Upscaling Technology Has Become A Crutch

Scott_Arm said:
I mean, why do you can about the size of their "addressable market." Are companies not allowed to make games that only target higher end hardware? By that logic, Sony shouldn't make PS5 exclusive games, because there is an absolutely massive market of PS4s out there. They should only be making cross-platform games. Between PS5, Series X, Nvidia 20 series and higher, AMD 60x0 and higher they should have a large enough consumer base.
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For sure, companies should target higher end hardware. I mean that's why we have console generations to reset the baseline. The issue is when targeting higher end hardware, reasonable attempts should be made to deliver a satisfactory experience on said hardware. If we consider the ps5/xsx as 1080p native machines, then the game should at least hit that target at a minimum. I don't think many people are impressed by the system requirements that have been released. I understand that this is a tech enthusiast form but, let's not delude ourselves. These system requirements are beyond laughable to the general public. You only need to go on youtube, reddit, etc to do a temperature check. AW2 is not the next crysis, its a walking simulator/wide corridor shooter. I think the serious issue here is the lack of scalability indicated by their settings.

Finally, if the 3070 is doing 540p60, what's the series s doing? 360p30? Who knows, let us see but for me, Remedy is delusional anyway. You can see it in their games.
 
BitByte said:
For sure, companies should target higher end hardware. I mean that's why we have console generations to reset the baseline. The issue is when targeting higher end hardware, reasonable attempts should be made to deliver a satisfactory experience on said hardware ... Who knows, let us see but for me, Remedy is delusional anyway. You can see it in their games.
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Game that isn't out yet declared unsatisfactory experience.

Also, Remedy delusional? Honestly just feels like you're an anti-fan for whatever reason.
 
Scott_Arm said:
Game that isn't out yet declared unsatisfactory experience.

Also, Remedy delusional? Honestly just feels like you're an anti-fan for whatever reason.
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I just don’t like new remedy games. Control, Quantam Break, etc. Played them, gave them a fair shot, and I don’t think they’re good. I personally think Max Payne 2 is the last good game they made. The rest are just alright with very poor plots delving strongly into the “drinking your own kool aid” territory. I’ve kept tabs of the coverage of AW2 and the approach hasn’t really changed per se. So if Remedy keep doing the same thing, should I expect a different result?

Edit: Also with regards to the technical performance, if we take remedy at their word, 540p60 on 3070 class hardware is unsatisfactory. I don’t need the game to come out to know that.
 
Cross gen made people think that RT was the only thing to push new hardware, and that non-RT per pixel workloads had somehow plateaued and weren't going to increase generationally at some point. Combine that with an emotional link to the names of various arbitrary preconfigured graphics settings ("low" or "medium" or "high") and you get much of the backlash against next gen games like AW2.
 
function said:
Cross gen made people think that RT was the only thing to push new hardware, and that non-RT per pixel workloads had somehow plateaued and weren't going to increase generationally at some point. Combine that with an emotional link to the names of various arbitrary preconfigured graphics settings ("low" or "medium" or "high") and you get much of the backlash against next gen games like AW2.
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True. Take this DX11 game about to be released in 2 days without a crutch ...
www.pcgameshardware.de

Cities Skylines 2 im Tech-Test: Hardware-Sprenger mit Performance-Problemen [Update]

Cities: Skylines 2 frisst Hardware zum Frühstück. Unsere GPU-Benchmarks und Hinweise zur CPU-Leistung.
www.pcgameshardware.de www.pcgameshardware.de
 
Scott_Arm said:
@BitByte remember that most post processing would or should be done after upscale and a game like Alan Wake 2 looks post processing heavy. Probably a lot of effects after upscale so saying it renders at 540p is not totally accurate.
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Fair, lets wait and see after release. It's just right around the corner anyway.
 
Remedy is used to this, the original Alan Wake ran at 540p and 30fps on the Xbox 360, Quantum Break ran at 720p30 on the Xbox One, and on PC the game ran by default using a very competent upscaler (you can disable it and run the game on native, but the difference wasn't that large). On Xbox One X, it barely ran at 1440p30. Control on Xbox Series X also ran at 1440p30 (with ray tracing).

In general, Remedy prefers doing lots of dynamic lights on screen, and loves to do advanced dynamic global illumination as well. This forces them to lower rendering resolution, but they make up for it with competent upscalers. That's been their philosophy since Quantum Break.
 
DavidGraham said:
Remedy is used to this, the original Alan Wake ran at 540p and 30fps on the Xbox 360, Quantum Break ran at 720p30 on the Xbox One, and on PC the game ran by default using a very competent upscaler (you can disable it and run the game on native, but the difference wasn't that large). On Xbox One X, it barely ran at 1440p30. Control on Xbox Series X also ran at 1440p30 (with ray tracing).

In general, Remedy prefers doing lots of dynamic lights on screen, and loves to do advanced dynamic global illumination as well. This forces them to lower rendering resolution, but they make up for it with competent upscalers. That's been their philosophy since Quantum Break.
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They have switched to FSR 2 which is going to be a huge problem for IQ.
 
BitByte said:
Huh, the cities devs came out and said they didn’t meet their performance targets? I think that was an honourable thing to do. Much better than some other studios.
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Eh. I dont want to give props for a studio being up-front about this when the results are so dramatically poor. It'd be one thing if the performance was simply underwhelming, but it is shockingly bad here, and much worse than pretty much any other recent example of 'poor performance' in games that people have been complaining about. It really feels like the devs have done no optimization of the rendering process at all. Not saying they were lazy, devs are never lazy, but perhaps they've spent all their time up til recently simply working on making things functional. Either way, the rendering is clearly disastrously inefficient in its current state. It should not have been released like this. Even ignoring the bad PR, it will simply put a heavy cap on who can play it and they'll probably be dealing with a vast amount of refunds.
 
Seanspeed said:
Eh. I dont want to give props for a studio being up-front about this when the results are so dramatically poor. It'd be one thing if the performance was simply underwhelming, but it is shockingly bad here, and much worse than pretty much any other recent example of 'poor performance' in games that people have been complaining about. It really feels like the devs have done no optimization of the rendering process at all. Not saying they were lazy, devs are never lazy, but perhaps they've spent all their time up til recently simply working on making things functional. Either way, the rendering is clearly disastrously inefficient in its current state. It should not have been released like this. Even ignoring the bad PR, it will simply put a heavy cap on who can play it and they'll probably be dealing with a vast amount of refunds.
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True that it shouldn't be released like this at all. It's in a far worse state that other games that people have been complaining about. it seems like the devs hands were forced. However, I appreciate that they gave an honest warning to the general public instead of gas-lighting like some other folks. Look at Todd Howard for example telling people they need to upgrade their pc to play their poorly optimized boring game.
 

I for one am glad to see John talking about this and calling a spade a spade. It's a refreshing change of tone which is what is sorely needed. You can't use FSR2/DLSS as a crutch to upscale from ungodly resolutions as a means of "optimization". Frankly, if your optimization begins with FSR/DLSS, you're already headed down the wrong path.
 
I don't feel that's the actual the take away from that discussion. The complaint was about unrealistic expectations and more so with FSR2 (lets avoid going down that IHV debate) and not that DLSS/FSR2 should not be factored in at all.

Related to expectations I also just don't feel foregoing upscaling is realistic here. If you look at the the entire video quoted they specifically discuss IQ issues with the 60 fps mode. However I just don't see the hardware leap was enough to 1080p30 -> 4k60 along with generational fidelity improvements (keep in mind we're well into the perceived improvements diminishing returns stage relative to the hardware) if we want to render everything in the so called "native resolution." As such without the current upscaling technologies there's going to have to be something else doing the upscaling. Or I guess what we just target native 1080p30 like last gen?
 
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