XBox One, PS4, DRM, and You

[function]

And let's not forget the Power of The Cloud and it's effect on bandwidth caps.

Interesting isn't it? On the one hand Xbone apologists (and execs) were saying all the Xbone needed was a few KB of data from your tethered 3G phone's mobile hotspot once every 24 hours, but on the other hand, Xbone was going to revolutionise games by guaranteeing that every Bone had a fast connection to the cloud (for infinite graphics).

MS's message seemed confused not because the message was too difficult to understand; it was confused because they were trying desperately not to give the message because they knew people wouldn't like it.

 

[brasnial]

So you can accept that there is a problem with DD because of bandwidth caps but the 24 hour check/always on "Feature" is just as big a problem for those with limited access.
If Microsoft wants they can sell DD discs that work as a DLC for a small download from their Live store. There is plenty of alternative solutions, Microsoft just decided to kill all the positives when they reintroduced the tradeable disc.

Yes I agree that data caps are wrong and I genuinely think its money grabbing business policy .
We had such caps in England at one time them one company decided to grow its market share by offering unlimited broadband access and before you new it more and more were offering the same as they lost market share .

As for the 24 hour thing well I agree it would be a problem for people with unstable internet connections .
But again that's a internet supplies problem ......in rural parts of England broadband is hard to get so much so rural community's have started to put there own lines into the ground paid for by doing fund raising events the physical work being done by the community .

Why are they having to do this because from a business point of view its not worth the investment against return .

There's a lot wrong with the internet I personally believe governments should be more proactive in pushing for faster internet in England i would like to see a minimum of a 100 mbps as standard for all at a reasonable price
But I don't set government policy on such matters I wish I did but I don't .

I'm sorry if I've gone off topic I was just answering you question honestly as best as I could .

 

[zupallinere]

I will point to my very first post in this thread.

Anyone think a few people in an obscure forum really had that much power over an industry of billions of dollar?
Or was it simply a realization from late market research that lead to the reversal?
Game journalists?
Several microsoft PR mistakes?
Sony E3 biggest cheers in history?
Gamers joining NoDRM campaign?
Preorders numbers?
Negative media exposure?
EA throwing them under the bus?
Angry Joe?

Or all of the above?
(respect for Angry Joe, he's probably banned from MS media event for life, he rocks)

It's always about money. A lot of things affects money. Everything affects money. It's all of the above.

The bolded part is really all you need to know about the dynamics of all involved here. It's very simple to conceive of everything going on as a result of the need to make a profit for all concerned or to minimize the loss of profit and it is also very correct.

MS, for all the cheering, is only interested in money and proposed a structure that maximized it's profit and control of future gaming/entertainment market. That's it's only purpose. It MAY have benefited a lot of folks but only a relatively small demographic would actually benefit now and in the near future. For the average consumer, not the edge cases that buy lots of games/crappy bandwidth caps, it's a mixed bag. The average person loses lots of leverage when it comes to used games but gains little except the chance to minimize disc management.

Forget Family Share and the like as those plans can change at any time.

Sony, same thing, it's about money. We have no idea what their DRM plans were going to be ( rumors just like pastebin is a rumor ) but we do know that they have both feet in the digital future. It seems that they don't see the need to try and dictate things to the consumer, at this time.

MS feels it can maximize profit by dictating terms now, Sony feels it can maximize by not trying to do so. Same motive different ways of implementing it.

 

[zupallinere]

But I never have resold or bought a used game, game discs I am done with I usually just give away.

The only proper way to deal with a game is to destroy it as far as I can tell. Every Time you give a game away you are hurting the industry or so I'm told.

 

[Tap In]

Davros' post said blame MS. Blame them? For what? For getting incessantly slammed by people who were never going to buy the console anyway? As imperfect as polls can be, something like 48% of the people on this forum clicked "was never going to buy an Xbox one and still won't."

I'm sure quite a few of those folks were energetically arguing against the Xbox ones DRM as being "draconian"... Yet their voices drowned out those of us who saw very few problems with the old DRM. Sony didn't have to do a thing. In fact they trumpeted their zero solution. LOL and people applauded.

I only blame MS for not having balls.

Bingo!

 

[brasnial]

The only proper way to deal with a game is to destroy it as far as I can tell. Every Time you give a game away you are hurting the industry or so I'm told.

No you are not every time you give a game or a game machine away to someone less fortunate than your self .
I .E non gamers just starting out .......young kids who can not afford there own copies ...
you are growing the industry as you open new people to the joys of gaming as a hobby .

 

[Tap In]

this whole outrage was based on fear.

Fear that if MS somehow "got away with this" that it would somehow invade their beloved Sony console in the future or affect gaming on the whole (fear of change)

so people who would never had bought an Xbox One anyway because :

-have a low data cap
-are nowhere near an internet connection for 2 minutes each day
-don't like MS or the games on it's machine nor their execs or ideas
-fear of change
-fear they would need to spend more money on games since they couldn't just borrow/rent games or sell to buddy, instead of buy ...
-fear of Kinect
-contempt that MS uses the phrase "the Cloud"
-it's "underpowered"

made it seem like a huge problem when the SOLUTION was simple...

Buy a PS4 instead like they were going to do anyway and let Xbox One owners buy their machine.

The market research, in the long run would have borne out MS to be correct, IMO. long term I have no doubt that had people not thrown a hissy fit, and tainted the well spreading FUD to casual market (GS employees telling people it's evil) to feel comfortable buying a One, it would had succeeded long term.

I saw way more people on forums who were planning on buying a PS4 spending their time in threads abut a machine they were never going to buy (see the poll result for names) than talking about the positive aspects that their machine has. conversely, very few Sony threads get shitted up with people planning on buying a One.

And it's not just because MS has bad news.... it's because people can't let other people have nice things.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

this whole outrage was based on fear.

Fear that if MS somehow "got away with this" that it would somehow invade their beloved Sony console in the future or affect gaming on the whole (fear of change)

so people who would never had bought an Xbox One anyway because :

-have a low data cap
-are nowhere near an internet connection for 2 minutes each day
-don't like MS or the games on it's machine nor their execs or ideas
-fear of change
-fear they would need to spend more money on games since they couldn't just borrow games or sell to buddy, instead of buy ...

made it seem like a huge problem when the SOLUTION was simple...

Buy a PS4 instead like you were going to do anyway and let Xbox One owners buy their machine.

The market research, in the long run would have borne out MS to be correct, IMO. long term I have no doubt that had people not thrown a hissy fit, and tainted the well for casual market (GS employees telling people it's evil) to feel comfortable buying a One, it would had succeeded long term.

I saw way more people who were planning on buying a PS4 spending their time in threads abut a machine they were never going to buy (see the poll result for names) then talking about the positive aspects that their machine has. conversely, very few Sony threads get shitted up with people planning on buying a One.

And it's not just because MS has bad news.... it's because people can't let other people have nice things.

Absolutely, give this man a cigar.

You can take a look at our poll, or any number of polls on any number of other websites. The people bashing what MS had intended were never going to buy one anyway. Reversing their policies and reducing the usefullness of their console has only alienated their customer base. I went from pre-ordering a launch day console to not buying one. And I might not ever buy one. They've killed the very thing that made them different from their competitors.

And yes, as I've said before, this has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that Sony announced they were going to charge for multi-player gaming. Suddenly, Sony fans realized that the Live! subscription model was not only the future, but the present. And they shouted at the roof tops to stop MS's planned digital only future in order to preserve used game sales and game rentals because they knew if MS succeeded then Sony would follow suit. They were never going to buy the MS console to begin with. But they didn't want the precedent set.

So they won. Despite the fact that MS is one of the largest companies to have ever existed, MS backed down to their competitor's fan base, not their own fan base. I'm completely out of words to describe how utterly shocking this is. And it's for that reason that I'm not buying a One. The product that MS was selling and showed us was awesome. Their user base loved it. Their competitor's user base hated it. So they changed their vision? What a bunch of smelly sweaty cow balls over there in Redmond. Seriously.

 

[Davros]

Davros' post said blame MS. Blame them? For what?

For Not allowing you to play games without ever having to swap disks, has it not occurred to that you can have that and your sharing and your renting and whatever the hell you want and people who want discs and the ability to sell them to whoever they want at whatever price they want can have that also. if all those things are not available its because ms has made a choice not to give them to you - thats what you
blame them for..
the people against ms's drm never said "oh ms and please stop people who want their games to be all digital from having that, ms please stop that cloud nonsense, please stop family share"

ps: ms having the ability to shut down every xbox1 game you own, you never explained why thats a good thing for xbox1 owners.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You can take a look at our poll...

How are you interpreting the information that way? Poll "are you going to change platform" has 26:32 for PS3:XB360 respondents, which show a higher population of 360 owners than PS3 on this board (although weighted by who cares to reply). 60% of XB360 owners elected to swap platform. You're saying that these XB360 owners had no interest in getting an XB1 in the first place so it doesn't matter what MS did? Then with the change of DRM policy, a number of them switch to 'renewed interest'. How is that unrelated to MS's DRM choice?

For me the picture is clear - the lambasting of MS has come just as much from existing XB fans, owners of XB360s and probably XB's before that, who wanted to continue their XB experience but felt let down by MS, and said as much. Suggesting it's just Sony fans ranting about DRM is pretty ridiculous reasoning IMO. Unless one has been carefully checking the post history of everyone expressing a negative opinion to see if they are Sony fans (which clearly isn't the case as you have some clear XB fans telling us their history and POV), that sort of sweeping generalisation is probably just the product of a skewed perception.

 

[blakjedi]

Continuing to say that doesn't make it true.

I still have an Xbox 1 (fantastic machine), still have my second 360 (first one RODDED) and still have a Gold membership. Their DRM system was so needlessly awful that it turned me away from the Xbox brand. Now they've U turned (after weeks of bullshit from professional bullshitters) I'll consider getting one again.

MS obviously thought there were others like me.

You should stop with this angle of "weren't going to buy the console anyway".

Did you miss that I kinda pointed to the poll of this site?

 

[scooby_dooby]

this whole outrage was based on fear.

Fear that if MS somehow "got away with this" that it would somehow invade their beloved Sony console in the future or affect gaming on the whole (fear of change)

It's not fear, it's value.

If you're going to tell people that you're taking things away, then explain what you're giving them in return! Not complicated. If you're not lowering the price on your digital content (Steam/iOS), then you better do an amazing job of painting a picture of all the benefits we're going to get in return... especially when your restrictions are so nasty! (You can't sell your game AND we're gonna check in every 24hrs)

Microsoft failed miserably here. Just total epic lack of any salesmanship, inspiration or vision. They really, really, really needed to sell this. They needed a Steve Jobs.

I also still think the 24-hr check in, big brother thing is just a complete non-starter and I'm not sure how the hell that ever made it out of the meeting room. You can't start killing people's consoles as soon as you lose an internet connection for an extended period. That's just idiotic.

Maybe the idea wasn't inspiring because the idea just sucked? I still wish we would've got to see it come to fruition though. But *shrug* I think both systems will have pretty killer Digital Delivery services anyways. I'm playing Last of Us, digitally, on PS3 right now, and it was a pretty good purchase experience.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There is no need for hostility and insults and abuse. It's not healthy to be that attached to your CE devices that you want to slag off someone who's interpretation of events is different to yours, nor is it healthy to pursue victory in an internet argument. Think about all the other more productive things you could be doing with your time, like playing games.

This thread needs cold water pouring on it, and that come from bansticks giving people time-out to simmer down. With the all infractions being issued at the moment, you'd hope people would pick up on that without it needing to go that far.

 

[blakjedi]

How are you interpreting the information that way? Poll "are you going to change platform" .

Wrong poll baby boy!

This one is the target.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=63884

 

[Tap In]

...Suggesting it's just Sony fans ranting about DRM is pretty ridiculous reasoning IMO. .

agreed it is not "Just" however more than a small contingent of vocal, persistent arguments and outrages were being made over the past few months by people who would not have purchased a One (with the DRM or other points I noted). -yes see blakjedi's poll link

My point was if one were not gong to buy the product as offered, buy the OTHER one and quit trying to change the market of the one you really disdain. (the DRM one)

So my point still stands IMO, if they don't like it don't buy it.

People who decided DRM was not for them, chose to create this mess in part due to fear that it would cause industry change, under the guise of "consumer rights".

There were other choices in the marketplace, the consumer was free to choose one of those...without resorting to guerilla, tactical FUD

 

[zupallinere]

-fear of change

People fear a lot of things.

Lemme ask you a question. You have 2 stores with products that are the same price. One store lets you return a product with a restock fee the other store doesn't let you return the product but allows you the convenience of free shipping to your door. Which one would you choose. One gives you a way to recoup some of the value if the transaction stinks for the consumer the other offers a certain amount of guaranteed convenience. Different people make different choices.

 

[blakjedi]

You can't start killing people's consoles as soon as you lose an internet connection for an extended period. That's just idiotic.

This part I agree with. Most of the folks that I interact with on XBL just wanted THAT part fixed. Give me a way to still play offline if the loss of internet is beyond my control and voila. Problem solved. The vision and the benefits of the rest of the package were clear.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Davros' post said blame MS. Blame them? For what? For getting incessantly slammed by people who were never going to buy the console anyway?

I'm sure quite a few of those folks were energetically arguing against the Xbox ones DRM as being "draconian"...

Your interpretation of the numbers is incorrect. Yes, a part of the population who complained about DRM were not going to buy the console anywhere as they are Sony fans. That does not mean all people complaining were Sony fans. The other part of the polls is 60% of XB360 owners choosing to change platform. Ergo some of the voices were never going to buy XB1, some were going to wait and see, some were XB fans really upset over the DRM, some were always going to buy it no matter what MS did.

Sweeping generalisations about who's posting what arguments undermines the principle of intelligent discussion and makes discussion irrelevant.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

My point was if one were not gong to buy the product as offered, buy the OTHER one and quit trying to change the market of the one you really disdain. (the DRM one)

So my point still stands IMO, if you don't like it don't buy it.

Only true if the products were completely interchangeable. What if someone wants Kinect experience, Halo, their Live friendlists, and no DRM? What are their options?

1) Buy PS4 and go without Kinect, Halo, and Live
2) Buy XB1 and get stuck with DRM you don't want
3) Kick up a stink and hope to change it to get everything you want

There's nothing wrong with the latter in principle (right to an opinion, right to peaceful protest, etc.)

 

[Tap In]

This part I agree with. Most of the folks that I interact with on XBL just wanted THAT part fixed. Give me a way to still play offline if the loss of internet is beyond my control and voila. Problem solved. The vision and the benefits of the rest of the package were clear.

yes that would have been a great compromise rather than toss out the whole tub..

I still have hope that they are now regrouping to make digital only an even more attractive choice over Disc, early release, cheaper, trade vale, share, gift. etc... to give people a reason to forgo discs... I just don't know if retailers/pubs etc will allow it