Xbox360, so where the hell is the AA?

Thank you for taking the time to post pics, but any chance you could get some higher resolution ones and/or get closer to the TV? It is pretty hard to make any judgement at all on AA quality with 1014x760 shots of a display showing 1080i. CoD2 would be preferable as well, as it has far more straight edges that would be better suited to ilustrate the level of AA.

Also, Shifty Geezer, I never made any claim of the sort so I have no clue what you are getting at when you say you don't belive me.
 
swanlee said:
Don't actually care if you believe me or not but these are facts I have the 360 at my home with these 3 games displaying in 1080I and aliasing is not an issue. Sorry but your wrong, end of story Aliasing is not a problem even on these launch titles that aren't properly optimized for the hardware.

If you want to go by what you see at walmart on incomplete games go ahead or go by what you heard someone else say or screenshots then go for it, but the reality is different on the actual 360 with the completed retail games.
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I haven't even seen the 360 at Wallmart so you are way off there, and as I said in what you quoted from me; I was commenting on the full releases of the game I have played and not any incomplete demos. I'm not trying to call you out here though so there is no reason to get riled up, I was just hopping you might be so kind as to give us some examples pictures to provide a general idea what the games look like on your TV. If that is too much to ask then could easly have just said so, there is no reason to get up in arms about anything here.
 
swanlee said:
If you want to go by what you see at walmart on incomplete games go ahead or go by what you heard someone else say or screenshots then go for it, but the reality is different on the actual 360 with the completed retail games.
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Hmmm, you're asking me to take your word over screenshots? Even if you can't perceive jaggies on your TV, I'm not going to believe 2xAA gets rid of them until I see it for myself, because 2xAA doesn't provide enough information density to elliminate jaggies. 4xAA doesn't. 16x Supersampling doesn't, though they're getting less noticeable with all the AA you can chuck at them.
 
while I agree with shifty that 2x or 4x AA is not going to eradicate every possible jaggie, the title of this thread is :

Xbox360, so where the hell is the AA?
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I think it is evident now that MS's promise of 2x or 4x AA is being fulfilled and in general, the lion's share of jaggies are now reduced to a fairly smooth level.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
Hmmm, you're asking me to take your word over screenshots? Even if you can't perceive jaggies on your TV, I'm not going to believe 2xAA gets rid of them until I see it for myself, because 2xAA doesn't provide enough information density to elliminate jaggies. 4xAA doesn't. 16x Supersampling doesn't, though they're getting less noticeable with all the AA you can chuck at them.
Click to expand...

Shifty, you need to realize these are TV's not computer monitors.

I can set my sharpness at 50 and voila, no jaggies, I can set it at 90, and there's lots of jaggies that stand out. There's so many variables. What's his edge enhancement set at? What's the sharpness set at? how far away is he playing from the screen?

Currently I have my sharpness around 70, and while there are some jaggies in COD for the most part it's extremely good, things like telephone wires look excellent, there are some jaggies, but it's obviously 2xAA.

NHL2k6 is virtually jaggy free, with some minor ones along the boards, I would say 2xAA for sure since it's very hard to spot the jaggies.

Kameo, without question is 4xAA.
 
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It isn't obvious at all the the games I have seen. x2aa is obvious in some, but others sorely lack any at all. I don't think it is an issue of the 360 having the power to do it either, but rather rushed games and/or dvelopers simply not making the effort to inlcude it. Take for example these 360 vs PC comparison pics and note the obvious alising on the 360 pics of NFS:MW.
 
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scooby_dooby said:
Shifty, you need to realize these are TV's not computer monitors.
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I appreciate that. I'm sure you can set your TV to blurry to elliminate jaggies. Maybe that's what swanlee has going on? I'm just not accepting swanlee's statement that "Aliasing is a thing of the past on home consoles now." Anyone with a reasonable TV, especially a large one, is going to see jaggies. I play CON on a 14" TV with plenty of 'fuzz'. It's got 4x Supersampling, akin to 4xAA (assuming no motion AA is going on) and it still has jaggies. They're not always noticeable because the artwork hides them well, but they are there and visible. In something more contrasty like a racer with dark buildings against a bright sky jaggies will be more noticeable. The bigger screen size counteracts the increase in resolution versus a 14" SD CRT, so pixels per inch is no better than my Trinitron, and AA is no better than CON. I know from my own experience unless there's some amazing magic going on we're not going to be getting jaggy-free games. Especially not on larger TVs. The only way we'll get rid of jaggies this upcoming gen is a different approach to edge drawing, because multisampling isn't technically up to the job. Or motion-blurring or other blurring to death to elliminate all contrast on edges, which'll produce a very muddy image.
 
So your basing this on screenshots instead actually looking at the game in motion on a reasonably calibrated TV in 1080I or 720P? Ok no point in even discussing this, what is shown in screenshots can be very different from what is seen in a game in motion. These Launch games are using at least some AA it is dramtically reducing jaggies, the premis of this thread seems to be based on factors other than actually playing real game in HD like they were designed. The complete absence of all jaggies is more subjective than anything but to say the 360 has AA missing is just plainly false and the AA used is making a dramtic difference even in these launch titles. It will only get better from here.
 
Does'nt look to jaggie to me :

picture1707ur.jpg

picture1771sq.jpg

picture1721tc.jpg
 
!eVo!-X Ant UK said:
Does'nt look to jaggie to me :
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Well of course not! They're scaled down images. To see if there are jaggies you need ideally a direct framebuffer grab, or at least an image approaching the resolution of the source. If you look at this pic as linked to above http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pgr17ty.jpg you can clearly see jaggies on the signpost and buildings in the top left. These sorts of jaggies won't be going away because of 2xAA or 4xAA. Though like I say, a good bit of blurring on a slowish LCD can elliminate a lot of these jaggies in motion!
 
Shifty Geezer said:
I appreciate that. I'm sure you can set your TV to blurry to elliminate jaggies. Maybe that's what swanlee has going on? I'm just not accepting swanlee's statement that "Aliasing is a thing of the past on home consoles now." Anyone with a reasonable TV, especially a large one, is going to see jaggies.
Click to expand...

Well I have a very good TV, it's 46" inches and I can tell you right now that with sharpness around 50 there are extremely few jaggies in COD2. It's not that;s it "blurry" everything still looks sharp, it just takes the edge off and the jaggies don't stand out. If I crank the sharpness, then all of a sudden, there are alot of jaggies to be found.

My point was these are TV monitors, not PC monitors, and they will still hide many of the jaggies, even if they are HD, simply because they have settings like sharpness, and edge enhancement which affects the appearence of jaggies, these options are not available on a PC monitor.

IMO, ms has basically lived up to their promise of eliminating jaggies. I know what it was like to play XBOX games in HD, and I know what it's like to play X360 games in HD and it's night and day. Even if there are the odd jaggy here and there, it's an entirely better picture than the jagged crap I was putting up with before, and it's now at the level where it doesn't bother me at all. And this is coming from a guy who's #1 pet peeve is jaggies.
 
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I haven't seen PDZ in person so I'm in no position to judge, I just picked those as they are the newest PDZ shots I could find on that site on the day the game was released. Why do you say they are not from a final build? Being sraight from Rare and having been released on launch day I just figured they were, but if those shots are not accurate repersentations of the final game could you please link to some that are?
 
kyleb said:
I haven't seen PDZ in person so I'm in no position to judge, I just picked those as they are the newest PDZ shots I could find on that site on the day the game was released. Why do you say they are not from a final build? Being sraight from Rare and having been released on launch day I just figured they were, but if those shots are not accurate repersentations of the final game could you please link to some that are?
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edit correction: I was thinking of other shots Blim Blim posted....sorry

not sure why those look so bad but they certainly do not represent the final output on the HDTV.

When I get some time, I wonder if some digital shots from my HDTV would give any reasonable representation of final output?
 
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scooby_dooby said:
Heres some real screens:
http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1170/full-res/1132768468.jpg
http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1170/full-res/1132768363.jpg

Looks like 2xAA in effect to me
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Looks like something smoothing out the jaggies pretty wel in that first shot, but there is obviously no AA in the second. Do you honestly not see how harsh the alaising is all over that shot?

And yeah Tap In, any shots you can provide would be great. High resolution and close in shots of scenes with lots of sraight edges at various angles would be best.
 
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