XBox One, PS4, DRM, and You

[function]

Did you miss that I kinda pointed to the poll of this site?

You should probably take another looks at the poll data (from before and after the U turn). I think it shows that MS were losing existing customers that may otherwise be more inclined to stay with Xbox. Shifty has broken it down pretty well in his post above.

Wrong poll baby boy!

This one is the target.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=63884

That poll shows that at a stroke MS have gotten many people here to reconsider the Xbox. There were 20 people in the first poll who chose "I own a Microsoft console and will change to PS4". There were a total of 21 in the second poll who said either "I wasn't going to buy an XB1 because of the DRM, but now I will" or "I wasn't going to buy XB1 in part due to DRM, but now I might".

This issue has the potential to influence lots a large proportion of current Xbox 360 owners and potential Xbox One owners.

 

[function]

So my point still stands IMO, if they don't like it don't buy it.

That's exactly what Microsoft were scared of, and why they completely reversed their policy.

 

[Tap In]

Only true if the products were completely interchangeable. What if someone wants Kinect experience, Halo, their Live friendlists, and no DRM? What are their options?

1) Buy PS4 and go without Kinect, Halo, and Live
2) Buy XB1 and get stuck with DRM you don't want
3) Kick up a stink and hope to change it to get everything you want

There's nothing wrong with the latter in principle (right to an opinion, right to peaceful protest, etc.)

I agree there were people in those situations as well it was not singularly the "Sony base" but they were indeed a large voice in this just by the sheer posts on the internet. Reading threads here and other places on the internet regarding, if dropping the DRM has changed their mind... overwhelmingly the answer is "nah... Kinect, Cloud, underpowered, disrespect".

Very few (but yes, some) say, Thank goodness I can have my Halo and Forza now.

 

[zupallinere]

...to make digital only an even more attractive choice...

That is what all of this mishegas is all about !

 

[blakjedi]

Your interpretation of the numbers is incorrect. Yes, a part of the population who complained about DRM were not going to buy the console anywhere as they are Sony fans. That does not mean all people complaining were Sony fans. The other part of the polls is 60% of XB360 owners choosing to change platform. Ergo some of the voices were never going to buy XB1, some were going to wait and see, some were XB fans really upset over the DRM, some were always going to buy it no matter what MS did.

Sweeping generalisations about who's posting what arguments undermines the principle of intelligent discussion and makes discussion irrelevant.

No way man.

You guys allow us to drill down into the numbers to see who they are

almighty, AlStrong, ArcticCircle, Bagel seed, BoardBonobo, Brad Grenz, catisfit, cjo, crabbz, cychris, deathindustrial, Delta9, DieH@rd, DJ12, djskribbles, DrJay24, Enzyme, fellix, Grall, homerdog, James Car, jayco, kalelovil, Kb-Smoker, kots, Love_In_Rio, macabre, manux, mboeller, menmau, MrFox, MrSpiggott, NathansFortune, Nisaaru, oramay, Orion, Phil, Prophecy2k, Strange, Vardant, Wynix

I don't know everyone on that list but there are definitely a few folks in that list who are "Sony" only who argued very loudly.

A lot of people try to paint me as an MS fanboy for whatever reason, but I don't even really play my 360. I'm currently working through this godforsaken mine level of Gunslinger: Call of Juarez on PS3.

80% of my purchases this generation have been Sony oriented.

That doesn't keep me from seeing the value proposition of the XB One in terms of innovation and my entertainment lifestyle. That also does not preclude me from calling out the unfair shake the press has given the XB One in the media.

We know ALOT more about the XB One than the PS4. All we really know about the PS4 are the specs and the PR from E3. Everything about the XBO has been sliced diced minced and then inflammatorily extrapolated to what kind of company MS is and by extension what kind of people who want those MS products are.

Its insulting to be called a shill because you like a device and defend a policy you don't have any issues with. Draconian is the new buzzword being flung around with very little meaning but its sounds menacing... and no one wants to be associated with a "weak" but menacing gamebox... right?

 

[XpiderMX]

I will buy the console with the games I like, independently of DRM o not DRM.

 

[Tap In]

That's exactly what Microsoft were scared of, and why they completely reversed their policy.

I disagree
I believe them when they said that their market research showed it would outlast the Core and permeate the mass market. But... the outrage which turned to FUD was appearing to threaten the mass market.

We had Best Buy stores with employee made signs up saying how MS was evil and GS employees saying same... certain websites were writing stories on the web that got readers because they agreed with the core's points based on fear, that led to mainstream outlets reporting on the "outrage" not the facts that they are mostly innocuous policies in the grand scheme of the MASS market (100 million).

That goes beyond making a choice it goes to scaring people who do not understand the logistics just the essence, The essence was being swayed by those fearful of the Digital future IMO

 

[XpiderMX]

I can't remember the first days of Steam... Did Valve went through the same thing?

 

[function]

The essence was being swayed by those fearful of the Digital future IMO.

You are once again incorrectly conflating "digital future" with "Microsoft's particular implementation of a DRM system."

 

[Tap In]

No way man.

You guys allow us to drill down into the numbers to see who they are

almighty, AlStrong, ArcticCircle, Bagel seed, BoardBonobo, Brad Grenz, catisfit, cjo, crabbz, cychris, deathindustrial, Delta9, DieH@rd, DJ12, djskribbles, DrJay24, Enzyme, fellix, Grall, homerdog, James Car, jayco, kalelovil, Kb-Smoker, kots, Love_In_Rio, macabre, manux, mboeller, menmau, MrFox, MrSpiggott, NathansFortune, Nisaaru, oramay, Orion, Phil, Prophecy2k, Strange, Vardant, Wynix

I don't know everyone on that list but there are definitely a few folks in that list who are "Sony" only who argued very loudly.

A lot of people try to paint me as an MS fanboy for whatever reason, but I don't even really play my 360. I'm currently working through this godforsaken mine level of Gunslinger: Call of Juarez on PS3.

80% of my purchases this generation have been Sony oriented.

That doesn't keep me from seeing the value proposition of the XB One in terms of innovation and my entertainment lifestyle. That also does not preclude me from calling out the unfair shake the press has given the XB One in the media.

We know ALOT more about the XB One than the PS4. All we really know about the PS4 are the specs and the PR from E3. Everything about the XBO has been sliced diced minced and then inflammatorily extrapolated to what kind of company MS is and by extension what kind of people who want those MS products are.

Its insulting to be called a shill because you like a device and defend a policy you don't have any issues with. Draconian is the new buzzword being flung around with very little meaning but its sounds menacing... and no one wants to be associated with a "weak" but menacing gamebox... right?

agreed, i's sad to see people personally attacking others over a game machine policy that 1) they did not have to buy for 90% same experience and 2) that they were never intending on buying anyway (as was the case in may of the posts going after this issue)

there are opinions of both side of an argument, the facts as shown above, are in the center.

You are once again incorrectly conflating "digital future" with "Microsoft's particular implementation of a DRM system."

perhaps. But it was the first/only choice console owners had for a Digital future and we still hadn't heard all their ideas yet. A lot of the ideas we had heard sounded just great to me and others...it was then our choice to buy their product or not.

Essentially blackballing a product (especially one said blackballers would not even purchase) because some didn't like the offering seems a little overwrought to me.

it is not air, water nor sustenance ... it's games.

 

[brasnial]

I've been very vocal about my opinion of wanting a digital future with the same options we have now .
In my opinion Microsoft were on the right track they were making more concessions than steam does .or apple or Android .

I don't understand anyone taking up a banner against a machine they had no interest in buying .
If someone did get involved in a issue that was never going to affect them ......then shame on you surely you have better things to do than bitch about things that would never effect you .

But name calling and accusations have no place in a rational discussion and should be left on the school playground where they belong in my opinion .
Peace is a far harder road than war because it needs level heads willing to compromise on both sides

 

[function]

perhaps. But it was the first/only choice console owners had for a Digital future and we still hadn't heard all their ideas yet.

The right product is more important than taking the first choice we're presented with. And we hadn't heard all their ideas because they wouldn't tell us. And there was no shortage of people asking. They. Just. Wouldn't. Tell us.

A lot of the ideas we had heard sounded just great to me and others...it was then our choice to buy their product or not.

And MS didn't like the choice a lot of people said they were going to make.

Essentially blackballing a product (especially one said blackballers would not even purchase)...

You shouldn't be able to get away with repeatedly trolling like this.

 

[patsu]

this whole outrage was based on fear.

This may be true.

First, the publishers fear used games. MS allegedly proposed and implemented a DRM scheme to capitalize on that fear. Word on the new DRM leaked out.

People complained on the net for _months_. MS did not address their concerns at all. People thought MS fired Adam "Deal with it" Orth for confirming the DRM. They became increasingly impatient and started to distrust MS. They fear that MS will focus on the larger but "ignorant" Kinect mass-market crowd to overrule/overrun their feedback.

In their May announcement, MS unwittingly confirmed that they are indeed after the TV crowd, plus Adam was telling the truth all along. There was an uproar. Angry people who debated for months felt that MS has betrayed the gamers. MS executives got scared and publicly stated conflicting "confirmations" about what Xbox One can/cannot do.

This confuse the people even more, and further solidifies people's fear that MS is trying to pull a fast one. Or they just don't know what's right or wrong anymore.

In E3, Sony confirmed a cheaper and more liberal alternative. Without any way out, the dominant choice is to buy/pre-order the competing product. GameStop jumped in to protect their interest. The rest is history.

For months, MS had every opportunity to change and shape things. Instead they chose to avoid the engagement for such a long time. They allowed negative feelings to harbor, spouted confusing and self defeating messages (e.g., Don Matrick: luckily there is no new DRM on 360). It seems that MS themselves knew the scheme was "wrong", but they never did discuss any countermeasure or sweetener until it was way too late.

It's the MS executives who stirred up the storm voluntarily and unprepared. The publishers stay in the shadow and learn from the incident.

The digital future will be fine. Someone will get it right. MS no doubt will give it another stab in the future. We might even have both offline and online DRM working together side by side. Next time, the vendors should start with the people's benefits instead of the used game economy/fear.

 

[function]

I don't understand anyone taking up a banner against a machine they had no interest in buying .
If someone did get involved in a issue that was never going to affect them ......then shame on you surely you have better things to do than bitch about things that would never effect you .

I "got involved" primarily because I've been an Xbox gamer for over a decade. I even bought a Kinect. New. Not even as part of a package. I just bought one.

But I think it's perfectly reasonable for people who didn't want Xbone to criticise an anti-consumer, rights stripping product, especially if it represents a possible future staus quo that would harm everyone.

I don't like the idea that people should only be able to talk about a product or a policy that they are fans of or intend to buy into. I don't think that kind of attitude is healthy.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

No way man.

You guys allow us to drill down into the numbers to see who they are

I don't know everyone on that list but there are definitely a few folks in that list who are "Sony" only who argued very loudly.

Right. So you're just using sweeping generalisations. Being called a shill is no more fun than being called a Sony fanbot by association (XB owners complaining about the DRM), because people are talking in these generalised terms without naming anyone because no-one quite knows who are the Sony fanbots and who are the MS fanbots.

Unless you know for a certainty who is arguing just for the sake of arguing, with no intention to buy the console and with no legitimate complaint either (a view on DRM is allowed even if you don't intend to buy the XB1. People are allowed views on stuff they've never done or never had and never will), your complaint is too sweeping to be of any use the conversation, and in dismissing those unnamed, uncounted people, you also dismiss those with legitimate complaints who were possible customers for XB1.

At the end of the day, the discussion should always revolve around the topic, not the posters. If your argument hinges on the population you're addressing, one, you're never going to get through to them, and two, you're going to have to have an incredibly good measure of the population or you'll be grouping a whole load of dissociated people into your argument. eg. "The opinions of Europeans don't matter as they are mostly Sony fanbots" would alienate European XB and Wii (U) owners (owner, in the case of Wii U ), dismissing their opinions.

 

[zupallinere]

I disagree
I believe them when they said that their market research showed it would outlast the Core and permeate the mass market.

Looks like Microsoft market research folks got lots more data to work with this week.

But... the outrage which turned to FUD was appearing to threaten the mass market.

This was a MS Management failure and one of they ways it showed itself was in a failing PR campaign. I'm sorry MANAGEMENT signs off on everything PR does.

The Mass Market is used to selling the stuff they buy, at fair market value (i.e. whatever they can get for it ) and now MS said that they were going to be stopped from doing so. You might not care about selling off what you buy to mitigate the cost but the Mass Market does unless someone has some data to prove otherwise.

Please no comparisons to Steam or Itunes to Kindle etc. etc. etc. Those system operate in open markets compared to consoles.

 

[brasnial]

Looks like Microsoft market research folks got lots more data to work with this week.



This was a MS Management failure and one of they ways it showed itself was in a failing PR campaign. I'm sorry MANAGEMENT signs off on everything PR does.

The Mass Market is used to selling the stuff they buy, at fair market value (i.e. whatever they can get for it ) and now MS said that they were going to be stopped from doing so. You might not care about selling off what you buy to mitigate the cost but the Mass Market does unless someone has some data to prove otherwise.

Please no comparisons to Steam or Itunes to Kindle etc. etc. etc. Those system operate in open markets compared to consoles.

I would argue the opposite the mass market who by apple and Android tablets and phones fully understand they only have access to the content they buy as long as they keep to one or the other .
The minute they switch or choose to not use that product anymore they no they will lose access to all content brought from each market place .

I would argue the masses have excepted this already about digital content and us gamers are struggling to find away to make digital work better than it does now .

 

[XpiderMX]

Please no comparisons to Steam or Itunes to Kindle etc. etc. etc. Those system operate in open markets compared to consoles.

iTunes is a close market distribution system, it works only with apple products.

And Steam works with games in PC, and at 2003, DRM was not a widely used system in PC. It is not the same than a console implementation, but I only want to know how people thought about it.

 

[MrFox]

I think there was a big poker play here.

One gambled losing publishers.
The other gambled losing gamers.

Why do I care about the xbox DRM while I won't buy one? It's complicated. In short, they would have dragged the whole industry down with them. As Jack Tretton said "a rising tide lifts all ships". MS failing in the business would be very bad for the industry, therefore for us all.

When the ps4nodrm movement started, I was trying to understand why there was such a disconnect between ps gamers and xbox gamers. It was clear from Sony's public comments and gloating that they already decided not to implement online DRM, making the whole unveiling being "all about the gamers, gamer centric, etc...". At some point I thought there could be two different markets working in parallel, and the gamers will decide which console they prefer.

Here's the problem: The xbox crowd kept hammering fear that "Sony won't have any choice", "You're all being played", "Sony will do exactly what MS does, otherwise MS wins all third parties". That fear was real, there was a good possibility MS had gotten lots of exclusives in exchange for an aggressive DRM, and yes, in that case it's Sony which would have done a 180 today. It would have been a horrible situation for both Sony and playstation fans if they had to backpedal.

MS was hammering on continuously disrespecting gamers, beginning early with "deal with it". It made us believe they were getting something in return from publishers (what moron exec would piss off half their customers with nothing in return?). They obviously thought the gamers didn't matter and misjudged the situation badly. Sony has been steady and were gloating long before E3.

The negotiations with third parties were obviously happening, and EA being completely absent from Sony's events produced a lot of fear that MS had EA in their pockets. But it didn't happen, when EA threw MS under the bus, we were relieved. They will remain a fair third party and are working to rebuild their reputation. They had to say candidly "It wasn't us requesting online DRM, we didn't want that", it goes to show they were in the middle of the crossfire. I'll make a wild guess that the moment they canceled online pass was when they decided to rebuild their reputation instead of making a shady deal. They'll make more money that way.

 

[zupallinere]

iTunes is a close market distribution system

Music sales spans Itunes closed market system. It's just that iTunes get's thrown around a lot and I get tired of pointing out that it isn't the same thing as the console world. There are competing services for digital downloads of music , with different forms of authentication and DRM ( not much anymore ... ) AND physical media that CAN be sold and bought used. Apples and oranges if you ask me. Make that apples and orangutans