XBox 1 Backwards compatibility

[Dave Baumann]

Vince, that was a clarficiation on the architectures mentioned, thats all.

 

[Megadrive1988]

okay, I have not had time to read this entire thread. just wanted to mention that the cnn money article on Xbox Next PC
(3rd version of Xbox 2) would have or might have Xbox1 bc.

is that something that would be acceptable to you guys, the 3rd and most expensive version of Xbox2, coming in 2006, being the only one that could play Xbox1 games?

 

[Panajev2001a]

You still did not answer to me Vince .

 

[Xenus]

Do you think he would be arguing with Dave about the S/APUs if he didn't.

 

[AzBat]

okay, I have not had time to read this entire thread. just wanted to mention that the cnn money article on Xbox Next PC
(3rd version of Xbox 2) would have or might have Xbox1 bc.

is that something that would be acceptable to you guys, the 3rd and most expensive version of Xbox2, coming in 2006, being the only one that could play Xbox1 games?

I believe it was speculated that the 2nd version(with HD) could have it as well. The purpose of backward compatibility IMHO is to have it with launch. It helps with not having enough games. If BC didn't come till 2006 then I'm not sure that would be favorable. Maybe it would be OK if it was promised for a 2006 launch. However, I can see how Microsoft might like that option especially if they were expecting to continue selling Xbox1 consoles and BC wasn't ready. IMHO either MS does it at launch or not at all.

Tommy McClain

 

[Megadrive1988]

I believe it was speculated that the 2nd version(with HD) could have it as well. The purpose of backward compatibility IMHO is to have it with launch. It helps with not having enough games. If BC didn't come till 2006 then I'm not sure that would be favorable. Maybe it would be OK if it was promised for a 2006 launch. However, I can see how Microsoft might like that option especially if they were expecting to continue selling Xbox1 consoles and BC wasn't ready. IMHO either MS does it at launch or not at all.

Tommy McClain

good points. I tend to agree.

 

[wco81]

The rumored 3 configuration of Xenon wouldn't be good for overall marketshare. If the performance differs among the 3, then you end up with games being targeted for the LCD, which would make the people who bought the highest-end model unhappy. And the early adopters who bought the low configuration wouldn't be happy to see what they bought eclipsed so quickly.

Worst-case scenario is that whatever extra capabilities of the higher configurations aren't supported by 3rd parties any more than the PS2 HDD.

 

[psurge]

Could the different versions be targeted at different HDTV resolutions? I mean that each game would run on any of the versions, but if you want the very high res HDTV formats, then you need the more powerful version. I mean if you have 10k to spend on an 1980x1080p (or whatever it is) HDTV, a $500+ X2 "turbo" is not really that big a deal.

If you went with that kind of model, then you could release the initial version
that can handle TV and HDTV (720p max), then later you scale up the #of
shading units on the GPU to handle the crazier TVs. The higher performance model becomes feasible after a process shrink, and this also gives you some time for HDTVs that support really high res to penetrate the market.

Just an idea,
Serge

 

[AzBat]

From my reading on the 3 SKUs of the Xbox2 is that the games functionality of all 3 would be identical. Therefore there wouldn't be a LCD problem. Unfortunately that means all games will be designed for one standard resolution. However, I believe the prospect for 720p being the standard resolution is pretty high. With that said, a higher percentage of 1080i games is looking pretty good.

IMHO, I wouldn't want 3 different SKUs with varying game performance. Developers won't take advantage of it. This is a game console after all. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if MS did release 2 different Xbox2. I have a feeling that although the base Xbox2 will not have a hard drive it will come with enough built-in flash memory that it will provide BC support. Whether or not MS can pull off BC support is another story. I guess we will find out eventually.

Tommy McClain

 

[loekf2]

From my reading on the 3 SKUs of the Xbox2 is that the games functionality of all 3 would be identical. Therefore there wouldn't be a LCD problem. Unfortunately that means all games will be designed for one standard resolution. However, I believe the prospect for 720p being the standard resolution is pretty high. With that said, a higher percentage of 1080i games is looking pretty good.

IMHO, I wouldn't want 3 different SKUs with varying game performance. Developers won't take advantage of it. This is a game console after all. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if MS did release 2 different Xbox2. I have a feeling that although the base Xbox2 will not have a hard drive it will come with enough built-in flash memory that it will provide BC support. Whether or not MS can pull off BC support is another story. I guess we will find out eventually.

Tommy McClain

Wait.. wait.. I've also read the rumours that Microsoft will release 3 versions of the Xenon, one even vaguely looking like a normal PC. I have serious doubts whether Microsoft can pull this off. A non-X86 system running something like Windows XP.. exposed to a X86-based world ?

Unless they can emulate a fast AMD32/64 (on purpose) class CPU in this 4 CPU core so many GHz thing.

Nontheless, a 733 MHz PIII ... maybe it's possible after all.

 

[Fox5]

and I've never seen a mass market drive or adapter to play the original games of 1 system on another.

besides the SMS->GG (doesn't really count imho because they were effectivly the same hardware) and SMS->gen adapters already mentioned...

nintendo has released the super gameboy (gb->snes) and gameboy player (gb/gbc/gba->gc)

bleemcast was planned and sort of released (in single game packs) for dc (psx->dc)

3do had a hardware card that allowed you to play 3do games on a pc

apple used to sell pc cards (effectivly a pc on a card to run pc apps on a mac)

there was a few psx emulators comercialy available for pc and mac (bleem!, CVGS)

datel released a product known as the "advance game port" for the gc that plugged into the memory card slot on the GC and played gba games (no gb/gbc compatability)

speaking of datel, and in the "how can this be legal" slot, the action replay max for playstaion 2 offers a slew of features including a "retro game emulator". apparently (a friend has one) you can play genesis games on it pretty well, and i've heard rumors that it supports snes also.
http://www.datel.co.uk/products.asp

action replays sell pretty well, too.

Ok, you win, I seriously forgot about most of those, and I've seen and read up on all of them, and even own bleem, bleemcast, and the gameboy player. They don't seem as hackish as the master drive convertors though which looked more like something piraters would use to play backups of games.

 

[see colon]

the master drive converters for the game gear were basicly just "pin conversions". the hardware for the master system and gamegear is essentialy the same, but the cart size was smaller on the gg. i have a 3rd party sms->gg converter, and it does look pretty ghetto. it gets some pretty funny looks if you play it in public, too. huge-ass carts sticking up perpandicular from the gg, it's pretty goofy looking.

 

[Pete]

With NVIDIA's only experience in console hardware being the horrendously overpriced and underperforming xbox GPU, you can be certain that Sony has NVIDIA on a tight leash design-wise.

Didn't nV do the Saturn video and audio, as well? Or am I misremembering the Diamond Edge 3D and its Virtua Fightery goodness?

This is re: nV's "only experience in console hardware," not "overpriced and underperforming."

 

[one]

Didn't nV do the Saturn video and audio, as well?

Apparently no.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/printthread.php?t=29935

no no no, Nvidia never made any chips for the Saturn at all. nor where they going to. the Sega-Nvidia partnership was for a chip for a successor to the Saturn. whatever that sucessor was, it went unmentioned, and is also not the Dreamcast.

the Saturn was in development in 1991-1992, before Nvidia even existed. Saturn uses Hitachi CPUs and SEGA-designed 2D sprite & background graphics processors (VDP1 and VDP2) which are derived from Sega's System32 arcade board of 1991. plus Saturn has a bunch of other processors, from Sega, Yamahi.

there is no Nvidia technology in Saturn whatsoever. Nvidia was a new startup company by the time the Saturn was finished (1994).

Nvidia's first chip, the NV1 of 1995, was used in the Diamond Edge 3D card. Sega and Nvidia had another agreement where Sega Saturn games were ported over to the NV1 chip / Diamond Edge 3D card, and Sega Saturn controllers could be plugged into the card--the Diamond Edge 3D card was a multi media card with 3D, 2D, Audio, etc.

the NV2 chip that Nvidia was working on for Sega used quads, like the NV1, but Sega didn't want quads. Nvidia refused to make a chip that pushed triangles. Sega backed away from Nvidia without any drama at all (unlike the well known Sega-3Dfx dispute)

the NV2 chip was scrapped, although it very well might have been used in the Sega PICO. but there's no evidence of that, though (NV2 in PICO comes from the FiringSquad.com article)

After Sega parted ways with Nvidia sometime in 1995, Sega went on to talks with Lockheed Martin over using Real3D in a console. nothing came of those talks. then Sega went to PowerVR and 3Dfx, ultimately selecting the PowerVR2 based Dural in 1997 which was then named Katana, and then finally, Dreamcast 1998.

 

[pahcman]

Yes another silly "peeeceee" jab by tuttle. Okay if he try to say Sony PS harware are designed to scale with good in house fabbing, but to wipe away Nvidia strenghs, relegating them to bitplayer....

Sony has only 2 entry while Nvidia have helped with 1. Nvidia have sold countless generations of graphics cards. Sure, Xbox is a quick bolted 18 months job yet enough to humble the "experienced".

A translated Watch news, which say Sony was so impressed with Nvidia Xbox "peeeceee" graphics, that they now while working on internal PS3 GPU, open for possible "peeeceee" solution, which we know which route they eventually went. Sony fans here have breath a sigh of relief and excited with Nvidia audio and video solution.

Xbox which loads XGPU and XMCP of NVIDIA appearing 2001 November. When of the lead time is thought, SCEI and NVIDIA are thought that already it had started negotiation when Xbox comes out from. As for this, you can think the possibility Xbox producing effect on SCEI.

Actually, as for the GPU industry authorized personnel who is 2002 beginning of the year spring "as for SCEI it was the schedule which originally develops the graphics of PS3 in inside. But, you have heard that Xbox appearing with that much graphic power gave impact to SCEI. Therefore, as for the graphic tip/chip of the next generation machine, you say that at the respective company not only development, it considers also the choices which use the tip/chip of the GPU vendor of PC type.

Thus, Nvidia technologies must be so horrible that Sony decides to pen contracts, pay out royalties and link their future PS line with Nvidia, all for some lowly leashed road sweeper picking up the leftovers!


Also Watch thinks Nvidia will provide audio video and network for PS3 like MCPX.

"Media processor business is very important even in home appliance field. We, with the SONY computer entertainment and the other two partners, make PlayStation of the next generation ", (Huang)

Huang, GPU and MCP (Media & Communications Processor) and (Wireless) classifying product category of the same company, into 3 of Media Processor. The cooperation with SCEI was explained other than GoForce as 3rd Media Processor. As for GPU specialization, as for MCP specializing in the media & communication & security, it is combined with GPU in graphics. Vis-a-vis that Media Processor, when you look at the example of GoForce, takes charge of the media processing of all round with the programmable hardware not only graphics. In addition, the Hisashi of SCEI 夛 is good from the time before the wooden person the companion tip/chip which is combined with the Cell processor which is CPU of PS3 was not the graphic engine and it called the "media engine". From these speeches, the tip/chip of NVIDIA is presumed that it is the GPU + MCP, media processor. In other words, it is seen that it mounts also the processing function of non graphics such as audio and network.

Remember deadmeat media processor topic?

 

[one]

Sony fans here have breath a sigh of relief and excited with Nvidia audio and video solution.

Also Watch thinks Nvidia will provide audio video and network for PS3 like MCPX.

That page only says that the end product which nVIDIA co-develops will be a media processor type product such as GoForce, not a separated GPU/IGP nor a separated MCP. In other words, it's not clear if nVIDIA will provide "audio video and network" for PS3. IMO it's natural that nVIDIA offered only 3D-related IP for the media processorm, for they mentioned specifically "GeForce technology".

Remember deadmeat media processor topic?

Well, have you read the answer by Panajev2001a to the topic starter? Also, it looks like this Deadmeat thought "various media processors" as things that compete against Cell in the Sony inner politics. But the reality is, Cell and those "various media processors" are synergistic in Sony products.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Who is that "Wooden person" that often appears in these texts about Sony and PS? Is Kutaragi just a "puppet" and this "wooden person" is really the brains behind all PS... or is Kutaragi this "wooden person" like a puppet is a "wooden person"???

And that DM's thread... what has it got to do with this thread?
I really couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread, but what he seems to argue there is that Cell wouldn't be in PS3 in any form (although in some of his postings he agrees that "Cell" will be there, but with separate "Media processor", like it will be, and which was already agreed by the so called "Sony fans" in that thread :? )

And... it's not the wisest idea to bring another flame-infested thread to a topic that is in itself ruined already, unless you just need some backing up by your (believed to be pased, but apparently resurrected) idol

 

[pahcman]

Thats what Watch thinks not me. So far i not bothering to figure out all possible combinations, all i know is, Sony chose Nvidia.

The other topic link is not about deadmeat saying Cell will compete with Media Processors, but with where Watch sees with Sony PR Nvidia PR and Media Processors(IIRC mp is a buzz word invented by Nvidia too).

 

[rabidrabbit]

Did they already get the "Chap to English" translating option ready in Babelfish :?
Edit: A horrible possibility just occured in my mind! Could chap and Deadmeat be using the same account for posting, as at times pachmans postings are understanable english, and at times they are gibberish

 

[one]

Thats what Watch thinks not me. So far i not bothering to figure out all possible combinations, all i know is, Sony chose Nvidia.

The other topic link is not about deadmeat saying Cell will compete with Media Processors, but with where Watch sees with Sony PR Nvidia PR and Media Processors(IIRC mp is a buzz word invented by Nvidia too).

Okay, okay
When I joined this board Deadmeat was already banned IIRC as I saw the sticky topic about him, but I assume it was funny to read his comments realtime
Select quotes from the thread:

You expect CELL to substitute A/D and D/A converters too ?

They already said that they would still use dedicated Silicon in CELL based systems for things that were not worth doing in Software on CELL ( example would be Texture Filtering and Sampling ).

Do not increase the scope of CELL beyond its intended one.

Something needs to have a CRTC inside the PS3 to output to Monitor.. Something Broadband Engine will not have.

These "media processors" are probably GPU's..