Xbox 360 Motion Controller: Too late?

[thatdude90210]

Wonder who's going to launch their version of the Wiimote first, MS or Sony? C'mon, you know Sony have to be working theirs too. One look at the Japan PS3 sales numbers (still on a slower pace than the cube) will tell you that.

 

[dobwal]

sixaxis is standard with al PS3s, but how many devs are really making the most of it, let alone adding any useful measure of motion support to games?

A tagged on motion-control scheme to existing games isn't going to sell XB360s to casuals any more than Halo 3 on Wiimote would sell Wii's to Wii's current market. Now *if* MS could map existing games onto motion control, so you could buy the peripheral and have existing games use it, they might get somewhere, at least in selling a peripheral to existing XB360 owners. But the absence of nunchuck type second control input puts a damper on that idea.

The sixaxis is limited in nature. There practically nothing you could do with that can't be naturally incorporated in the traditional control scheme that the controller was designed for. If motorcycle racing was a big genre, the motion control on the sixaxis would be a godsend as you can't closely mimic turning on a motorcyle with a traditional control scheme as you could with the sixaxis (you lean and steer in opposite directions on a real motorcycle while going around curves).

Another thing is that sixaxis is based on a two handed controller design, which is limiting factor in terms of motion control. The reason Nintendo design the nunchuck style controller was to add flexibility that the standard controller designs lacked. If all MS does is release is a sixaxis style 360 controller it will be as underutilized as the sixaxis is now.

Now if MS released a one handed motion control device, it would prove to be more practical and engaging than a sixaxis like controller in games like baseball, tennis, bowling and golf. Obviously a one handed controller couldn't be a total replacement for the current design but it wouldn't have to be as the traditional control scheme has many advantage when its comes to more traditional games.

The nunchuck allows Nintendo to completely replace its traditional controller but
MS can simply offer its traditional controller with a seperate motion control one handed peripheral that offers similar when it comes to games like Wii Sports. Furthermore, the Wii nunchuck has its disadvantages that would show up more readily if Nintendo had a more traditional library like the 360 or PS3. I would hate to have to use a Wii controller for Tekken/VF. The reason why Wii games are so easy to learn isn't because of motion control its because if you were to map the controls to a traditional controller for alot of Wii games you could get by with the original controller of NES system. The more complicated you control scheme become the more impractical the Wii's motion controller becomes.

Which is a big *if*. Look at how MS have competed with EyeToy... They haven't They've made nothing of the camera peripheral, and aren't showcasing motion controls through that in stores. It doesn't take a Wiimote to compete with Wii - the right hardware (which is out) with the right software (which is missing) would work. Neither company has rolled out real competitors with their existing options, despite plenty of time to knock up a Wii minigames motion-control library.

The difference between mimicking EyeToy versus mimicking the Wii's motion contol is the same difference as mimicking Halo 3 versus mimicking Viva Pinata.

Its my expressed opinion that market perception on Wii's motion control isn't based on a strong library but rather strong marketing by Nintendo. In my area none of the big retail chains have kiosks that allow you to actually play the Wii. For a long time this was also true for the GameStops I regularly visited. Most of kiosks consisted of TVs playing video of people playing the Wii spliced with gameplay footage. This is true for Wii commericals also, where you likely to see more footage of people playing the Wii than the actual games themselves.

I remember my first hands on experience with the Wii at a kiosk which had SuperMario Galaxy and other non-memorable demos and being utterly disappointed because simply flicking ones wrist upward to jump is in no way more fun then simply pressing the jump button on a traditional controller. My 1.5 hour enjoyment with SuperMario Galaxy had nothing to do with the motion control but rather it was a fun game regardless of method of input for controls. There literally only a handful of high profile titles that make full use of motion control. Most of the best selling games consist of franchises that would have sold well on a traditional Nintendo platform, motion control isn't the primary reason of purchase.

I agree that MS and Sony can compete with Nintendo, but it'd need a major, major push. Both have put their eggs in different baskets and any movements in that direction are an afterthought, closing the door after the horses have bolted in the vague hopes a few horses remain.

I don't think MS and Sony can simply release new motion controllers and eliminate all the demand for the Wii and its motion control. But the Wii isn't the Ipod with its almost monopolistic like marketshare and eliminating the uniqueness of the Wii motion control by offering close alternatives can be a step in making sure Wii doesn't end up owning 70% of the console market.

 

[patsu]

Wonder who's going to launch their version of the Wiimote first, MS or Sony? C'mon, you know Sony have to be working theirs too. One look at the Japan PS3 sales numbers (still on a slower pace than the cube) will tell you that.

The "problem" is PSP and PS2 are cushioning the $$$ for Sony. Since PS3 is still selling at a loss and Blu-ray is indeed picking up momentum, the other pieces provide excuses for Sony... to not change.

To be fair to them, Sony has been dreaming up strange/wonderful technologies (Look at Cell, PS Eye, RemotePlay, Playstation Home). I feel that the issue with them is they are too fragmented. It seems that no one is overseeing and polishing the consolidated experience. Kaz seems to be more down stream (marketing after product is done), or backstage (Making big manufacturing decisions). Individual products are left to the middle managers to handle. There is little/no room for proper integration and polishing user experiences. The end result is Sony typically spent a lot of R&D effort, but gets pitifully little mileage for the work.

The most effective way is probably to force their hands via a strong external competitor in the same segment. Wii did not hit them close enough, although there are certainly repercussions and shockwaves felt in Sony HQ.

At the end of this year, let's see Sony face the following:
* Repackaged Xbox 360 (more reliable)
* Supports DVD 2.0 with HDi and better upscaling capability
* Improved XBL (HDi server infrastructure being part of XBL)
* Uses an optional motion sensing remote, with select games and DVD 2.0 playback.
* More integration with the other Windows empire (e.g., even better integration with MMPC).
* More games and more movies.

Something like that. See how they react...
If they don't plan it early enough, they will be slowed further

 

[acaeus]

Way too late! That ship has sailed and Wii is the captain. (<- sorry ) Peripherals don't sell well and companies don't have the budget to focus on fraction of markets. What'd be the incentive to target a smaller number of potential buyers?

Lots of non-Wii-believers here. Wii sells because of word of mouth, nothing else. There are no demos because there is no need. Units just don't remain on the stands for too long anyway. I've seen very little marketing so far, again why spend money in marketing for something that already sells like hotcakes?

Every single person I spoke with told me the controls are great. Not only the motion sensing, but the little details like the speakers on them.
BTW, you don't shake the remote to jump on Galaxy, you do that to spin. Press 'A' to jump. I bought a Wii (already own a PS3 for a while) because I actually played it at my friend. And yes, Galaxy is a fantastic silly game.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Way too late! That ship has sailed and Wii is the captain. (<- sorry ) Peripherals don't sell well and companies don't have the budget to focus on fraction of markets. What'd be the incentive to target a smaller number of potential buyers?

Guitar Hero and Rock Band say hi.

 

[PARANOiA]

The "problem" is PSP and PS2 are cushioning the $$$ for Sony. Since PS3 is still selling at a loss and Blu-ray is indeed picking up momentum, the other pieces provide excuses for Sony... to not change.

They can just release a PS2 Wiimote. It's been rumoured for a while, and the user base crushes that of the Wii and 360 combined. If they fixed the BC problems (ie, make sure all PS3 owners can play PS2Sports of whatever it gets called) they'd be able to double-dip.

It's not like Wii owners are in it for the graphics, after all.

Like I mentioned earlier, I don't see a problem with this per se, as long as the game that accompanies the new piece of hardware makes the purchase worthwhile.

 

[AlphaWolf]

They can just release a PS2 Wiimote. It's been rumoured for a while, and the user base crushes that of the Wii and 360 combined. If they fixed the BC problems (ie, make sure all PS3 owners can play PS2Sports of whatever it gets called) they'd be able to double-dip.

While there are over 100 million ps2's out there, its pretty clear from game sales that there aren't near that many people using them. I know my ps2 has been stuffed in a drawer for more than 2 years.

 

[dobwal]

Way too late! That ship has sailed and Wii is the captain. (<- sorry ) Peripherals don't sell well and companies don't have the budget to focus on fraction of markets. What'd be the incentive to target a smaller number of potential buyers?

Lots of non-Wii-believers here. Wii sells because of word of mouth, nothing else. There are no demos because there is no need. Units just don't remain on the stands for too long anyway. I've seen very little marketing so far, again why spend money in marketing for something that already sells like hotcakes?

Word of mouth, nothing else? Yeah, Im sure people call over town ready to snatch up a product as soon as it hits the sales floor just because somebody simply said the Wii was the way to go. Just because you don't see commericals on television every 5 minutes doesn't mean that console aren't marketed heavily.

The console market has numerous avenues to market their products thats not available to more traditional markets. If you are in the business of selling tylenol, having a sales rep standing at an endcap at Target/Walmart hitting people over the head with rubber mallets and then giving them pills to show how wonderful your painkillers are is not practical. Allstate doesn't have the luxuries of going to tradeshows, setting up big booths, highlighting their new policies cost and features and then have thousands of media outlets relaying that information across the world to potential consumers. Nintendo's, Sony's and MS's marketing budgets aren't small by any measure.

Every single person I spoke with told me the controls are great. Not only the motion sensing, but the little details like the speakers on them. BTW, you don't shake the remote to jump on Galaxy, you do that to spin. Press 'A' to jump. I bought a Wii (already own a PS3 for a while) because I actually played it at my friend. And yes, Galaxy is a fantastic silly game.

I never had a problem with the controls and I must of been mistaken about the flicking and jumping but I will stress that the motion control for the SMG wasn't a fun factor for me. Furthermore, Wii games don't actually require you to do alot. I wouldn't want to play your average 360/PS3 button mashers on the Wii where the control scheme wasn't pared down to make sure i didn't play the game like I was conducting an orchestra playing at light speed.

 

[Readykilowatt]

Wonder who's going to launch their version of the Wiimote first, MS or Sony? C'mon, you know Sony have to be working theirs too. One look at the Japan PS3 sales numbers (still on a slower pace than the cube) will tell you that.

Looking at the sales of Wii-Fit vs the PS3 install base in Japan, Sony would be smarter if they released the Balance-Axis for the PS3. BTW, when is Microsoft going to release the X-Balance-Board? All joking aside, Microsoft has no strategy (partly due to HDDVD blowing up) and is panicking. Sony has a long term strategy and is buying their time. This is why Sony will beat Microsoft in the end.

 

[patsu]

I don't necessarily agree. Even along this school of thought, it would mean that MS will improvise all the winning formulae for its own platform (like assimilating Wiimote and Playstation's exclusive games for XBL at a cheaper entry price). It is still a viable strategy and can cause considerable headaches for Sony.

I admire Sony's ability to deliver. But they are still missing the last mile: They need a smooth, easy to use experience so that anyone can pick up a PS3 and enjoy all its features right away, without fail. Some of the UI elements have me confused and backtracked for a good few minutes. I can't recommend it to many people I know too because they would be hopelessly lost. Or they have no use for some of the esoteric features.

To me, having a Wiimote for PS3 or Xbox 360 is simply an excuse for them to make their offerings more relevant to layman. They both need it, but I believe Sony will be slower because their Blu-ray strategy is panning out. There is a quicker way, but they probably want to stick to their own game. The ideas are not mutually exclusive. Blu-ray and PS Home do not conflict with easy of use. Sony already has all the necessary technologies shipped (SIXAXIS and PS Eye).

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The sixaxis is limited in nature. There practically nothing you could do with that can't be naturally incorporated in the traditional control scheme that the controller was designed for.

The previous discussion on this board says otherwise. There are lots of possibilities for adding intuitive motion responses into games, like augmented character motion (LBP uses more analogue inputs than a dual stick type controller allows), extended controls (Warhawk with motion controls allows independent targeting in addition to flight), and natural controls in something like Mercury Meltdown.

If all MS does is release is a sixaxis style 360 controller it will be as underutilized as the sixaxis is now.

That would be true, but it wouldn't be a fault of the hardware. The only reason developers are incorporating motion controls on Wii is because they have too, and Nintendo showed people like it. It's not the being a one handed device that makes Wiimote accessible.

The difference between mimicking EyeToy versus mimicking the Wii's motion contol is the same difference as mimicking Halo 3 versus mimicking Viva Pinata.

True, but that's missed my point. Before Wii was out, before anyone knew what the 'Revolution' was, EyeToy had made major headway into the 'casual' market and appealing to 'grannies' etc. MS knew about EyeToy years before their XB360 was being released, the decided to offer a camera device, but they did next to nothing to turn that camera device into a casual-game phenomena. Two years after XB360's launch, they're still not providing an alternative to Wii Play, or any original, fun motion based games. Years of opportunity, and all they've provided is a camera for webchat. They made no effort to land those millions of customers. For the same reason I expect an XB360 wand to be a half-baked hackjob, poorly supported. MS will wave a checkbox feature but not actually pursue the market and compete.

Its my expressed opinion that market perception on Wii's motion control isn't based on a strong library but rather strong marketing by Nintendo...This is true for Wii commericals also, where you likely to see more footage of people playing the Wii than the actual games themselves.

I agree that's a strong element (Phil Harrison does too!) but if it was GC being advertised in the same way as Wii, without the motion controls, do you think Wii would be as successful? I don't.

 

[casperlite]

I agree its just awesome gadget I Lov to have one

 

[dobwal]

The previous discussion on this board says otherwise. There are lots of possibilities for adding intuitive motion responses into games, like augmented character motion (LBP uses more analogue inputs than a dual stick type controller allows), extended controls (Warhawk with motion controls allows independent targeting in addition to flight), and natural controls in something like Mercury Meltdown.

I concede that there are aspect of motion control that can augment games even with a two hand design that is impossible with the traditional design. The problem is that the two hand design limits the level of full incorporation of motion control across a broad spectrum of genres. The nunchuck or a one hand design present obvious mechanics that would fundamental change aspect of gameplay of certain genres. Other than driving/flying with a tiny steering wheel what other natural motion use the grip used by the traditional two hand design.

That would be true, but it wouldn't be a fault of the hardware. The only reason developers are incorporating motion controls on Wii is because they have too, and Nintendo showed people like it. It's not the being a one handed device that makes Wiimote accessible.

The nunchuck is very part of what drives the market appeal of the Wii. Most of the marketing around the Wii have center around natural motions that typically involves one hand or a two hand grip with one hand directly over the other. Playing baseball, golf, tennis, sword fighting, bowling and chopping up food using natural motion present a challenge to a traditional two hand design . You can't grip a two hand design like a baseball bat or tennis racket. The two hand design wasn't meant to be manipulated with one hand especially with making heavy use of motion. Nintendo marketing would have been more subdued, less attractive and less effective with a two hand design.

True, but that's missed my point. Before Wii was out, before anyone knew what the 'Revolution' was, EyeToy had made major headway into the 'casual' market and appealing to 'grannies' etc. MS knew about EyeToy years before their XB360 was being released, the decided to offer a camera device, but they did next to nothing to turn that camera device into a casual-game phenomena. Two years after XB360's launch, they're still not providing an alternative to Wii Play, or any original, fun motion based games. Years of opportunity, and all they've provided is a camera for webchat. They made no effort to land those millions of customers. For the same reason I expect an XB360 wand to be a half-baked hackjob, poorly supported. MS will wave a checkbox feature but not actually pursue the market and compete.

Eye Toy relied heavily upon PS2 market domination where the PS2 userbase was so large that even targeting a limited segment of the market was feasible. MS was never privy to as big of a userbase, so mimicking the Eye Toy made little sense. Even now, Sony has done little with the Eye Toy on the PS3 because the current userbase is too small. In all likelihood if Sony had inclination that PS3 userbase would be at its current level during the dev of the PS3, the Eye Toy would have received less attention and resources than it has recieved so far. The Eye Toy was never meant and has never shown to be instrumental to the success of its platform. Otherwise, Eye Toy would of have been a standard peripheral in the PS3.

I agree that's a strong element (Phil Harrison does too!) but if it was GC being advertised in the same way as Wii, without the motion controls, do you think Wii would be as successful? I don't.

Marketing the GC like the Wii would have been futile as the marketing of the Wii centers heavily around natural motion.

 

[thatdude90210]

The thing about Nintendo's marketing of the Wii so far is that, almost every game that they advertised, they showed the players as much as the game. Basically every game that utilizes the Wiimote sells the Wii itself.

The key is interactivity. There is no going back to pushing buttons or moving an analog stick after being able to mimic the motion of the game tasks.

I remember seeing a PS3 tennis game that came out right after the Wii. The six axis controls were kinda dumb. One of the devs demoed it with "so you push the controller forward to toss the ball up..." I pictured the devs, after seeing Wii tennis, going "oh shit, how are we supposed to sell our game now?"

 

[liolio]

There has been rumor about Sony desmonstrating a wiimote/nunchuck controler.
At this point I think that Sony has been clever enought to copy what costumers have accepted.

It's still anticipated (and maybe based on thin air...) but I really hope for MS that they have been crazy enought to develop something that is not a nunchuck/wiimote like controler.