But it doesnt make much sense considering that the PCs were significantly more powerful. These downgrades appear very unnecessary

Yeah that doesnt make sense other than maybe they wanted it work with everything under the sun or it was a quick port using the ps2 version who had the extras available.

I was just pointing companies could go lower if they really wanted to no problems/ questions asked =)

 

[xaeroxcore]

And I guess by extension ps2 since this version is based off that. I think its interesting on pc it goes even lower than ps2. They completely removed post processing effects and lighting is further simplified ( i wouldnt be surprised if its just directional light source with some ambient) to the point it looks almost absent. Ill post a shot.

This is what I was saying before , if there money to be made they would downgrade it happily, the original be damned as long is it looks passable. As long as they gameplay is intact i guess thats all that matters.

They actually downgraded it more:

 

[Cloofoofoo]

They actually downgraded it more:

View attachment 6737

I dont count the android version because its not even the same game. I was already aware of it. At least the pc , gamecube and ps2 obviously share similar codebases.

But yeah its even worse.

 

[xaeroxcore]

I dont count the android version because its not even the same game. I was already aware of it. At least the pc , gamecube and ps2 obviously share similar codebases.

But yeah its even worse.

Iphone -Android version looks like a PC AA game for late 90s/very early 2000 or the mandatory DC quickport of it from that era (like Slave Zero, Soldier of Fortune, Hidden and Dangerous, Kiss Psycho Circus, etc)....Not bad for a mobile device in the beginings of the smartphone era...There is an even worse version of RE 4 for the console Zeebo.

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Iphone -Android version looks like a PC AA game for late 90s/very early 2000 or the mandatory DC quickport of it from that era (like Slave Zero, Soldier of Fortune, Hidden and Dangerous, Kiss Psycho Circus, etc)....Not bad for a mobile device in the beginings of the smartphone era...There is an even worse version of RE 4 for the console Zeebo.
View attachment 6739

The zeebo version is the android version Ported to brew.

Why would you even want that on dc when the ps2/pc version are actually low enough to run on dreamcast? Heck you could even use the low 700 triangles lod zombies for dc. Especially like the pc with no post process effects

In anycase i was just doing a comparison gc and ps2. Nothing really do with dreamcast.

 

[xaeroxcore]

The zeebo version is the android version Ported to brew.

Why would you even want that on dc when the ps2/pc version are actually low enough to run on dreamcast? Heck you could even use the low 700 triangles lod zombies for dc. Especially like the pc with no post process effects

In anycase i was just doing a comparison gc and ps2. Nothing really do with dreamcast.

My bad, i was just trying to point that the low poly mobile version was very look a like to the average PC games and their ports (even early PS2) from that era. And about GCN and PS2/PC the difference is huge in polycounts, but does not seem that big for the regular non enthusiast gamer when game is in action, so it was a triumph for Capcom and Sony, and really a miracle PS2 being able to run RE 4 with the same GCN engine, also hiding lotta of the drawbacks under the hood, for the non trained eye, which is most part of the userbase.

Also dunno why they took PS2 as base for windows port, wasnt easier to take GCN, which looks better and has a more friendly architecture?

 

[milk]

My bad, i was just trying to point that the low poly mobile version was very look a like to the average PC games and their ports (even early PS2) from that era. And about GCN and PS2/PC the difference is huge in polycounts, but does not seem that big for the regular non enthusiast gamer when game is in action, so it was a triumph for Capcom and Sony, and really a miracle PS2 being able to run RE 4 with the same GCN engine, also hiding lotta of the drawbacks under the hood, for the non trained eye, which is most part of the userbase.

Also dunno why they took PS2 as base for windows port, wasnt easier to take GCN, which looks better and has a more friendly architecture?

They probably saw the PS2 as a better basis for being more recent: more bug fixes, features, etc.

 

[Viperzerofsx]

Metal Gear solid Snake eater - ps2
Characters missing a little bit of hair, doesnt change poly much, only increases by around 200 triangles than shown. The land is bare, in game it would be populated by trees. Probably much higher than displayed here since i found layer of tree tops that alone were like 10k to 18k triangles(though that could be for the mid air scene).

Snake paratrooper - 6,263 triangles

The boss - 4,219 triangles

Snake - 4,637 triangles

soldier - 2,452 triangles

Chasm leading to bridge - 15, 468 triangles

Forest / mountain - 17,577 triangles

If by any chance you have easy access to some of the aircraft models in mgs 2 and 3 I would love to know what they are. The harrier in 2 the Mig-21 YF-12 and C-130 in 3.

 

[Cloofoofoo]

If by any chance you have easy access to some of the aircraft models in mgs 2 and 3 I would love to know what they are. The harrier in 2 the Mig-21 YF-12 and C-130 in 3.

Sorry i dont anymore. I got rid of the models once i was done for space reasons

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Soul Reaver 2 - PC/windows - Revisited.
Decided to revisit soul reaver 2 pc to compare if the earlier development shots that were from the dreamcast version show difference in the models of the level. To my surprise it seems mostly unchanged if not completely unchanged geometry wise. While the baked in vertex colors are darker in the finished game than the screenshots they still match where the fake lighting is. I guess dark and air forge were complete at time of cancellation.

air forge lion snake room- 67,429 triangles

air forge stone gap - 31,345 triangles

air forge head room - 11,250 triangles

spectral realm airforge - 38,563 triangles

Final Dreamcast shot with update player model in dark forge - 38,660 triangles

 

[xaeroxcore]

Soul Reaver 2 - PC/windows - Revisited.
Decided to revisit soul reaver 2 pc to compare if the earlier development shots that were from the dreamcast version show difference in the models of the level. To my surprise it seems mostly unchanged if not completely unchanged geometry wise. While the baked in vertex colors are darker in the finished game than the screenshots they still match where the fake lighting is. I guess dark and air forge were complete at time of cancellation.

air forge lion snake room- 67,429 triangles

air forge stone gap - 31,345 triangles

air forge head room - 11,250 triangles

spectral realm airforge - 38,563 triangles

Final Dreamcast shot with update player model in dark forge - 38,660 triangles

Man, thanks 4 this amazing data....So it means, DC is capable to run the high poly stage assets from final SR2. The Raziel model from the beta looks higher poly than the 1K DC SR, but is less than the 3K final model ...It would be amazing to play someday with both...Darn, is there no one from the industry on this thread! Hahaha We in DC really deserve to play this in our actual machines. If Castlevania could made it, i dont´see why SR2 cant finally leak and reach our DCs!

 

[xaeroxcore]

Also i have another question, apart from Shenmue, is there more DC games with +20k polys for stages? I'd bet on Headhunter, Crazy Taxy, Super Runabout and, i dont´know, RE Code Veronica or 18 Wheeler?

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Man, thanks 4 this amazing data....So it means, DC is capable to run the high poly stage assets from final SR2. The Raziel model from the beta looks higher poly than the 1K DC SR, but is less than the 3K final model ...It would be amazing to play someday with both...Darn, is there no one from the industry on this thread! Hahaha We in DC really deserve to play this in our actual machines. If Castlevania could made it, i dont´see why SR2 cant finally leak and reach our DCs!

Did you ignore the final screenshot? Its exactly the same model as the final version. Its also dc shot from nixxes directly as i told you mulitple pages back.

 

[TapamN]

Also i have another question, apart from Shenmue, is there more DC games with +20k polys for stages? I'd bet on Headhunter, Crazy Taxy, Super Runabout and, i dont´know, RE Code Veronica or 18 Wheeler?

The first section of Emerald Coast is 27K tris, the static map data in City Escape is around 120K polygons (doesn't include props like plants), and the Crazy Taxi maps are around 200k polygons.

 

[Cloofoofoo]

The first section of Emerald Coast is 27K tris, the static map data in City Escape is around 120K polygons (doesn't include props like plants), and the Crazy Taxi maps are around 200k polygons.

What makes this more impressive imo is that these are segments you can usually see from end to end as its mostly rooms( if you played the game you will see what i mean). So if the assets are truely as dense as they appear to be as the pc version they are pushing alot before you even factor enemies.

You think baking in the lighting as vertex colors helped cope ans allowed them push more polygons on screen? Though i still see dynamic lighting used for the reaver in the first shot.

 

[xaeroxcore]

Did you ignore the final screenshot? Its exactly the same model as the final version. Its also dc shot from nixxes directly as i told you mulitple pages back.

Of course i saw it, remain calm hehehe. I´m just saying the model of the rest of the screenshots from IGN seems to be more complex than the DC SR1 Raziel but lesser than the 3K for the final screenshot from Nixxes . Looks like it stands somewhere in between...So it would be interesting to test that one someday. But of course it would be a dream came true to test the final 3K raziel model on DC.

 

[xaeroxcore]

What makes this more impressive imo is that these are segments you can usually see from end to end as its mostly rooms( if you played the game you will see what i mean). So if the assets are truely as dense as they appear to be as the pc version they are pushing alot before you even factor enemies.

You think baking in the lighting as vertex colors helped cope ans allowed them push more polygons on screen? Though i still see dynamic lighting used for the reaver in the first shot.

First shot seems to be a cutscene, cuz it has black bars. So, proabably they could use dynamic lighting for some cutscenes and vertex color in game, to save resources

 

[TapamN]

What makes this more impressive imo is that these are segments you can usually see from end to end as its mostly rooms( if you played the game you will see what i mean). So if the assets are truely as dense as they appear to be as the pc version they are pushing alot before you even factor enemies.

You think baking in the lighting as vertex colors helped cope ans allowed them push more polygons on screen? Though i still see dynamic lighting used for the reaver in the first shot.

Baking lighting allows for higher quality lighting. Depending on how the T&L code is written, there's not much difference between a single parallel light and baked in terms of speed, but the baked could look a lot better.

The raw polygon counts for some rooms seem like they might be hard to pull off. The 67k polygon room (it doesn't actually look like that much in that screenshot, but whatever) would have trouble running on the Dreamcast. The CPU load wouldn't be a problem if you settle for 30 FPS, but the amount of video memory needed to store the scene buffer would be difficult to work around. I would estimate it could use up to something like 2400 KB to 2700 KB of video RAM. Since you also need space for any character models, and the scene buffer is double buffered, you'd actually need over double that space, and there'd be no room left for textures left after the frame buffer gets factored in.

The estimate is worst case, though, when the entire map is visible. Only on screen polygons are stored by the hardware. If you're in the middle of the room, and you can't see the entire room at once, you wouldn't need nearly as much space. The problem would be when you begin to enter the room or stand in a corner, and pretty much the entire room model is in the screen boundaries at the same time.

If the engine had a good culling system to avoid submitting and storing geometry that can't be seen, it could still be possible. Like portal culling, so if you're entering the room, and parts of the map that are in the view frustum but can't be seen through the door, the parts you can't see are discarded. Another thing that would help would be manual backface culling on chunks of geometry, like if the map has a balcony, and the camera is looking towards it, but is below it, you can skip rendering the floor polygons of the balcony, even though it's in the frustum, since it would be facing away from the camera.

I doubt Sega's PVR driver supported this, but another way to get high per-frame polygons counts without giant scene buffers would be to run would be to macrotile the frame. Instead of storing the entire frame's polygons double buffered, you render part of the screen at a time (like half or a quarter), so you don't need room for the entire thing at once. You'd lose some performance, but save a lot of RAM.