Will Warner support Blu-ray?

[Inane_Dork]

Should Microsoft dictate what movie studios do with their own property?

Microsoft (actually Bill Gates) is clearly speaking on behalf of consumers. Whether you think they are accurately representing consumers or not is another issue.


This is the way I picture it: movie studios, if they could make and sell any format equally well, would produce a format so heavily loaded with DRM that half the buyers could not play it before the disc self-destructed. Consumers, if they could make any format that Hollywood would use, would produce a format where anything and everything can be skipped, selected, ripped and so on.

The actual formats are between those two extremes somewhere. If they skew towards movie studios too much, consumers will balk and the format falls. If they skew towards consumers too much, the universe will end and pigs will fly (oh, and movie studios will not support the format right before the flying pigs part).


On a different but related note, I finally found some comment on why MS is so interested in this topic. Here is a blog entry of an MS employee. It's not that convincing, but at least it attempts to address the topic.

 

[PC-Engine]

It was the inferior product from the technical standpoint, and a protracted format war would have been far, FAR worse for the consumer than any of this manage copy bs anyway.

It was. The irony now is that HD DVD has become the techically superior format. It's got iHD vs BD-J, 30GB vs 25GB movies, 30GB/8.5 GB hybrids, MMC, 45GB TL HD DVDs, DS 64GB HD DVD, etc.

I guess back when BR was clearly superior that was the argument of the day. Unfortunately for BR supporters it has become a moot issue now.

As to the cost comparisons, have you even been reading about the cost and difficulty of making DL BRDs? Can you show me how a DL BRD will be cheaper than a DL HD DVD? According to current data a 25GB SL BD is more expensive than a 30GB DL HD DVD. In other words, a DL BRD is going to be a lot more expensive to make. In fact it'll likely be more expensive than TL HD DVDs.

Finally the argument about DVDs having CP is pure BUNK. Of course back in the day they could do that kind of stuff because there was no other format that allowed copying so consumers are forced to accept it if they wanted better movies and convenience. Fortunately those days are going to slowly disappear thanks to HD DVD and MMC. It's different now folks with TWO competing formats where the consumer can freely choose.

I don't know about you people, but I'm looking forward to this format war because it'll bring down the prices of movies and players/recorders very quickly.

Of course there will be dual format drives too so people will even have a 3rd choice.

 

[rabidrabbit]

uh.. I've never really got into this "making a copy of your movie disc for your every room" thinking.
Who really does so, in real life?
In real life, in real families, how often is there a situation that the same film would be watched in different rooms at the same time.

Isn't it easy enough to go get that film from the main living room, and put that into the player in your bedroom.

I actually think dealing with one copy of a film in one household is more convenient than having to copy the disc, label it (maybe even printing nice color copy of the cover) and set up a shelf or other storage place for the copies, where they're nicely available, in each and every room you are going to view them.

Streaming the movies? That would be more convenient than making individual copies, but would it be possible to stream the movie to different displays at the same time, or what if you started the movie in one room and someone wants to start watching the same film in another room a bit later while you're still watching?
Of course it would be kinda cool to have all your movies centrally in one server, at least for techheads, still I don't see that feature as something many people would bother with considering the extra cost and the extra effort in putting the films in there first.
Most homes after all have their movie collection close to their TV´s and DVD players, so the effort of getting the disc from the shelf and putting it into the player maybe isn't too much for that many peple.

One case where a copy of a film might be good is if you're giving it to your kids to view in the kidsroom whenever they want, so that your original disc is protected from damage.
But even then it might be a better idea to teach your kids how to treat the discs properly, or not let them watch them alone.

...or if you live in a huge mansion..... or if your family members don't talk to each others, or want to be in the same room at the same time (in which case you propably wouldn't care if they'd buy their own movies those cheap bastards)

 

[rabidrabbit]

It was. The irony now is that HD DVD has become the techically superior format. It's got iHD vs BD-J, 30GB vs 25GB movies, 30GB/8.5 GB hybrids, MMC, 45GB TL HD DVDs, DS 64GB HD DVD, etc.

No it hasn't got them, no hd-dvd movies, be they 15, 25 or 30GB or any hybrid discs are anywhere to be found, they're imaginary movie discs!

It can't be said HD DVD "has become the technically superior format" if there's nothing but what someone's said or written, any more than Blu ray "has become technically superior format" because it's said to have 250GB storage.

Of course there will be dual format drives too so people will even have a 3rd choice.

Will there? If the other format fails to gain markethare that is large enough, will manufacturers bother? Pretty sure there will be one or two (or three) manufacturers that support them in their players before Blu ray or HD-DVD has "won the format war", but those are likely to be more expensive at least in the beginning and thus pretty insignificant for either format's success.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Will there? If the other format fails to gain markethare that is large enough, will manufacturers bother? Pretty sure there will be one or two (or three) manufacturers that support them in their players before Blu ray or HD-DVD has "won the format war", but those are likely to be more expensive at least in the beginning and thus pretty insignificant for either format's success.

There are already a couple optical formats out there that could move up (in a few years time) to be competitors with BR and/or HDDVD.

 

[DemoCoder]

It was. It's got iHD vs BD-J .

You just shot down your credibility right there. BD-J is a full fledged complete programming layer. iHD is not. The claims by iHD proponents that BR won't allow overlay commentary video is FUD.

The other thing that strains your credibility is comparing dual-layer HD-DVDs to single layer BR. You just regurgitated in one post, all of the FUD that Microsoft and other proponents are spreading. It's nice that they are trying to shoehorn everything they can into HD-DVD at the last minute because it was so inferior to BR, but talking about experimental in-the-lab 30Gb recordable HD-DVD vs proven 25Gb recordable BR players is apples to oranges.

I can't see much point in managed copies except loaning them to a friend. But in your own house? Limited usefulness except as backup.

I'd frankly prefer a format without DRM than one with. DRM technology can be abused. It can be used to permit copies, it can also be used to implement DiVX-style pay-as-you-go or discs with a limited number of times you can watch it.

 

[rabidrabbit]

There are already a couple optical formats out there that could move up (in a few years time) to be competitors with BR and/or HDDVD.

Like what? The holographic disc?
Sure, there will be new techs that offer even more storage space, are faster and more durable... but will there be a need for a new format to replace Blu ray or HD DVD in a few years time.

Will consumers need more than 250GB of space on their optical discs?
Will content providers need more than 250GB of space on their optical discs?
Will there be for example display devices that would be able to take advantage of the improved resolution, colour and bitrates that extra storage space undoubtly would make possible to store?

For data storage, to replace large hard discs maybe, but for commercial content.. I don't thing there will be need for a new format after BR or HDDVD.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Like what? The holographic disc?
Sure, there will be new techs that offer even more storage space, are faster and more durable... but will there be a need for a new format to replace Blu ray or HD DVD in a few years time.

Will consumers need more than 250GB of space on their optical discs?
Will content providers need more than 250GB of space on their optical discs?
Will there be for example display devices that would be able to take advantage of the improved resolution, colour and bitrates that extra storage space undoubtly would make possible to store?

For data storage, to replace large hard discs maybe, but for commercial content.. I don't thing there will be need for a new format after BR or HDDVD.

Doesn't necessarily have to do with need but the capacity of BR is already inadequate for me to back up my harddrive and it isn't even available yet. Regardless of need the technology will advance, blu-ray and/or HDDVD will be supplanted.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Yes, the technology will advance, and by the time your 1TB optical storage arrives, you'll already have a 2TB hard disc.
What will you do then? Wait for the magical 3TB optical storage?

 

[rabidrabbit]

Hp

]Ars Technica
HP has determined that Managed Copy and iHD will address the fundamental technical needs of the PC and help create a seamless experience throughout the digitally connected home:

Managed Copy: Unlike with today's conventional DVDs, this feature allows consumers to make legitimate copies of their HD movies and enjoy this content around the home or across their networks. Making this feature mandatory will ensure a consistent consumer experience across all next-generation DVD content.

iHD: Next-generation HD movies will provide a level of interactive experience well beyond that of today's conventional DVDs. iHD technology provides a broad foundation to enable new interactivity with standards-based development tools and technologies. It will provide consumers with enhanced content, navigation and functionality for HD films. Furthermore, Microsoft plans to implement iHD support in its Windows(R) Vista operating system, which will help ease implementation and provide a cost-effective solution for consumers.

...HP being a strong backer of Blu ray, this did come as a bit of surprise.

Jordi Ribas, director of technical strategy for the Windows Digital Media Division, told me that while the feature is mandatory, the studios will have the option of charging for it.

Well, that pretty much makes the "mandatory" part moot for the consumer point of view.
If you'd have to charge some dollars for the right to copy, and with the added cost of the possible blank disc (if not copied just to hdd), would you bother... really?

 

[AlphaWolf]

Yes, the technology will advance, and by the time your 1TB optical storage arrives, you'll already have a 2TB hard disc.
What will you do then? Wait for the magical 3TB optical storage?

Perhaps. I'd personally rather we were talking about holographic technology coming to market in the consumer space in the near future rather than blu-ray and hddvd. I don't think either is forward looking enough.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Perhaps. I'd personally rather we were talking about holographic technology coming to market in the consumer space in the near future rather than blu-ray and hddvd. I don't think either is forward looking enough.

Oh, okay, happy waiting

The first holographic discs are likely to be less than 1 Terabyte. The Optware Corp's tech makes a Terabyte disc possible when using current size discs, but I wouldn't be surprised if the 1TB figure is for now just a "lab case".
By the time the 1 Terabyte discs and recorders would be available for any reasonable price, I think the hard discs will have surpassed that storage limit already, again making it impossible to backup that >1TB hdd to one disc..

And what if the hard discs switch to some holographic tech too?

 

[AlphaWolf]

Oh, okay, happy waiting

The first holographic discs are likely to be less than 1 Terabyte. The Optware Corp's tech makes a Terabyte disc possible when using current size discs, but I wouldn't be surprised if the 1TB figure is for now just a "lab case".
By the time the 1 Terabyte discs and recorders would be available for any reasonable price, I think the hard discs will have surpassed that storage limit already, again making it impossible to backup that >1TB hdd to one disc..

And what if the hard discs switch to some holographic tech too?

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20050608/105586/?ST=english

a 30gb device the size of a memory card

Consumer products in the near future.

InPhase's Tapestry HDS-200R drive, the first-generation recordable holographic drive, will reach the market in 2006 and has 200 gigabytes of capacity with a 20 megabyte per second transfer rate.

 

[rabidrabbit]

uh.. so, now you only have a 30GB hard drive then. Why don't you just back-up to a couple of dual layer dvd's then.

Or is it 200GB?

anyway, it was about formats that would be there to compete directly eith HD DVD and BR in coming years, in the same market, which these $1 (yea right! If ever that would happen!!) 30GB holographic cards and 200GB holographic discs

http://www.inphase-technologies.com/products/index.html
These medias are aimed for professional and "regulatory compliance/data archive" uses, thus they will be expensive and beyoun reach of average consumer.
Already for some 10-20 years, there has optical formats offering capacity way beyond CD's, but they are only used for backups and storage in professional area, and are way too expensive for average consumer.

 

[aaronspink]

uh.. I've never really got into this "making a copy of your movie disc for your every room" thinking.
Who really does so, in real life?
In real life, in real families, how often is there a situation that the same film would be watched in different rooms at the same time.

Thats really not the main aspect of it. The main aspect of it is to do something like DemoCoder does and have your library at your finger tips, or what I do for travel where I'll rip 4-5 movies to my laptop. The media is simply distrobution and is not the content.

Having a good 8-10 hours of movies on the laptop makes transcons and international travel much easier. These are the things that managed copy is designed for.

One case where a copy of a film might be good is if you're giving it to your kids to view in the kidsroom whenever they want, so that your original disc is protected from damage.
But even then it might be a better idea to teach your kids how to treat the discs properly, or not let them watch them alone.

Um, we're talking about kids here. Even well behaved kids have a tendancy to break fragile things like discs.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Thats really not the main aspect of it. The main aspect of it is to do something like DemoCoder does and have your library at your finger tips, or what I do for travel where I'll rip 4-5 movies to my laptop. The media is simply distrobution and is not the content.

I already covered why I don't think it's that much different whether you have them "at your fingertips" or at arms length.

Having a good 8-10 hours of movies on the laptop makes transcons and international travel much easier. These are the things that managed copy is designed for.

This affects a relative minority of people, most travel maybe once a year, and even then some couple of hours flights.
And I think your laptops battery life would be the bottleneck there quite soon anyway (or is there electricity plugs in business class, must be, I've never been there), still... only a minority of consumers... etc...

Anyway, if you copied those 5 30GB HD-DVD's to your laptop... you'd need two laptops to store them

Um, we're talking about kids here. Even well behaved kids have a tendancy to break fragile things like discs.

Yes, but they're hardly maniacs who use the discs as frisbees. The discs aren't that fragile that they'd break if dropped. If they break fragile things I'd be more worried about the more expensive HD-DVD or Blu ray player than the disc!

 

[PC-Engine]

You just shot down your credibility right there. BD-J is a full fledged complete programming layer. iHD is not. The claims by iHD proponents that BR won't allow overlay commentary video is FUD.

You don't use pliers to change a light bulb.

The other thing that strains your credibility is comparing dual-layer HD-DVDs to single layer BR.

Why is that? The BR supporters didn't have a problem boasting the fact BR allowed 50GB DL BD back when they thought BR movies would be taking advantage of it for movies. Fast forward to the present and it's apparent only SL 25GB BR movies will be released which is 5GBs short of 30GB DL HD DVDs coming out in Japan in Dec. So the supposedly superior format has suddenly turned into the inferior format. Even as a recording format it hasn't even caught on and the discs are still $50.

It's nice that they are trying to shoehorn everything they can into HD-DVD at the last minute because it was so inferior to BR, but talking about experimental in-the-lab 30Gb recordable HD-DVD vs proven 25Gb recordable BR players is apples to oranges.

You think DL 30GB HD DVD-RW will still be experimental next year when HD DVD burners and recorders hit the market even though they're already in the specs and using proven DVD-RW manufacturing technology? You are aware that 30GB, 45GB, and 64GB discs are already in the HD DVD specs right? Specs for HD DVD don't get approved without being realized soon after. Just like DVD you will see SL SS, SL DS, DL SS, DL DS HD DVDs next year...it's inevitable. Not only that but you will also see real hybrid HD DVDs. We're talking massproduction here not some weak experimental pilot lines. Why do you think BR is starting out with SL BRDs? Wasn't BD supposed to be using MPEG2 in conjunction with it's 50GBs of storage to get superior results? What happend??? Who's going to be buying these $50 50GB BRDs???

 

[DemoCoder]

You don't use pliers to change a light bulb.

And you don't make DVD menus with HTML/XML + JavaScript, which is what iHD does. iHD is technically inferior to BD-J which is based on a mature spec, DVBGEM, which is turn is based on JavaTV, and CDC/PBP profie which is already successfully used in tens of millions of mobile phones.

The actual complexity of BD-J is not much higher than the JavaScript engine in iHD, but BD-J delivers alot better security ontop of a mature platform. Moreover, if you don't like iHD, you can use HDMV which is still better than iHD.

 

[PC-Engine]

And you don't make DVD menus with HTML/XML + JavaScript, which is what iHD does. iHD is technically inferior to BD-J which is based on a mature spec, DVBGEM, which is turn is based on JavaTV, and CDC/PBP profie which is already successfully used in tens of millions of mobile phones.

The actual complexity of BD-J is not much higher than the JavaScript engine in iHD, but BD-J delivers alot better security ontop of a mature platform. Moreover, if you don't like iHD, you can use HDMV which is still better than iHD.

If BD-J is so great for HD movie discs then how come all but one studio was in favor of iHD and the remaining studio not really caring? BD-J is simply not needed since iHD can get the job done with less effort. I don't even know why you're bringing up Java in mobile phones unless you think what's being demonstrated on cellphones are something to write home about.

 

[DemoCoder]

If BD-J is so great for HD movie discs then how come all but one studio was in favor of iHD and the remaining studio not really caring? BD-J is simply not needed since iHD can get the job done with less effort. I don't even know why you're bringing up Java in mobile phones unless you think what's being demonstrated on cellphones are something to write home about.

And if HD-DVD is so great, how come more studios are behind BR now? Simply put, BD-J enables more use cases than iHD, especially for network connected players, like download of new studio trailers to be displayed before the movie and updated subtitle download.

The point about mobile phones, is that the complexity of the VM is not an issue. It's already proven to work in an embedded environment. Performance on phones has more to do with battery life and memory (typically, 100K heap) than raw performance of the CDC VM, which in version 2, features the same dynamic reoptimization as HotSpot. Moreover, your "pliers/lightblub" analogy is false, because iHD includes JavaScript, it's own form of plier, and no doubt, some versions of this will be based on .NET CLR (MS's iHD HD-DVD software playback) iHD falls down because of limited API support for JavaScript to access the low level disc features.

You claimed iHD is technically superior to BD-J. It is not, therefore you're wrong. Now you want to change your argument and claim that the features of BD-J are not needed. Well, that's a different argument. It's like saying that 25Gb isn't need, and all you need is 15Gb. Unfortunately, it wasn't your original argument, where you tried to pony off a list of supposed "superior" features in HD-DVD.