Xbox Business Update Podcast | Xbox Everywhere Direction Discussion

[Cyan]

This is all murky. One core distinction between PC and consoles is precompiled shaders otherwise you end up with just another PC. So the licensed Xboxes from OEMs would need to have some sort of custom fixed hw similar to what you see with Steam Deck and consoles otherwise they'd just be PCs because you have to compile the shaders to the specific hw.

that's MS job to add a similar feature in DirectX. Steam Deck has it 'cos of Vulkan. This would greatly benefit Windows.

Do developers make custom builds and optimizations for steam deck?

afaik, they don't, but there are games like Cyberpunk with a setting called Steam Deck.

It's MS job to standardize hardware requirements so a setting like that could be added to any PC game. With their money and expertise they can do it, and again, Windows is one of their most successful business and it'd benefit the OS, and of course the gamers who would still have almost infinite backwards compatibility and freedom to tinker for those with the know-how.

 

[function]

Without building for a specific machine you'll have shader compilation, driver overheads, driver versions and much higher DX12 overheads.

If MS release a "true console", they always have the option of additional Windows compatible mode that can run in a VM and be less optimised but more flexible, like a Steam Deck.

 

[iroboto]

I think just following along; you’ve artificially locked change except for the element that Xbox is working its way out of hardware. And it leads to unrealistic views of where MS and the industry is headed.

At its core, DirectX will be required even by Sony to release games on PC, and PC continues to grow because that is where the black hole titles are being played.

If you expand your thinking in all directions, it’s very difficult to land back on the conclusion that MS is just going to hand over the industry to Sony. They’ve invested far too much into it to go that path and there is significantly more money to be made or they wouldn’t have done it.

 

[Cyan]

Without building for a specific machine you'll have shader compilation, driver overheads, driver versions and much higher DX12 overheads.

If MS release a "true console", they always have the option of additional Windows compatible mode that can run in a VM and be less optimised but more flexible, like a Steam Deck.

the challenge here is standardizing the base hardware -a handheld level hardware-. There are obstacles.

DirectX must support shader compilation like consoles and Steam Deck. The way to have a chance against Steam is optimisation, the only weakness of Steam.

Cyberpunk 2077 and other games already have a setting called "Steam Deck", easy like a regular console experience. Standarize Xbox settings.

Give OEM manufacturers software that allows them to use Windows Lite with an interface that works well on devices like Lenovo Legion Go or desktop consoles.

And then tell them which GPUs would be compatible based on rasterization and RT performance, and a certification, so OEMs could build Xboxes with the required performance.

It could also be suitable for Playstation for the games they publish on PC, because if they guarantee that the games will work well for you, unlike on Steam, those standards even if the game sold more in the Steam store, it would mean there would be many fewer refunds due to lack of performance.

 

[Cyan]

At its core, DirectX will be required even by Sony to release games on PC

talking of which, MS could create a HUB for any vendor to create their own store. Say the Playstation Store within Windows Store.

Sony could sell the Xbox Sony VAIO and launch the device with their own store highlighted. Sony wouldn't have to create a store, but could hightlight their own on the MS device.

MS doesn't have control of the income in certain stores, although it could be partially compensated by a sale of a Windows license coming with each device. Also instead of taking a 20% or 30% of each game, every sale on that store HUB could create a revenue.

Also MS could offer the best experience in their store and well, since they are open consoles, there would be many people who would subscribe to the Gamepass, and keep Xbox loyals with backwards compatibility with previous Xbox consoles.

nVidia could also have their own console launching the nVidia BoXSuperShield 4090Ti store, and so on.

 

[eastmen]

the challenge here is standardizing the base hardware -a handheld level hardware-. There are obstacles.

DirectX must support shader compilation like consoles and Steam Deck. The way to have a chance against Steam is optimisation, the only weakness of Steam.

Cyberpunk 2077 and other games already have a setting called "Steam Deck", easy like a regular console experience. Standarize Xbox settings.

Give OEM manufacturers software that allows them to use Windows Lite with an interface that works well on devices like Lenovo Legion Go or desktop consoles.

And then tell them which GPUs would be compatible based on rasterization and RT performance, and a certification, so OEMs could build Xboxes with the required performance.

It could also be suitable for Playstation for the games they publish on PC, because if they guarantee that the games will work well for you, unlike on Steam, those standards even if the game sold more in the Steam store, it would mean there would be many fewer refunds due to lack of performance.

So how many times in the past has microsoft tried to standardize performance metrics on the pc ? I remember at least one other time when you'd get your pc score in windows

 

[rntongo]

Do developers make custom builds and optimizations for steam deck? As far as I know any game just works, but I don't have it so I am not sure.

As far as the viability of this commercially, this would all be a way for Microsoft to stop subsidizing consoles and still get the royalties from games bought on they're store (am I using they're correctly? English is not my first language lol).
It's Microsoft, they got the money to make this successful, but Microsoft is a strange company

(Also, if we get a steam deck like interface for windows that anyone can use I would be very happy)

Not all titles work on Steam Deck and the steam deck doesnt have as strict requirements as consoles; you're still given more settings to get the game to run in the way you want, also you notice Nintendo did the same(surprisingly) for MK 1. The game runs horribly but they let it ship because they make money and you cant expect it to run on the machine, you're getting it in an as is form. This isnt the norm but an exception as it kills the experience that makes such fixed systems valuable.

This would be especially true if they're making their money by creating games and selling them on multiple platforms but with the way things are being proposed at the moment, it would actually boost playstation software and hardware sales as well. People would invest more in the ecosystems where the hw simply works. MS will make more money by selling games not the Xbox ecosystem with the game app store.

I think they'd need a team to support the OEMs as well as coordinate with them to ensure all this works out well. The very nature of it has challenges, I think it would end up like the Surface line up, a very niche product. But MS can make serious money selling games on multiple platforms. For me the oddest thing is them wanting other competing game stores on their system.

that's MS job to add a similar feature in DirectX. Steam Deck has it 'cos of Vulkan. This would greatly benefit Windows.


afaik, they don't, but there are games like Cyberpunk with a setting called Steam Deck.

It's MS job to standardize hardware requirements so a setting like that could be added to any PC game. With their money and expertise they can do it, and again, Windows is one of their most successful business and it'd benefit the OS, and of course the gamers who would still have almost infinite backwards compatibility and freedom to tinker for those with the know-how.

As others have mentioned its not an API feature but challenge due to the nature of different hw configs that require compilation to their specific machine code. Its why Valve created a single handheld with fixed hw called the steam deck. Different GPUs with different architectures gives you this problem. Its the whole reason Xbox was started in the first place i.e challenges in developing software on multiple configs of hw. You can only ameliorate the issue to some extent but fixed systems will always have this advantage. In all this it just seems like MS is going to the 3rd party publisher route.

 

[Cyan]

So how many times in the past has microsoft tried to standardize performance metrics on the pc ? I remember at least one other time when you'd get your pc score in windows

they removed that. I remember a message saying something along the lines of "This game should run fine on your PC". That's metrics, but imho not standardization.

To standardize the hardware they must create a set of guidelines for Xbox hardware manufacturers where they have "certified" hardware -be it from AMD, Intel, nVidia or Qualcomm- with stable drivers so the games run on some quality standards -- with a much needed DX12 shader compilation aside.

If they can provide a quality standard, an optimized OS for gaming, full Xbox consoles compatibility, a store HUB were Epic, GoG, EA, Ubisoft, Sony, or the hardware manufacturers can sell their games and easily create their own approved store, that could lead to more Windows licenses sold and optimised games like on a console where everything is transparent for the user, and also default settings in games like those for the Steam Deck in games like Cyberpunk.

For people who love tinkering they'd have the option, but many people would use the default settings.

 

[iroboto]

Not all titles work on Steam Deck and the steam deck doesnt have as strict requirements as consoles; you're still given more settings to get the game to run in the way you want, also you notice Nintendo did the same(surprisingly) for MK 1. The game runs horribly but they let it ship because they make money and you cant expect it to run on the machine, you're getting it in an as is form. This isnt the norm but an exception as it kills the experience that makes such fixed systems valuable.

This would be especially true if they're making their money by creating games and selling them on multiple platforms but with the way things are being proposed at the moment, it would actually boost playstation software and hardware sales as well. People would invest more in the ecosystems where the hw simply works. MS will make more money by selling games not the Xbox ecosystem with the game app store.

I think they'd need a team to support the OEMs as well as coordinate with them to ensure all this works out well. The very nature of it has challenges, I think it would end up like the Surface line up, a very niche product. But MS can make serious money selling games on multiple platforms. For me the oddest thing is them wanting other competing game stores on their system.


As others have mentioned its not an API feature but challenge due to the nature of different hw configs that require compilation to their specific machine code. Its why Valve created a single handheld with fixed hw called the steam deck. Different GPUs with different architectures gives you this problem. Its the whole reason Xbox was started in the first place i.e challenges in developing software on multiple configs of hw. You can only ameliorate the issue to some extent but fixed systems will always have this advantage. In all this it just seems like MS is going to the 3rd party publisher route.

Ehh this is an ugly way to reply lol.

You can use the quote tool (highlight+right click) to break up messages instead of colour coding. But not a biggie, personal preference I suppose. Carry on

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Ehh this is an ugly way to reply lol.

You can use the quote tool (highlight+right click) to break up messages instead of colour coding. But not a biggie, personal preference I suppose. Carry on

I think it necessary to maintain a posting standard - you don't know what colours a reader is using and text might end up hard to read, plus some users are colour-blind and will struggle to see which reply is to which quote. So yes, breaking up the quote and responding piecemeal is necessary.

Doesn't even need a particular tool. Reply to (or quote) the whole thing, move to the end of the line you want to respond to and press return. It'll new line and end the quote.

Not all titles work on Steam Deck and the steam deck doesnt have as strict requirements as consoles; you're still given more settings to get the game to run in the way you want, also you notice Nintendo did the same(surprisingly) for MK 1. The game runs horribly but they let it ship because they make money and you cant expect it to run on the machine, you're getting it in an as is form. This isnt the norm but an exception as it kills the experience that makes such fixed systems valuable. Press Return here to make this happen...

...and then type your reply. You can use delete and backspace to remove the 'quote break' and fuse quotes back together.

This would be especially true if they're making their money by creating games and selling them on multiple platforms but with the way things are being proposed at the moment, it would actually boost playstation software and hardware sales as well. People would invest more in the ecosystems where the hw simply works. MS will make more money by selling games not the Xbox ecosystem with the game app store.

That piece of quote left in to show where I inserted my response.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

I'm not sure I believe in these radical MS is doing an Xbox/PC hybrid rumors. The same guy was wrong about more than half of what he posted last year.

I don't think you can make a box as good as the Xbox Series X for less than $600 and still have retailers and the manufacturer make money and that's 4 years after launch.

Better to stick to a new box every 4 or 5 years depending on tech and put games on GP/PC Day 1 and PS/Nintendo 2 or 3 years later depending on the title. See what happens. If the hardware dies, go 3rd party, but I have a feeling that 30 or 40 million people are invested enough to keep buying Xbox hardware if it's good enough.

So for the record, I'm against this PCifying Xbox idea. I think MS' problem is commitment. They continually signal to the marketplace that they are all over the place. This is just another panic move IMO, if it's true.

 

[QPlayer]

It's like it's festival time

 

[Cyan]

I'm not sure I believe in these radical MS is doing an Xbox/PC hybrid rumors. The same guy was wrong about more than half of what he posted last year.

I don't think you can make a box as good as the Xbox Series X for less than $600 and still have retailers and the manufacturer make money and that's 4 years after launch.

Better to stick to a new box every 4 or 5 years depending on tech and put games on GP/PC Day 1 and PS/Nintendo 2 or 3 years later depending on the title. See what happens. If the hardware dies, go 3rd party, but I have a feeling that 30 or 40 million people are invested enough to keep buying Xbox hardware if it's good enough.

well, in part for some people it's a pity that they could abandon console hardware, because for the many fans of the competition between consoles it would be a sad day, as a colleague commented, it means that the showing is over, though he understands that times have changed. Most of it is a reflection of the current society.

@rntongo give dark mode a try, it's particularly good in this forum imho

 

[rntongo]

It's like it's festival time

It was a short lived festival!

I think it necessary to maintain a posting standard - you don't know what colours a reader is using and text might end up hard to read, plus some users are colour-blind and will struggle to see which reply is to which quote. So yes, breaking up the quote and responding piecemeal is necessary.

Doesn't even need a particular tool. Reply to (or quote) the whole thing, move to the end of the line you want to respond to and press return. It'll new line and end the quote.


...and then type your reply. You can use delete and backspace to remove the 'quote break' and fuse quotes back together.

That piece of quote left in to show where I inserted my response.

Got it thank you.

 

[QPlayer]

I'm not sure I believe in these radical MS is doing an Xbox/PC hybrid rumors. The same guy was wrong about more than half of what he posted last year.

I don't think you can make a box as good as the Xbox Series X for less than $600 and still have retailers and the manufacturer make money and that's 4 years after launch.

Better to stick to a new box every 4 or 5 years depending on tech and put games on GP/PC Day 1 and PS/Nintendo 2 or 3 years later depending on the title. See what happens. If the hardware dies, go 3rd party, but I have a feeling that 30 or 40 million people are invested enough to keep buying Xbox hardware if it's good enough.

So for the record, I'm against this PCifying Xbox idea. I think MS' problem is commitment. They continually signal to the marketplace that they are all over the place. This is just another panic move IMO, if it's true.

This is just our point of view, that it would be good for us if they kept the traditional console line. Then we'll see. Looking at the other side of the coin, however, many multiplatform games run excessively unoptimized on these consoles. UE5 is both good (first-party games) and not so good (many third-party games). For example, I would like to play UE5 Ark in good quality on Series X, but this is impossible... (although it could be much better on the console!) It requires an expensive PC. Now then what is better? The previous closed console system with moderate graphics skills compared to an expensive PC VGA, or a console that can be expanded or bought in an expensive version equipped with powerful VGA. Sooner or later we'll get to the point where I'd rather buy the more expensive hardware if I can get my favorite games in significantly better quality.

However, the console interface is important, I definitely prefer it.

 

[Nisaaru]

I don't think you can make a box as good as the Xbox Series X for less than $600 and still have retailers and the manufacturer make money and that's 4 years after launch.

I agree.

Better to stick to a new box every 4 or 5 years depending on tech and put games on GP/PC Day 1 and PS/Nintendo 2 or 3 years later depending on the title. See what happens. If the hardware dies, go 3rd party, but I have a feeling that 30 or 40 million people are invested enough to keep buying Xbox hardware if it's good enough.

A few weeks ago I've speculated MS multi platform moves might be related to *their* interpretation of the Apple Store trial which forces Apple to open up their platform. So what might happen here might also happen to Sony+Nintendo but they kept any arguments in-house.

So for the record, I'm against this PCifying Xbox idea. I think MS' problem is commitment. They continually signal to the marketplace that they are all over the place. This is just another panic move IMO, if it's true.

MS's messaging the last 6 months has been horrible and where is smoke there is fire.

I also agree they seem to lack commitment but that might not be the only factor here. They surely have far better customer data than any of us so they might even think for good reasons that "commitment" isn't enough.

Something is obviously different otherwise MS would try to counter these kind of speculations as fast as possible. That they are not doing it means there's substance here.

There has also been speculation back when these first multiplatform game leaks came up that they happened intentionally because some people inside didn't agree with the plans and wanted management to see the negative response. Surely possible.

 

[Caayn]

I also agree they seem to lack commitment but that might not be the only factor here. They surely have far better customer data than us so they might even think for good reasons that "commitment" isn't enough.

It wouldn't be the first time for MS/Xbox to interpret consumer data incorrect. Isn't that basically how the Xbox One came to be with its focus on TV/multimedia. They saw that a lot of users were using their Xbox 360s to watch multimedia content instead of playing games and drew incorrect conclusions from that which led to the Xbox One being what it ended up being.

Incorrect interpretation of consumer data of which they still haven't really recovered from.

 

[Nisaaru]

It wouldn't be the first time for MS/Xbox to interpret consumer data incorrect. Isn't that basically how the Xbox One came to be with its focus on TV/multimedia. They saw that a lot of users were using their Xbox 360s to watch multimedia content instead of playing games and drew incorrect conclusions from that which led to the Xbox One being what it ended up being.

Incorrect interpretation of consumer data of which they still haven't really recovered from.

Back then different departments also wanted a chunk of xbox for their own agendas. From the Windows Media Center/Live TV people seeing a life line and plans about using Kinect for some smart advertising system.

So "incorrect interpretation" might just have been "biased interpretation"

 

[eastmen]

they removed that. I remember a message saying something along the lines of "This game should run fine on your PC". That's metrics, but imho not standardization.

To standardize the hardware they must create a set of guidelines for Xbox hardware manufacturers where they have "certified" hardware -be it from AMD, Intel, nVidia or Qualcomm- with stable drivers so the games run on some quality standards -- with a much needed DX12 shader compilation aside.

If they can provide a quality standard, an optimized OS for gaming, full Xbox consoles compatibility, a store HUB were Epic, GoG, EA, Ubisoft, Sony, or the hardware manufacturers can sell their games and easily create their own approved store, that could lead to more Windows licenses sold and optimised games like on a console where everything is transparent for the user, and also default settings in games like those for the Steam Deck in games like Cyberpunk.

For people who love tinkering they'd have the option, but many people would use the default settings.

actually some games had the required score on the box to play the game.

A windows license costs a lot less than 30% of every game sold. So epic, gog, ea, ubisoft, sony and all others would simply make a 100% of the profit

 

[rntongo]

A few weeks ago I've speculated MS multi platform moves might be related to *their* interpretation of the Apple Store trial which forces Apple to open up their platform. So what might happen here might also happen to Sony+Nintendo but they kept any arguments in-house.

Exactly this!!!. You can see the narrative being pushed against such models. This is what I firmly believe for now as well. The closed model is highly profitable and lends itself well to SDLCs which is why devs gravitate towards it and the only way to defeat it is to simply to outlaw it. Forcing Sony and Nintendo to open up their systems would actually have major ramifications but the hope this happens seems to be whats driving MS Gaming business approach. I dont think Japan will take this lightly at all. As well as other Japanese firms and the outcome could even affect the Epic vs Apple battle. At which point can one company dictate what model is used by another company and the business outcomes of such a decision.

As well, one question in all this is whether Valve would allow the Xbox Game store onto the steam deck. I dont think this will be the case at all. But MS hoping other game stores can be loaded onto their system is an early sign they intend to have their store on other platforms and use legal options to end the Sony/Nintendo model. Otherwise it doesnt make sense how MS can make all their titles available on other game stores while opening up their Xbox hw to other gamestores without killing the whole point of having an Xbox.