Xbox Business Update Podcast | Xbox Everywhere Direction Discussion

[cheapchips]

I wasn't aware that MS shared store revenue with big box stores. That's HUGE important information if true.

Source, other than my aging brain! It was Gamestop. What I would say, give how the Series S trade in at Game and Series X All Access sign up at Smyths worked for us in the UK, I suspect it's not just a Gamestop deal.

Microsoft will give GameStop a share of Xbox’s digital revenues

But the size of the unprecedented revenue-sharing deal is up for debate.

arstechnica.com

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Some notable caveats on that:

The first sign of this new revenue-sharing arrangement actually came somewhat hidden in a press release GameStop issued last week, trumpeting a "Multi-year Strategic Partnership with Microsoft." That announcement focused heavily on GameStop agreeing to use Microsoft's cloud-based infrastructure for its back-end sales systems and a deal for store associates to start using Microsoft Surface tablets going forward.

GS were giving a lot back.

That said, I think it'd behove MS to share revenue with OEMs on an open Xbox platform to make it worth their while regardless whether they'd have been willing in the past. Although I guess precariously, you'd have a sense of competition to undercut other vendors to secure the sale and get lifetime revenues, meaning something of a race-to-bottom model and a repeat of the 90's PC clone wars where only the largest survived.

 

[rntongo]

This is one of the best videos I've watched recently that summarizes the current state of consoles. Its more pertinent to Xbox because they have just incessantly stepped onto rakes(in multiple directions) ever since the launch of the Xbox One.

 

[MfA]

It will be interesting to see how this is implemented considering even the SteamDeck has quite some compatibility issues despite access to a fairly large library of precompiled shaders. I dont doubt MS has better resources they can put towards this if they implemented the OEM model but it would be a huge task regardless.

Microsoft would probably tell AMD/NVIDIA/Intel "support SR-IOV for us or fuck off". They'd be running standard windows drivers.

 

[Cyan]

This is one of the best videos I've watched recently that summarizes the current state of consoles. Its more pertinent to Xbox because they have just incessantly stepped onto rakes(in multiple directions) ever since the launch of the Xbox One.

another issue with the current generation of consoles is that they aren't the best tech nor forward-thinking and innovative setting trends devices like they were in the past. This generation probably has the weakest hardware to date.

People who got the PS2 had a DVD player at home. Nintendo 64 with Mario 64 and other games set trends for how to make 3D games (back in 1995 most PS1 games were 2D games with a few polygons here and there) and how to control them with the gamepad.

X360 created achievements, gamercards, a solid online, group chats, good instant messaging, had a built-in mic, etc etc.

When the N64 launched, people were saying that N64 games like Wave Race 64 had better graphics than the arcades, a 300$? console was beating a top end 10000$ arcade machine.

Then a GPU that I had, the Voodoo 3DFX (the Monster 3D in my case) came out and beat the N64 and PS1 to a pulp, but yeah.

Now the difference between a 550$ console and a 3000$ machine with a RTX 4090 is much, much larger than the difference in the 90s between a console that was worth 300€ at today's exchange rate vs an arcade which cost 10000€.

Today's consoles are garbage compared to those of the 90s if you compared 90s consoles with the best devices on the market. The consoles were high-end before, now they are not even low-end.

 

[Cyan]

The XboxOS/store games can be seamless. If OEMs provide different hardware configs, it still shouldn't be that much bother to create shade caches for those variants, similar to SteamOS

that's the key. The most important thing is the games, so if it OEM model goes well, perfect.

Also the software. If the software does its magic, OEMs are just vehicles to run that software as intuitively as possible.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

another issue with the current generation of consoles is that they aren't the best tech nor forward-thinking and innovative setting trends devices like they were in the past. This generation probably has the weakest hardware to date.

People who got the PS2 had a DVD player at home. Nintendo 64 with Mario 64 and other games set trends for how to make 3D games (back in 1995 most PS1 games were 2D games with a few polygons here and there) and how to control them with the gamepad.

X360 created achievements, gamercards, a solid online, group chats, good instant messaging, had a built-in mic, etc etc.

When the N64 launched, people were saying that N64 games like Wave Race 64 had better graphics than the arcades, a 300$? console was beating a top end 10000$ arcade machine.

Then a GPU that I had, the Voodoo 3DFX (the Monster 3D in my case) came out and beat the N64 and PS1 to a pulp, but yeah.

Now the difference between a 550$ console and a 3000$ machine with a RTX 4090 is much, much larger than the difference in the 90s between a console that was worth 300€ at today's exchange rate vs an arcade which cost 10000€.

Today's consoles are garbage compared to those of the 90s if you compared 90s consoles with the best devices on the market. The consoles were high-end before, now they are not even low-end.

I look at Hellblade 2 and realize that the consoles are NOT underpowered. SSD alone makes the generation worth it.

It's also really weird that you think that the solution is for OEMs to make profits on hardware and thus console owners getting less bang for their buck. It makes no sense to me.

 

[Cyan]

It's also really weird that you think that the solution is for OEMs to make profits on hardware and thus console owners getting less bang for their buck.

where did I say that?

I look at Hellblade 2 and realize that the consoles are NOT underpowered. SSD alone makes the generation worth it.

There are now more powerful PCs in the market than what the PS6 or the Next Xbox will be, if it even exists. Except for the PS5 Pro, RT on consoles is pseudo RT -basically anything RDNA 2 RT-.

And a powerful PC nowadays costs the equivalent of 10 times less than what an arcade machine used to cost, or PCs at the time. My first PC ever cost 3000€ and it was just a Pentium 100MHz with 32MB and a truly HORRIBLE Trident 2MB VGA card whose diskette with the driver included the Natas virus :/ -very dangerous this one at the time- and the drivers were so horrible that blue screens of death caused by such a horrible GPU were common.

 

[eastmen]

The XboxOS/store games can be seamless. If OEMs provide different hardware configs, it still shouldn't be that much bother to create shade caches for those variants, similar to SteamOS.

As for the full PC side and other stores, there's a variety of ways they can run that virtual machine/experience. Think Heroic Launcher on the Deck, GeForce Now or Luna.

It's not just shader caches.

You would either need to go the pc route that would require end users to pick what settings work best for their hardware

or

Have the oems test every single game and pre select settings on a game for game setting on every single one of their varients.

 

[eastmen]

Losing MS even more money? I don't understand the argument here regards the OEM hardware theory. If OEMs will be making hardware, they need high margins. MS makes money on the software. Only now you allow third party stores on these 'X boxes'? Then they are just PCs. What is MS's business in this case? They supply IHVs with a copy of Windows with an XBox branded wallpaper?

Yea I have been saying this for a long time now.

There is literally zero point to an xbox oem. It will just be a pc with an xbox skin. Why would people buy an xbox oem and not just run steam for all their games. If that happens where is the profit for MS?

 

[cheapchips]

It's not just shader caches.

You would either need to go the pc route that would require end users to pick what settings work best for their hardware

or

Have the oems test every single game and pre select settings on a game for game setting on every single one of their varients.

We know the team are working on forward compatibility, without really knowing what that entails. For Xbox profile games, at a minimum, you could have OEMboxes staying at higher res in dynamic resolution games. It could also run at higher average fps in 120 VRR performance mode. That's all has a quite a 'Pro' appeal.

It also sets the stage for generation-less Xbox hardware. A 2/3 year revision has the same value as the more expensive OEM variants that proceeded it.

On top of that, OEM boxes could perform better in Windows / alt store mode.

Plenty of selling points from that without diluting Xbox mode with PC-like settings.

 

[MfA]

Have the oems test every single game and pre select settings on a game for game setting on every single one of their varients.

Which is not necessarily much work. Look at Chromebook, only a couple boards come out each year.

Also they could let the player choose, play the console version, or play the PC version with mods and settings on the same machine.

PS. also you could play online multiplayer games on the console mode without some shitty third party rootkit.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

where did I say that?


There are now more powerful PCs in the market than what the PS6 or the Next Xbox will be, if it even exists.

That's likely not true, especially for the PS6 as it's further out apparently. Even if it is true, it's more because of the insanity in the PC/NVidia market than anything else. People weren't willing to pay $3000 for video cards back in the PS2 era.

And a powerful PC nowadays costs the equivalent of 10 times less than what an arcade machine used to cost, or PCs at the time. My first PC ever cost 3000€ and it was just a Pentium 100MHz with 32MB and a truly HORRIBLE Trident 2MB VGA card whose diskette with the driver included the Natas virus :/ -very dangerous this one at the time- and the drivers were so horrible that blue screens of death caused by such a horrible GPU were common.

Just because you got ripped off on your first PC doesn't validate what you're saying. The consoles are still amazing value and producing very good visuals for $400. Almost no one playing HB2 is disappointed in its visuals. Wait until GTA6, Gears 6, Fable, and whatever Naughty Dog are working on come out. People won't be complaining about X and PS5 power at that point. The problem is that it takes 5-6 years to make a AAA game now. If new consoles were super custom proprietary hardware that a ton of people around here are clamoring for, AAA games would take 8 years to make.

 

[rntongo]

That's likely not true, especially for the PS6 as it's further out apparently. Even if it is true, it's more because of the insanity in the PC/NVidia market than anything else. People weren't willing to pay $3000 for video cards back in the PS2 era.

Just because you got ripped off on your first PC doesn't validate what you're saying. The consoles are still amazing value and producing very good visuals for $400. Almost no one playing HB2 is disappointed in its visuals. Wait until GTA6, Gears 6, Fable, and whatever Naughty Dog are working on come out. People won't be complaining about X and PS5 power at that point. The problem is that it takes 5-6 years to make a AAA game now. If new consoles were super custom proprietary hardware that a ton of people around here are clamoring for, AAA games would take 8 years to make.

How the turn tables turn. I am finding myself agreeing with my arch nemesis Johnny Awesome.

 

[Charlietus]

Which is not necessarily much work. Look at Chromebook, only a couple boards come out each year.

Also they could let the player choose, play the console version, or play the PC version with mods and settings on the same machine.

PS. also you could play online multiplayer games on the console mode without some shitty third party rootkit.

Why wouldn't publishers and developers just take the steam PC version and upload it on the Xbox store? If it's just PC hardware with a custom "console like" windows install it would be a waste for developers to make yet another version of the game.
Supporting the new machines would be trivial.

 

[rntongo]

We know the team are working on forward compatibility, without really knowing what that entails. For Xbox profile games, at a minimum, you could have OEMboxes staying at higher res in dynamic resolution games. It could also run at higher average fps in 120 VRR performance mode. That's all has a quite a 'Pro' appeal.

It also sets the stage for generation-less Xbox hardware. A 2/3 year revision has the same value as the more expensive OEM variants that proceeded it.

On top of that, OEM boxes could perform better in Windows / alt store mode.

Plenty of selling points from that without diluting Xbox mode with PC-like settings.

Licensed Xboxes is one thing if they dont execute flawlessly could end up going sideways in different directions quicker than anything else they've ever done. If it even works flawlessly enough for the average consumer not to get irritated and go buy a PS5 pro or Series X or Switch. Otherwise due to the business model it could be a great alternative to PC gamers and eat into that market. For $1000 you get a decently powerful machine, the most powerful "console". I can see how this could be compelling for PC gamers if it gives more access to the OS than the traditional Xbox console. Otherwise if it doesnt then who will it really be for? And most parents would rather buy their young children(5-12) traditional consoles still so they dont have to fiddle with any settings or whatever so it has to be as easy to use and flawless as the Switch/PS5/Series X from the get go. But if they launch these licensed Xboxes with the Xbox OS + Windows, it will just be a platform for piracy. The incentive will be quite high. I would only expect it to run a custom Xbox OS that lets you add the Steam Game Store. Again it just goes to show how convoluted this whole thing is.

I can see why it may be compelling to end generations but developers much prefer the stability of fixed systems and their positive impact on the gaming SDLC. Its not something I expect to change for at least the next 10 years. Every generation is equally propelled as it is held back by console hw. Its a necessary evil or a blessing but not anything else. Generations dying isnt possible because AAA gaming software needs to be designed to specific fixed hw for it to work flawlessly for the mass of consumers.

 

[MfA]

Why wouldn't publishers and developers just take the steam PC version and upload it on the Xbox store?

Microsoft would never certify them as console releases. If they want the customers who never want to boot into normal Windows, they need to release a proper xbox version.

If it's just PC hardware with a custom "console like" windows install

It already is, there's just no windows like windows install at the moment.

 

[MfA]

Generations dying isnt possible because AAA gaming software needs to be designed to specific fixed hw for it to work flawlessly for the mass of consumers.

Most games are made for 3 consoles (soon 4) and often an entire spectrum of PCs at the moment.

 

[Charlietus]

Microsoft would never certify them as console releases. If they want the customers who never want to boot into normal Windows, they need to release a proper xbox version.

It already is, there's just no windows like windows install at the moment.

If you power up the machine and it boots in to a Xbox interface, and you have to go in to some submenu to access the windows interface, there would be no certification. Wouldn't really be that different from a normal console, like the steam deck.

 

[rntongo]

Most games are made for 3 consoles (soon 4) and often an entire spectrum of PCs at the moment.

With a lot of nuances