Xbox360, so where the hell is the AA?

[Dave Baumann]

Ahhh, yes, I forgot about DXT5 - but thats generally a lossier format though; are you going to be using it?

 

[nAo]

Ahhh, yes, I forgot about DXT5 - but thats generally a lossier format though;

lossier than what? It should give you the same quality as 3Dc.

 

[AlphaWolf]

lossier than what? It should give you the same quality as 3Dc.

I was always under the impression that 3dc had a quality advantage over dxt5.

 

[nAo]

I was always under the impression that 3dc had a quality advantage over dxt5.

what I described is different than just use a DXT5 texture, in fact using 2 DXT5 textures you have the same quality as 3Dc and the same time you can use the extra 6 color channels to store correlated data as diffuse, glossy maps, etc.

 

[ERP]

what I described is different than just use a DXT5 texture, in fact using 2 DXT5 textures you have the same quality as 3Dc and the same time you can use the extra 6 color channels to store correlated data as diffuse, glossy maps, etc.

Assuming that your diffuse texture uses the same texture coordinates.
I know we commonly reflect diffuse textures, bit I'd have thought you'd want to make a normal map pretty much unique. I guess you could just make 2 lookups out of the same texture though at some cost.

 

[nAo]

I guess you could just make 2 lookups out of the same texture though at some cost.

Yep

 

[Belmontvedere]

what about 3d textures, doesn't Nvidia have some kind of proprietary compression method for them?

 

[Simon F]

what about 3d textures, doesn't Nvidia have some kind of proprietary compression method for them?

The last I heard it was just DXTC.

 

[tahrikmili]

Also take Doom3 and HL2.Both superb looking but HL2 has a more realistic feel unlike DOOM3 which has the plastic look and overdoits with bumped textures

I thought pretty much the opposite, too many flat surfaces in Half Life 2 made it look like everything was built out of cardboard.. A good balance of polygons and mapping needs to be achieved, this, I agree with, but quality textures and mapping simply makes it look more photoreal than higher polygons. Someone mentioned the FFVII demo and how it wowed them with all the cloth and hair animations. To that I say, nothing in the FFVII demo looked photoreal to me either. What I want to see achieved in the end is something more like Episode III's Yoda than Toy Story's Buzz..

 

[Dr. Meaty]

Can I ask you guys a question? Am I the only one seeing some really noticeable LOD popup kinda stuff going on in COD2 with character models and other objects changing several times as you get closer? I'm starting to think there may be a problem with my console. I've also had the odd texture pop up a little late in PGR3. Anyone else? I'm not bitching about it, I really want to know.

 

[Hardknock]

Can I ask you guys a question? Am I the only one seeing some really noticeable LOD popup kinda stuff going on in COD2 with character models and other objects changing several times as you get closer? I'm starting to think there may be a problem with my console. I've also had the odd texture pop up a little late in PGR3. Anyone else? I'm not bitching about it, I really want to know.

COD2 has the same problems on a high-end PC. The engine is the problem not your console, no need to worry.

 

[Dr. Meaty]

Thanks. I feel better now. It's understandable considering the sheer amount of stuff happening on the screen.

 

[pakotlar]

Upsampling would be a lot more apparent than what we see in Powderkeg's 720p screenshot. Going from 579 to 720 is a big difference. I don't think they're doing this. Robofunk's link from the bizzare forums is further evidence.

Regarding screenshots, why wouldn't Bizzare do 4xAA in them if they're switching resolution and doing a "photo mode"?


For 2xAA, I don't think predicated tiling is necessary. You only need to send the geometry twice and use clip planes or a scissor test each time. I doubt that doubling the geometry will slow down the game that much.

Well, whether or not you "think" tiling would be necessary doesn't change the fact that it is necessary. Read Beyond3d's article on the Xenos for a quick refresh. I'm sure there are some whitepapers floating around to prove this to you as well. AFAIK, 2xAA @ 1280*720P takes about 10.3MB.

edit: Did you read what you just said? How would sending the geometry through twice alleviate the fact that the memory address size exceeds the EDRAM framebuffer? Are you sure you aren't talking about predicated tiling?

 

[LunchBox]

i see all this technical jargon being thrown all over the place...

did you guys even checked to see if the dashboard is in the correct resolution???

that was my problem with CoD2...

it was set at 480p...

so i switched it to 720p on the dashboard and it looks heaps better now...

 

[Nesh]

I thought pretty much the opposite, too many flat surfaces in Half Life 2 made it look like everything was built out of cardboard.. A good balance of polygons and mapping needs to be achieved, this, I agree with, but quality textures and mapping simply makes it look more photoreal than higher polygons. Someone mentioned the FFVII demo and how it wowed them with all the cloth and hair animations. To that I say, nothing in the FFVII demo looked photoreal to me either. What I want to see achieved in the end is something more like Episode III's Yoda than Toy Story's Buzz..

I agree but if cracks, depth, etc is replaced by polygons the result will be more realistic or atleast the same as good usage of normal mapped textures.Take the example of the Kameo pics posted in this site.

The surfaces dont look like textures despite that they are.The models look like they have depth, complex surfaces etc.They give the impression that they are represented by polygons.These could have looked just as good if they were actual polygons representing these, something I havent seen yet in any game.

But if you give a look to the edges of the surfaces they give away that the models are lower polygon.They are flatter than what's shown "inside" the surfaces

I would prefer Episode III's Yoda anytime as well.But his wrinkles, skin cracks, bumps etc arent necessarilly consisted of textures.Neither are my skin's pores, scars, cracks represented by flat (but) normal mapped textures that give the impression of a complex surface.My skin has real complex surfaces that could have been represented by complex polygon surfaces.

Ok I ve given an extreme example there.I am not saying that everything should be made out of polygons only-like Toy Story's Buzz Lightyear and pretty much everything in that movie(But then again the models didnt have complex skin like pores, cracks wrinkles to be represented with polygons).I wouldnt like that looks.But just as you said there should be a balance.

Lair's models was a pretty good example I believe of that balance.Muscles looked like real muscles than normal mapped surfaces that were supposed to represent muscles.

 

[swanlee]

I have the 360 I have Madden, COD2, and PGR3, there is at least 2XAA on them all if not higher, Aliasing is not an issue, I see it with my own eyes on my own TV in 1080I these games have enough AA on them to smooth out all edges and give a very clean appearance.

Again this is not a 2nd hand account of someone playing the game on a kiosk. I have the 360 and these games at home and trust me even in these launch titles Aliasing is a thing of the past on home consoles now.

 

[kyleb]

Any chance you would post some pictures to show what you are seeing? I don't have a 360 yet but I played some PGR3 on a fairly nice 50" rear projection LCD and and the full version of CoD2 on a decent 19" LCD and both showed quite a bit of alising. Close up shots of straight lines at sharp angles in CoD2 would be best as I didn't see any AA at all in that, so I am really interested in getting a better idea of what it looks like on your TV.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Again this is not a 2nd hand account of someone playing the game on a kiosk. I have the 360 and these games at home and trust me even in these launch titles Aliasing is a thing of the past on home consoles now.

I don't believe you, simply because 2xAA can't provide enough antialiasing to elliminate jaggies! Even 4xAA isn't enough for high-contrast situations. The best AA I've ever seen is on my LCD monitor with enough after-image delay that in motion, jaggies are mo-blurred into nonexistence. Jaggie-free console games aren't happening any time soon.

 

[Hardknock]

Any chance you would post some pictures to show what you are seeing? I don't have a 360 yet but I played some PGR3 on a fairly nice 50" rear projection LCD and and the full version of CoD2 on a decent 19" LCD and both showed quite a bit of alising. Close up shots of straight lines at sharp angles in CoD2 would be best as I didn't see any AA at all in that, so I am really interested in getting a better idea of what it looks like on your TV.

Here's a few pictures of what we're seeing:

http://ded.zenblue.net/FW900/Xbox360/Kameo_Enchanted_Kingdom.jpg

http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/8932/picture1345a9vf.jpg

http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/8100/picture1338a7rq.jpg

http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/9649/picture1327a3jk.jpg

http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/7512/picture1323a6pq.jpg

 

[swanlee]

Don't actually care if you believe me or not but these are facts I have the 360 at my home with these 3 games displaying in 1080I and aliasing is not an issue. Sorry but your wrong, end of story Aliasing is not a problem even on these launch titles that aren't properly optimized for the hardware.

If you want to go by what you see at walmart on incomplete games go ahead or go by what you heard someone else say or screenshots then go for it, but the reality is different on the actual 360 with the completed retail games.