WiiGeePeeYou (Hollywood) what IS it ?

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so xbox was able to use parallax mapping????;)

is that a rhetoric question?* : )

or are you asking me whether there were xbox titles that used parallax mapping? - this i don't know, but given that there was nothing stopping them from doing so, that's of no big importance.


* i hope you're not implying that ps < 1.4 cannot do parallax mapping - that raycast can be done on any hw that supports dependent texture reads and compare-select op (yes, dx7 included), of course with the respective tradeoffs in precision, and likely over multiple passes (also depending on the targeted precision).
 
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* i hope you're not implying that ps < 1.4 cannot do parallax mapping
Xbox doesn't support PS1.4 tho. :)

Besides, I never saw any software that did parallax bumpmapping on DX8-class hardware, much less DX7... Even if it was technically possible, it must have been so theoretical in nature that it became prohibitively expensive performance-wise to do it.
 
Xbox doesn't support PS1.4 tho. :)

hence the 'less-than' sign in my post ; )

Besides, I never saw any software that did parallax bumpmapping on DX8-class hardware, much less DX7... Even if it was technically possible, it must have been so theoretical in nature that it became prohibitively expensive performance-wise to do it.

nothing is prohibitevely expensive given sufficient fill-rate (ask the ps2 gang : ) ..ops, got me :oops:

ok, for a fill-rate-challenged platform it could have been prohibitively expensive. but hey, at least a couple of cobblestone here and there could have used it ; )
 
What do you think the study indicates?
IIRC, Burnout 3 and Legends on the original xbox looked better than this and

...were ported from the PS2. ;-)

The only reason we didn't see parallax mapping on the Xbox was that it was bottlenecked by RAM. See how easy that game is?
 
I would like your opinion of the Nintendo Recirculating shader patent, particulary its possible implementation as a part of Hollywood.

the 'recirculating shade tree blender for a graphics system' patent covers a TEV-like apparatus (AFAICT from my limited knowledge of the original TEV). now, i did not check the figures whose description you're citing here, but i went through the whole claims section, and these are my impressions:

it does not correspond directly to any dx/gl shader model, but it's a step further from a full-fledged dx7 staged pipeline. the closest thing to the patented apparatus would possibly be nvidia's register combiners.

the 'texture enviroment unit' as they call it in the patent, otherwise known as TEV here, is a multi-steged shading pipeline (just as dx7's) but with greatly improved complexity/flexibility of the individual stage; TEV's stage comprises of a blender/combiner unit and a texture addressing/fetching unit, and the combiner takes up to 4 inputs (vs up to 3 in dx7) comprising colors from the tri rasterizer, the current output from the tex unit and the recirclulation registers from previous stages (i'd assume here one or more drawpass-wise constants too, though i don't remember the patent deliberately mentioning that). the combiner unit itself contains one multiplier and one adder, and runs at twice the rate of the tex unit; now the next is not deliberately stated by the patent, IIRC, but i'd assume this TEV could do one mul-add expression with recirculating arguments and another similar one with the current output of the tex unit, and all this would take one 'stage'. you can have as many as 16 stages like this. ..unless the patent actually means that for 16 combiner stages you can tex-fetch every other stage, which would mean that you could effectively use up to 8 textures for the max num of stages - which would be identical to the original flipper's TEV, AFAIK. i honestly don't remember the patent stating one way or the other. i guess a cube developer could really help us out here by telling how many combining stages the original TEV had. the tex unit itself can do indirection (just like the original TEV) where the output of one stage from the unit goes as addressing to the next stage of that unit (after undergoing an intermediate transform).

for what it's worth, until we get some tip from a cube dev to clear up some points, this patent may just as well be about the original flipper's TEV.

Question, if it is a part, would you expect documentation to be available for first devkits, or could the docs appear later in new dev docs? After Nintendo has come up with all the possible algorithms.

i've never worked with nintendo* so i cannot comment on this. but then again, even if i had, i guess i would not have been at libery to comment on such matters ; )

from common sense, though, whatever nintendo planned to have as a featureset in their final silicon, the same should have been conveyed to devs as early as possible, even if early devkits had very little of that exposed. for something as self-contained as a GPU, that means as soon as its design phase is done.


* i've always been in the PC segment, though at the present i'm in the amusement machines segment, which is probably the closest thing to arcades these days.
 
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What do you think the study indicates?
IIRC, Burnout 3 and Legends on the original xbox looked better than this and through around even more fillrate burning effects.

i said 'if the game ends up..' - until then there's not case-study indicating anything.

as about burnout3 on the box - isn't that the game where people were complaining about the halved framerate compared to the 'golden standard' ps2's version?

anyway, i took a quick look at a couple of pages of screens from that xbox title - i did not see 'even more fillrate burning effects' - there was blur and a reasonable amount of particles at a couple of places, but i did not see any bloom as exibited on the 4x4 shots and the particles overdraw rarely amounted to those fire-trails depicted on the 4x4 screens. again, that's just from my quick glance.
 
i said 'if the game ends up..' - until then there's not case-study indicating anything.

as about burnout3 on the box - isn't that the game where people were complaining about the halved framerate compared to the 'golden standard' ps2's version?

anyway, i took a quick look at a couple of pages of screens from that xbox title - i did not see 'even more fillrate burning effects' - there was blur and a reasonable amount of particles at a couple of places, but i did not see any bloom as exibited on the 4x4 shots and the particles overdraw rarely amounted to those fire-trails depicted on the 4x4 screens. again, that's just from my quick glance.

Perhaps, though burnout revenge* went even further I believe.
And burnout 3 ran at 60fps for single player, but 30 fps for multiplayer. Not sure about revenge, but I wouldn't be too surprised if the ps2 port turned out to be the superior version, it was quite impressive when I played it. 4x4 may have more bloom, blur, and particles, but I'd say the burnout games had better looking environments primarily due to better/more textures.

*Earlier I said legends, which is the handheld port, when I meant revenge.
 
Burnout Revenge also ran 60 fps on the Xbox and added trilinear filtering with proper mipmapping.

The post processing effects like the motion trails and sparks looked better on the PS2, though.
 
I will sumarize the 40+ pages of speculation:

We don't know what Holliwood is and we have no new leaks of information either. Based on personal believes and wishes some think it will be a brand new core a lot more powerful than a +50% overclock of flipper. The other camp thinks it's just and overclocked flipper.

PS: Based just on what seems more logical to me I spect it to be far more powerful than a measly overclocked flipper. 50% more performance does not even deserve the making of a new console.
 
I will sumarize the 40+ pages of speculation:

60+ pages of speculation, mind you.

We don't know what Holliwood is and we have no new leaks of information either. Based on personal believes and wishes some think it will be a brand new core a lot more powerful than a +50% overclock of flipper.

huh? that's a totally new twist - where did you read that?

The other camp thinks it's just and overclocked flipper.

i think we sort dealt with that a couple of pages ago. probably around p. 55-60 or so.

PS: Based just on what seems more logical to me I spect it to be far more powerful than a measly overclocked flipper. 50% more performance does not even deserve the making of a new console.

a measly overclocked flipper? i think you missed about 20 pages of this discussion.
 
i think we sort dealt with that a couple of pages ago. probably around p. 55-60 or so.

There are still people posting in this thread who believe Wii is purely a 50% overclocked GC with extra ram and no other changes.
 
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Yeah. Like me.

Who thinks they'd overhaul parts of the core yet leave it limited to doing a lot of icky dithering? heh. 32bpp has been 'round for a few years now, eh. 'Cept at N apparently.
 
Yeah. Like me.

Who thinks they'd overhaul parts of the core yet leave it limited to doing a lot of icky dithering? heh. 32bpp has been 'round for a few years now, eh. 'Cept at N apparently.

there's nothing icky in dithering. unless you think a ps3 flagship title with stippled alpha is icky too, of course (check out the gran turismo HD thread in the games section of this very forum, in case you have not by now).

more often than not its a sw tradeoff decision, rather than the hw being incapable of manipulating 32bpp color - a decision that buys you something. otherwise the cube can do 32bpp textures - it's not a big deal.
 
there's nothing icky in dithering. unless you think a ps3 flagship title with stippled alpha is icky too, of course
Of course stippled alpha and dithering are both icky in late 2006! (Though, in fairness, there's a pronounced difference between single-pixel sized artifacts in 1080p vs 480p)

And while you're right that it could be a software decision, releasing hardware that forces such a decision at 480p is very icky indeed. Personally, I think there probably are some very small tweaks to the gpu, but it's still mostly gamecube 1.5. But I also realize that this doesn't matter much, because this consoles' true nature is "Wiimote reciever 1.0" - and that has little to do with power.
 
the two things are directly comparable. The "dithering" you speak of in the PS3 or XBOX360 only occurs if you are using alpha testing with AA (alpha to coverage). It won't be be in every single game.
 
the two things are directly comparable. The "dithering" you speak of in the PS3 or XBOX360 only occurs if you are using alpha testing with AA (alpha to coverage). It won't be be in every single game.

in case you're trying to justify something to me, demo, don't - i'm totally ok with dithering or stippled alpha when somebody weighed the pros and cons and decided it was worth it. believe me, the value of console titles to me does not end with an inperfection of this magnitude.

point being, we should not be looking at something as 'inherently wrong' on one platform, while another one is pardoned with the 'but they had to revert to that so they could <insert a reasonable gain here>'. the cube does not inherently dither eveything, (just like the rsx does not inherently stipple any kind of alpha while AAing), and you know that. it was a sw tradeoff there too, it likely bought you something. but if that's a reason for you not to take a platform like the wii seriously, then i'm the last person to try to change that, just let's not try to condemn where no condemnation is due, ok?
 
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