Of course, there are, nobody claims otherwise. And yes, memory was an issue, but again the "polygon counts" of which this thread is titled, was the biggest issue with games of that era, for the Dreamcast. It is believed that the system had enough memory for 3milllion per second in game, but not sure we ever say that, for whatever reason. It is somewhat common knowledge that the Dreamcast would run out of memory before it would max out on polygons, at least that is what I have read.
"Yes, but how many polygons?" An artist blog entry with interesting numbers
- Thread starter Farid
- Start date
Excellent information on polygon counts, Cloofoofoo. It is interesting to me, that I find myself so fascinated by what games/hardware were producing years ago, in some instances more than 20 years ago! I think what some of these numbers show is that the trend to create better models with roughly the same number of polygons varied in quality by developer and certainly shows how much "better" the practice had become within a few short years.
I don't think anyone sensible here will debate the pecking order of the 6th generation consoles. However, your work and the numbers presented here show that, IMO, the Dreamcast was kind of limited by knowledge and expertise of the era. Straddling that timeframe between Saturn/PS1 and the rest of the 6th generation console arrivals. A few games on DC, debunk my opinion, but I think we can't dismiss this as a real consideration. For every DOA2 we had probably 2 dozen games that didn't push the system in any meaningful way, as far as optimizations or polygon counts are concerned.
It would be fascinating to know if the DC could have increased the polygon count on most games, AND also implemented better lighting had it been afforded a normal retail life cycle. What type of tool revisions came out for the hardware; you know stuff like that, but I digress.
I know this thread is not DC vs the world, but since it is the only 6th gen system that lived a very short life span, it makes the question of "yes, but how many polygons", even more interesting when posed in relation to the Dreamcast vs other systems, and how the DC might have been viewed in 2004 with its latest and greatest software, that never was. Apologies if I have taken the discussion to left of field from the thread topic.
I don't think anyone sensible here will debate the pecking order of the 6th generation consoles. However, your work and the numbers presented here show that, IMO, the Dreamcast was kind of limited by knowledge and expertise of the era. Straddling that timeframe between Saturn/PS1 and the rest of the 6th generation console arrivals. A few games on DC, debunk my opinion, but I think we can't dismiss this as a real consideration. For every DOA2 we had probably 2 dozen games that didn't push the system in any meaningful way, as far as optimizations or polygon counts are concerned.
It would be fascinating to know if the DC could have increased the polygon count on most games, AND also implemented better lighting had it been afforded a normal retail life cycle. What type of tool revisions came out for the hardware; you know stuff like that, but I digress.
I know this thread is not DC vs the world, but since it is the only 6th gen system that lived a very short life span, it makes the question of "yes, but how many polygons", even more interesting when posed in relation to the Dreamcast vs other systems, and how the DC might have been viewed in 2004 with its latest and greatest software, that never was. Apologies if I have taken the discussion to left of field from the thread topic.
PS2 too, technically?
PS2 wasn't conveniently separated into CPU and GPU - graphics drawing silicon was part of the EE and the GS was a rasteriser, not a complete GPU. Were the 'GPU T&L' units moved the CPU, or was T&L done in software on the CPU without 'T&L hardware'? I don't think it's a distinction worth trying to make. the question is more what Rootax meant by ' T&L done on the GPU' - dedicated, high-performance silicon?
Sega's arcade machines could afford to bolt bits on to Naomi, or double up entire systems, because volume was low and profits were high.
Elan was very fast for the year it was ready for use - many months before VF4 launched in the arcades - but for cost effective integration into a console it would have needed all the glue re-engineering. Stuff like putting it on the same chip as the GPU, and having a bus to vram that they could both share efficiently (in Naomi 2 they dedicated memory: Elan 1x 16 MB, 2 x CLX with 16 MB each). Stuff that PVR were very capable of doing, but that it wasn't worth Sega paying for.
PS2 and Dreamcast both, in differing degree, took their last gen model and integrated more vector processing onto the CPU. PS2 had vector units, Sega worked with Hitachi to make the main core better at vector processing.
GPU manufacturers, otoh, saw their GPUs being starved for geometry on the PC and attacked the problem head on with their products.
IMO, anyway (a bit simplified but there you go!)
Elan was very fast for the year it was ready for use - many months before VF4 launched in the arcades - but for cost effective integration into a console it would have needed all the glue re-engineering. Stuff like putting it on the same chip as the GPU, and having a bus to vram that they could both share efficiently (in Naomi 2 they dedicated memory: Elan 1x 16 MB, 2 x CLX with 16 MB each). Stuff that PVR were very capable of doing, but that it wasn't worth Sega paying for.
PS2 and Dreamcast both, in differing degree, took their last gen model and integrated more vector processing onto the CPU. PS2 had vector units, Sega worked with Hitachi to make the main core better at vector processing.
GPU manufacturers, otoh, saw their GPUs being starved for geometry on the PC and attacked the problem head on with their products.
IMO, anyway (a bit simplified but there you go!)
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Cloofoofoo
Regular
Illbleed - Dreamcast
Made by the same team that made blue stinger. Seems their got better despite less character complexity. The stages are dense but in pieces , only assembled 2. Was curious of this game since it most reminded me of how psp games tend to look, nice lighting even dynamic runs 60 fps (with dips ).
World hub - 11,269 triangles
Forest stage(where the worms attack) - 55,308 triangles
Toy Hunter Cork ( costume player wears for Cork goes to Hell) - 1,570 triangles
Eriko - 1,653 triangles
Bull stinger boss?( cameo from blue stinger) - 3,650 triangles
killerman(boss) - 1,051 triangles
Zodik the hellhog(bossfrom toy hunter) - 2,316 triangles
Meat guy ( regular enemy ) - 620 triangles
Gun Girl ( regular enemy) - 878 triangles
Made by the same team that made blue stinger. Seems their got better despite less character complexity. The stages are dense but in pieces , only assembled 2. Was curious of this game since it most reminded me of how psp games tend to look, nice lighting even dynamic runs 60 fps (with dips ).
World hub - 11,269 triangles
Forest stage(where the worms attack) - 55,308 triangles
Toy Hunter Cork ( costume player wears for Cork goes to Hell) - 1,570 triangles
Eriko - 1,653 triangles
Bull stinger boss?( cameo from blue stinger) - 3,650 triangles
killerman(boss) - 1,051 triangles
Zodik the hellhog(bossfrom toy hunter) - 2,316 triangles
Meat guy ( regular enemy ) - 620 triangles
Gun Girl ( regular enemy) - 878 triangles
xaeroxcore
Newcomer
Models are well done, but they coul add some geometry for the hands....main characters with no modeled fingers were embarrasing for a Dreamcast game...also with no facial animations. Ill Bleed is fun, but they could had put extra work in it.Illbleed - Dreamcast
Made by the same team that made blue stinger. Seems their got better despite less character complexity. The stages are dense but in pieces , only assembled 2. Was curious of this game since it most reminded me of how psp games tend to look, nice lighting even dynamic runs 60 fps (with dips ).
World hub - 11,269 triangles
Forest stage(where the worms attack) - 55,308 triangles
Toy Hunter Cork ( costume player wears for Cork goes to Hell) - 1,570 triangles
Eriko - 1,653 triangles
Bull stinger boss?( cameo from blue stinger) - 3,650 triangles
killerman(boss) - 1,051 triangles
Zodik the hellhog(bossfrom toy hunter) - 2,316 triangles
Meat guy ( regular enemy ) - 620 triangles
Gun Girl ( regular enemy) - 878 triangles
Cloofoofoo
Regular
I disagree with you, tons of psp or ps2 games were like this. Its probably less about polygon count and maybe it just was just what was their needs. Or even save processing power since something like hands can be like 20 or more bones. Blue stinger had facial animTion and full detailed hands but didnt really work out for it. They probably shifted focus to bigger stages and 60 fps with better art.
Cloofoofoo
Regular
Soul Reaver 1 - Dreamcast
Upgraded over the ps1 version. Makes nice use of vertex colors to bake in lighting. Stages denser than I thought.
Raziel - 1,222 triangles
Kain(boss ) - 1,080 triangles
Melchaiah(boss) - 666 triangles
Vortex abyss - 7,578 triangles
Cathedral? - 6,826 triangles
pillars ( spectral realm ) - 6,126 triangles
Wraith(regular enemy) - 290 triangles
Melchaiah offspring - 269 triangles
Upgraded over the ps1 version. Makes nice use of vertex colors to bake in lighting. Stages denser than I thought.
Raziel - 1,222 triangles
Kain(boss ) - 1,080 triangles
Melchaiah(boss) - 666 triangles
Vortex abyss - 7,578 triangles
Cathedral? - 6,826 triangles
pillars ( spectral realm ) - 6,126 triangles
Wraith(regular enemy) - 290 triangles
Melchaiah offspring - 269 triangles
Cloofoofoo
Regular
Soul Reaver 2 - PC
Much bigger upgrade Than I thought. Also uses vertex color for lighting like sr1. I think the pc port was done by nixxes( which also had the task of doing the doomed dc port. )
Lake - 86,140 triangles
Stronghold (bigger room) - 76,998 triangles
Stronghold (smaller room. spectral realm)- 33,718 triangles
Raziel - 3,185 triangles
Mobeous - 2,020 triangles
Sluaguh - 706 triangles
slauagh greater - 1,270 triangles
Much bigger upgrade Than I thought. Also uses vertex color for lighting like sr1. I think the pc port was done by nixxes( which also had the task of doing the doomed dc port. )
Lake - 86,140 triangles
Stronghold (bigger room) - 76,998 triangles
Stronghold (smaller room. spectral realm)- 33,718 triangles
Raziel - 3,185 triangles
Mobeous - 2,020 triangles
Sluaguh - 706 triangles
slauagh greater - 1,270 triangles
Cloofoofoo
Regular
Blue Submarine No.6 - Tide and Time - Dreamcast
Submarine sim with a visual novel interface with 3d models to move the plot along. Cutscenes the only time you see your sub since its first person. The stage files are pieces at origin point. ( i guess the coordinates arent built in like illbleed).
Mission map - 5,353 triangles
Adventure map - 8,751 triangles
Underwater skyscraper city - 27,711 triangles
Necklace see in credits - 19,346 triangles
Partners boat rig - 3,747 triangles
Players Sub (cutscene) - 2,952 triangles
Final enemy sub (cut Scene) - 8,266 triangles
Final enemy sub ( up close cutscene ) - 19,190 triangles
Hayami( main character, adventure mode model) - 6,072 triangles
Final cutscene as RanFang says goodbye to hayami - 7,879 triangles
Squid( regular enemy) - 1,950 triangles
Crab( regular enemy) - 1,580 triangles
Submarine sim with a visual novel interface with 3d models to move the plot along. Cutscenes the only time you see your sub since its first person. The stage files are pieces at origin point. ( i guess the coordinates arent built in like illbleed).
Mission map - 5,353 triangles
Adventure map - 8,751 triangles
Underwater skyscraper city - 27,711 triangles
Necklace see in credits - 19,346 triangles
Partners boat rig - 3,747 triangles
Players Sub (cutscene) - 2,952 triangles
Final enemy sub (cut Scene) - 8,266 triangles
Final enemy sub ( up close cutscene ) - 19,190 triangles
Hayami( main character, adventure mode model) - 6,072 triangles
Final cutscene as RanFang says goodbye to hayami - 7,879 triangles
Squid( regular enemy) - 1,950 triangles
Crab( regular enemy) - 1,580 triangles
xaeroxcore
Newcomer
THANK YOUUUU FOR THOSE AMAZING NUMBERS! As i suspected, raziel and kain models are on 1k polys league on DC, according from magazines back in the day, on PS1 those models were around 500 polys....So it looks like they improved polycounts for stages on DC too?Soul Reaver 1 - Dreamcast
Upgraded over the ps1 version. Makes nice use of vertex colors to bake in lighting. Stages denser than I thought.
Raziel - 1,222 triangles
Kain(boss ) - 1,080 triangles
Melchaiah(boss) - 666 triangles
Vortex abyss - 7,578 triangles
Cathedral? - 6,826 triangles
pillars ( spectral realm ) - 6,126 triangles
Wraith(regular enemy) - 290 triangles
Melchaiah offspring - 269 triangles
Daaammmn +70k and 80k polys for stages? they are way dense! i dont think DC can handle that amount of polys, so in the canceled port probaly those would have some cuts, i think. In this site https://www.thelostworlds.net/SR2/Soul_Reaver_2_for_the_Sega_Dreamcast.html they uploaded some of SR2 DC´s work, before the cancellation....Stages look way detailed (could they be 70k and 80k polys?), but Raziel model looks like the 1k poly model of DC SR 1, not the final 3K polys of SR2. Anyway, Raziel and other characters numbers for the SR2 retail version seems on DCs reach. Hope someday this unreleased beta of DC SR2 gets leaked.Soul Reaver 2 - PC
Much bigger upgrade Than I thought. Also uses vertex color for lighting like sr1. I think the pc port was done by nixxes( which also had the task of doing the doomed dc port. )
Lake - 86,140 triangles
Stronghold (bigger room) - 76,998 triangles
Stronghold (smaller room. spectral realm)- 33,718 triangles
Raziel - 3,185 triangles
Mobeous - 2,020 triangles
Sluaguh - 706 triangles
slauagh greater - 1,270 triangles
Cloofoofoo
Regular
Those screenshots were old they told ign, they also told them they had raziel 3k triangles in the game. Also the developers of the port, nixxes , talks that they pushed the hardware hard and included a screenshot in their article of the dc version( picture on their website called dcshot). As you see it doesnt look like the dark lighting of the ps2 version. They got pretty far along in the development. Iam pretty sure you would trust what the devs says when they have nothing to lose.
They said
xaeroxcore
Newcomer
Those screenshots were old they told ign, they also told them they had raziel 3k triangles in the game. Also the developers of the port, nixxes , talks that they pushed the hardware hard and included a screenshot in their article of the dc version( picture on their website called dcshot). As you see it doesnt look like the dark lighting of the ps2 version. They got pretty far along in the development. Iam pretty sure you would trust what the devs says when they have nothing to lose.
They said
So, is confirmed 3K polys Raziel was possible on DC....Damn... we really need that beta! If Castlevania got leaked i don´t see why SR 2 is that hard....
Cloofoofoo
Regular
P.N. 03 - Gamecube
similar model format to Resident evil 4 gamecube so i used those tools for extraction. Wasnt able to get the stages. Am not too familiar with the game. I can only imagine how dense the stages are if character models are anything to go by.
Vanessa(high poly/cutscene model) - 14, 343 triangles
Vanessa ( Gameplay model) - 9,865 triangles
Regular walker enemy - 2,186 triangles
Regular turret enemy - 1,766 triangles
Boss Maybe?? - 3,566 triangles
Another boss maybe?? -
similar model format to Resident evil 4 gamecube so i used those tools for extraction. Wasnt able to get the stages. Am not too familiar with the game. I can only imagine how dense the stages are if character models are anything to go by.
Vanessa(high poly/cutscene model) - 14, 343 triangles
Vanessa ( Gameplay model) - 9,865 triangles
Regular walker enemy - 2,186 triangles
Regular turret enemy - 1,766 triangles
Boss Maybe?? - 3,566 triangles
Another boss maybe?? -
Cloofoofoo
Regular
Resident Evil 4 - GameCube Version
This one was rather annoying considering the tools extract the assets are scattered everywhere. Was able to extract characters and stages but stages look jumbled because all their pieces are at origin. Game is very high poly. Seems to rely alot on morph target for faces(cutscene) and hand/finger) movement. Gameplay model for leon is very detailed and so are the mob characters.
r100 ( starting point of the game) - 46, 980 triangles
r11 (swamp?) - 67,601 triangles
r400 - 62,695 triangles
Leon (gameplay) - 9,163 triangles
Ashley Graham pop costume - 12,973 triangles
Ada wong (npc ) - 14,925 triangles
ganado male with weapon - 3,091 triangles
ganado female - 2,915 triangles
This one was rather annoying considering the tools extract the assets are scattered everywhere. Was able to extract characters and stages but stages look jumbled because all their pieces are at origin. Game is very high poly. Seems to rely alot on morph target for faces(cutscene) and hand/finger) movement. Gameplay model for leon is very detailed and so are the mob characters.
r100 ( starting point of the game) - 46, 980 triangles
r11 (swamp?) - 67,601 triangles
r400 - 62,695 triangles
Leon (gameplay) - 9,163 triangles
Ashley Graham pop costume - 12,973 triangles
Ada wong (npc ) - 14,925 triangles
ganado male with weapon - 3,091 triangles
ganado female - 2,915 triangles
Cloofoofoo
Regular
Resident Evil 4 - Pc version 2007
I hear the assets of this version is based off the ps2 and where heavily downgraded. The assets were much easier to extract with available models tools built for modding it than gamecube version. Downgraded is an understatement. Interestingly it even has low lods for mob characters.
r11 (swamp) - 42,019 triangles
r100(starting point of game) - 48,902 triangles
r400( village mercs) - 46,796 triangles
Leon(gameplay) - 5,011 triangles
Luis - 4,197 triangles
Ashley pop star costume - 5,424 triangles
Regular ganado - 1,232 triangles
army ganado - 1,210 triangles
regular ganado(low poly lod ) - 794 triangles
I hear the assets of this version is based off the ps2 and where heavily downgraded. The assets were much easier to extract with available models tools built for modding it than gamecube version. Downgraded is an understatement. Interestingly it even has low lods for mob characters.
r11 (swamp) - 42,019 triangles
r100(starting point of game) - 48,902 triangles
r400( village mercs) - 46,796 triangles
Leon(gameplay) - 5,011 triangles
Luis - 4,197 triangles
Ashley pop star costume - 5,424 triangles
Regular ganado - 1,232 triangles
army ganado - 1,210 triangles
regular ganado(low poly lod ) - 794 triangles