I don't think so. At 720p you need front and back buffers, at ~ 5.5 MBs total. For SD rendering you'd need an HD render target and two SD buffers for front and back, at a total of ~ 4.5 MB
Will next gen consoles focus on improving IQ at current HD resolutions?
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I was thinking about scaling being done on the CPU but depending on what can read from where that could be a bad idea. So GPU scaling shouldn't cause a memory issue, but perhaps it could cause more frame rate dips? I don't know how much extra time it would take to do a scale on the GPU, but it doesn't seem like it should be a lot (texture fetch bound?).
Downscaled HD console stuff does look surprisingly good as long as you're using RGB and a decent set (widescreen to make sure no game needs to letterbox, which would make downscaling extreme and some text unreadable) and you can have good old time even on an old telly. Wii / Xbox 1 were nowhere near the limit of what you could do on SD.
I'm happy to see games target rock bottom resolutions and high IQ or high resolutions and lower detail just as long as a developer is trying to achieve something specific with their choice.
Downscaled HD console stuff does look surprisingly good as long as you're using RGB and a decent set (widescreen to make sure no game needs to letterbox, which would make downscaling extreme and some text unreadable) and you can have good old time even on an old telly. Wii / Xbox 1 were nowhere near the limit of what you could do on SD.
I'm happy to see games target rock bottom resolutions and high IQ or high resolutions and lower detail just as long as a developer is trying to achieve something specific with their choice.
Effort will be next to nothing. Someone more edjumicated than me could crunch the numbers in terms of ops and cycles, but a rather rough approach by way of description would be to render the game as a 1280x720 texture, put that onto a quad, and render that at SD res. As I'm sure you appreciate, rendering a single textured quad takes no time at all - that's the degree of impact downscaling to SD should have AFAICS.
Count me in this boat as well.
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Having said that, I expect there will still be games nextgen which release at 720p and go for maximum IQ, even if there is a Tahiti class GPU on board and enough bandwidth to get to 1080p.
As we saw this gen, there are devs that value IQ over resolution and/or framerate. I expect this to continue ... and with a Tahiti Class GPU, the results will be astounding!
BTW - speaking of 720p ... I expect that to be a baseline standard mandated by Sony and MS!
No seriously ... MS wanted that as standard this gen, so with nextgen I fully expect that to be in place, and Sony will not want to be left holding the bag on under 720p games on the shelf so they will join in as well. Also expect at that resolution some form of AA will be mandated as well.Should be no big deal in either case as the machines should be an order of magnitude more powerful than the existing boxes, but there it is.
Honestly that's borderline ridiculous...
If next gen Xbox comes with an improved Kinect I'll buy one. If a next gen system has a controller / slate hybrid controller that gets used for something interesting, I'll buy one. If a next gen system has an exclusive game I really want, I'll buy one.
There are so many better reasons to buy a console than just raw power.
There are so many better reasons to buy a console than just raw power.
What's ridiculous about wanting a justifiable upgrade? I know you and some others want some quirky low power portable/tablet console hybrid, I do not. I want the most power they can squeeze into a box that they can reasonably sell for $500. Hopefully even a loss leader. Extra features are fine as long as they aren't drawing too much away from that core. Hardware that's going to look dated in a couple of years, or winds up co-released on portables in a few years? No thanks, I'll pass.
Yeah, I am one of those consumers who jumped off the Ninny bandwagon with the Wii for this very reason. For me a new console = experiences I cannot have on my current platform. If we see a ton of 100W boxes then ho hum, back to PC land and I will enjoy my 360 library. I think $500 is far above the console markets tolerance, but $399 is not.
And I agree on the resolution: Mandatory resolutions is essentially telling developers they are not the best person to decide what is best for their product. Consumers or Marketing Leads start determining the best technical decisions for software, well, that is scary.
You're not alone.
In fact, I'll be curious to see a poll on the subject....Ah here we go:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=61254
Do you guys think maybe they are just reaching a point where we've taken graphics as far as we can? We can make invidual elements look great but we cant shake the "video game" feeling of the whole thing.
Like some other user noted, watching a VHS video still looks more realistic than a modern video game. Sure, the resolution is low, but the textures, lighting, shadow, geometry is all infinity more complex because it's real life. Versus video games which are at HD resolutions, but still composed of mostly flat surfaces and a lot of "tricks" to give things more depth. I cant really pick up that blanket on that couch in that room and set it over on that table and have it drape off and all the lighting and shadowing changes that involes. GTA 4 was still a bunch of empty fake cardboard buildings, a facade of a city and nothing more. Textures are artist creations which can never have the organic complexity and subtelty of randomness of real life. The end result still looks a lot more fake than that old VHS of your '87 family christmas... there just isn't the complexity there and something tells me it won't really be there next generation either.... I feel like it's still going to be invisible barriers... "dont look behind that building because the textures drop off", this... that... etc.. etc..
I dont know... something tells me this is a budget thing. Its too expensive too make all that complexity.. video games need to be pumped out in a year or two, on a reasonable budget, hence probably the next gen trend towards "lower power usage, increased internet functionality...... and a minor visual upgrade lol...."
Like some other user noted, watching a VHS video still looks more realistic than a modern video game. Sure, the resolution is low, but the textures, lighting, shadow, geometry is all infinity more complex because it's real life. Versus video games which are at HD resolutions, but still composed of mostly flat surfaces and a lot of "tricks" to give things more depth. I cant really pick up that blanket on that couch in that room and set it over on that table and have it drape off and all the lighting and shadowing changes that involes. GTA 4 was still a bunch of empty fake cardboard buildings, a facade of a city and nothing more. Textures are artist creations which can never have the organic complexity and subtelty of randomness of real life. The end result still looks a lot more fake than that old VHS of your '87 family christmas... there just isn't the complexity there and something tells me it won't really be there next generation either.... I feel like it's still going to be invisible barriers... "dont look behind that building because the textures drop off", this... that... etc.. etc..
I dont know... something tells me this is a budget thing. Its too expensive too make all that complexity.. video games need to be pumped out in a year or two, on a reasonable budget, hence probably the next gen trend towards "lower power usage, increased internet functionality...... and a minor visual upgrade lol...."
Comparing interactivity with VHS is silly because you couldn't do anything in VHS. VHS is comparable to cutscenes only. As for improvement, when we have Madden looking like EA's 2005 'next-gen' visualisation, then we can start to talk about a lack of opportunity to advance things. Next-gen should add GI solutions which will add considerably to realism of visuals and help shake that video-game look. We won't get real-life look for yonks, but 'much better' is definitely on the cards.
Even when we do finally get the 'real life's state we will be a long way off with the physics for everything.
No use having things that look real if they don't react and behave real.
yes there is - they look pretty and add believability. Or, there's no use having perfectly flexible and realistic physics if everything looks like its made of blocks and triangles.
We have to have both. One without the other will be jarring.
steampoweredgod
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Why would we be a long way? When we finally do get photorealistic graphics, all further increases via moore's law can be devoted to the way things react. And it is not as if physics processing power hasn't been increasing along with graphics all along these past few generations and will be greater still in the coming generation.
Sorry for ridiculous, it was a bit strong. We disagree on what should be the launch of the system so that somehow explains the difference in expectation.
What I mean is not that what you want is ridiculous but that I don't expect manufacturer to try to fulfill your requirements neither they care too much to loose your money.
People here are technophiles and I'm not sure we've ever been a relevant target for console manufacturers.
Just FYI I think that it really likely that I'll pass next gen not only because of possibly under whelming specs but because I'll have to put a PC together soon and I'll make so it fills all my gaming needs for a while. I think that a lot of people use console for convenience (instead of PC) but I think that we are giving up way to much for convenience. To me some of the best games this gens have been spoiled by terrible IQ and sub optimal control (Mass effect, dragon age among others). Games are more expansive, online is not free, etc. etc.
Steampowered barebone FTW ;-)
Standard toolsets, libraries, techniques and methodologies will go a long way in helping to bridge this gap on games with commonalities to share the investment cost.
This can be applied to not only the interactivity of objects, but physics, AI, and more relevant to the thread topic, to 3d objects (models, textures, and "bones").
How does x look?
How does x act?
How does x react?
etc
The commonality of games and game worlds is increasing ... as processing power increases, expectations increase, and budgets increase.
The time for a massive library to be built is coming soon. Just a matter of someone having the vision, budget, and gumption to execute the concept.
It will drastically change the way games are perceived, and open the market to people that are otherwise non-gamers.
None of which requires 1080p to execute a convincing gameworld.
If only someone had the vision to make a swiss army knife that had every tool in the world on it. Then you could do anything, and it would fit in your pocket!
http://www.webpronews.com/xbox-tablet-controller-2012-02
"Such a move would be costly as having a tablet controller is already causing speculation that the Wii U is going to be expensive despite it’s cheap internal hardware. To answer that question, the sources claim that the new Xbox would keep internal hardware costs low by going with a cheap CPU and GPU."
Lol... obviously a biased rumor probably by some Playstation fanboy... but, I would not be shocked if consoles went in this direction.
Personally, I just want them to take what is currently the Xbox 360, rip out the motherboard and replace it with a 2012-2013 spec one, replace the dvd drive with blu-ray, and leave the controller exactly the same. Do you guys think the majority of gamers would agree with me on that?
"Such a move would be costly as having a tablet controller is already causing speculation that the Wii U is going to be expensive despite it’s cheap internal hardware. To answer that question, the sources claim that the new Xbox would keep internal hardware costs low by going with a cheap CPU and GPU."
Lol... obviously a biased rumor probably by some Playstation fanboy... but, I would not be shocked if consoles went in this direction.
Personally, I just want them to take what is currently the Xbox 360, rip out the motherboard and replace it with a 2012-2013 spec one, replace the dvd drive with blu-ray, and leave the controller exactly the same. Do you guys think the majority of gamers would agree with me on that?
The 360 pad doesn't have enough buttons (in easily reachable places) and I hate the right analogue thumbstick because I can't aim well with it (it's too short and in a less than ideal position for me). I want an improved Kinect, and an improved pad (and yes I'd be a happy with a Vita style touchpad inserted in there front and back) and if I had to lose some raw power then I'd be fine with that.