A Summary of the Huge Wii Thread

[wsippel]

If you want to compare a 386 to a Core 2 Duo, say, (they are compatible) I think you perhaps are missing a few details. Like die size/density, say.

What am I missing? The die size is slightly increased compared to Gekko, and optimizations don't neccessarily increase the die size. It's also a few percent larger than a 750CL it seems. Comparing different 386 CPUs (386 vs. Core 2 Duo is stupid, anyway, as the Duo is a dual core CPU and a different, but compatible architecture - it's like comparing the 750CX to a dual core 970) was nothing more than an example to show that it doesn't really matter how old the architecture is.

And you're still missing the point. An off-the-shelf 750CL is not much larger than a 750CXe, but it's still quite a bit faster at the same clockspeed - at least that's what IBM and independant benchmarks tell us. That's what I wrote. Any objections?

Die size is rather telling. Gekko was already a beefed up CPU due to the added SIMD functions (rather basic from what I've read). If Hollywood was truly a serious improvement, it would be bigger than it is methinks. Instead it fits rather well with what you'd get with a 180 nm to 90 nm shrink. This has been discussed several times in the Wii GPU thread. I'm sure it has some tweaks but nothing major.

Hollywood is the GPU, we're talking about the CPU. And the GPU seems to be quite a bit larger compared to Flipper at 90nm, BTW.

 

[The_legend_of_drtre]

Die size is rather telling. Gekko was already a beefed up CPU due to the added SIMD functions (rather basic from what I've read). If Hollywood was truly a serious improvement, it would be bigger than it is methinks. Instead it fits rather well with what you'd get with a 180 nm to 90 nm shrink. This has been discussed several times in the Wii GPU thread. I'm sure it has some tweaks but nothing major.

Ummm...

Hollywood is close to 3 times as big as flipper. If it was a simple die shrink and higher clock hollwyood would be smaller than flipper.. not almost 3 times the size.

 

[swaaye]

Yah yah. I meant Broadway. I mix up the goofball codenames sometimes. Even if Broadway has twice the IPC of Gekko, it's still at 730 MHz. Heh. Not going to get much done there. And I'm still not convinced of some super amazing engineering feat where they managed massive efficiency gains with a core of similar complexity and yet managed to make it work flawlessly with Cube games. I bet, just like with Hollywood, that hardware-level backwards compatibility feature bullet bit them in the rear with regards to advancing the CPU.

But you guys feel free to carry that flag. I'm still waiting for an exciting game library for the machine.

 

[theafu]

Yah yah. I meant Broadway. I mix up the goofball codenames sometimes. Even if Broadway has twice the IPC of Gekko, it's still at 730 MHz. Heh. Not going to get much done there. And I'm still not convinced of some super amazing engineering feat where they managed massive efficiency gains with a core of similar complexity and yet managed to make it work flawlessly with Cube games. I bet, just like with Hollywood, that hardware-level backwards compatibility feature bullet bit them in the rear with regards to advancing the CPU.

But you guys feel free to carry that flag. I'm still waiting for an exciting game library for the machine.

SOTR and God Father have brough me more fun in 2 months than my xbox 360 did in in the first year. We all have preferences but the library comment had to be responded to as it has little to do with the point you just mentioned.

No one is claiming a super engineering feat for the broadway. A few tweaks could easily improve performance in comparison to gekko as others have noted.

 

[The_legend_of_drtre]

Yah yah. I meant Broadway. I mix up the goofball codenames sometimes. Even if Broadway has twice the IPC of Gekko, it's still at 730 MHz. Heh. Not going to get much done there. And I'm still not convinced of some super amazing engineering feat where they managed massive efficiency gains with a core of similar complexity and yet managed to make it work flawlessly with Cube games. I bet, just like with Hollywood, that hardware-level backwards compatibility feature bullet bit them in the rear with regards to advancing the CPU.

But you guys feel free to carry that flag. I'm still waiting for an exciting game library for the machine.

You seem to be focusing too much on clock speeds. The 750cl is a much better chip clock for clock than the PPC's cores in the 360 and ps3.

Go look at some old Gc documents. Factor 4 stated that Gekko was every bit as fast as a 800mhz pentium and this statement was made when Gekko was clocked only at 405mhz.

The 750 cl is not only a much higher clock speed than gekko but has been improved quite a bit. Mhz aren't everything.

The CPU is the Wii is comparable from anywhere from a 1.5-2ghz pentium. That's not too bad considering it's size and form factor. It's not bleeding edge tech, but it's not some piece of crap cpu either.

Like Factor 5 said, it's a very formidable chip for SD resolutions.

Now why would they say that if it wasn't true? They aren't even working with Nintendo anymore... they can say anything they want about them. The said that the sound of the system is behind(which is true) yet they say the chip is powerful for an SD only chip.

As to your last comment...

If games like Zelda TP and Sonic and the Secret rings aren't exicting to you... I don't know what to tell you.

 

[swaaye]

Now why would they say that if it wasn't true? They aren't even working with Nintendo anymore... they can say anything they want about them. The said that the sound of the system is behind(which is true) yet they say the chip is powerful for an SD only chip.

Because Factor 5 was making Cube games and was a close partner with Nintendo at the time and they weren't going to say anything but how great it was. If you are too referring to the quote the other day from them about Wii, I will also say that companies don't bad mouth each other's products unless they are stupid and like to burn bridges. F5 still supplies sound tools for Wii, I believe, too.

If games like Zelda TP and Sonic and the Secret rings aren't exicting to you... I don't know what to tell you.

Z:TP is an awful lot like a prettier Ocarina. I'm not much of a Zelda fan but I gave TP 50 hours (yup, fifty) to get me attached to it. I've not loaded the game up in months now. I'm probably 75% thru it. I was particularly disappointed that the Wii-mote actually made it harder to play.

I'm not a Sonic fan, no.

What I liked on Cube were the Star Wars games (even if they sucked in the end for gameplay; I'm a Star Wars fanatic), XtremeG III, F-Zero GX, RE4, and Eternal Darkness. That's my "treasured" Cube library. I've played more and own more, but they aren't really worth mentioning. Now, I'm not saying that people can't have their own tastes!

What I would like to know is just why Wii is flying off the shelves. Is it all based on an hour with a friend's copy of Wii Sports? It's not like there are really any good games besides that and TP. I bought the thing on launch day in a nostalgic Nintendo weakness moment. Definitely wish I hadn't jumped on it like that.

 

[The_legend_of_drtre]

Because Factor 5 was making Cube games and was a close partner with Nintendo at the time and they weren't going to say anything but how great it was. If you are too referring to the quote the other day from them about Wii, I will also say that companies don't bad mouth each other's products unless they are stupid and like to burn bridges. F5 still supplies sound tools for Wii, I believe, too.



Z:TP is an awful lot like a prettier Ocarina. I'm not much of a Zelda fan but I gave TP 50 hours (yup, fifty) to get me attached to it. I've not loaded the game up in months now. I'm probably 75% thru it. I was particularly disappointed that the Wii-mote actually made it harder to play.

I'm not a Sonic fan, no.

What I liked on Cube were the Star Wars games (even if they sucked in the end for gameplay; I'm a Star Wars fanatic), XtremeG III, F-Zero GX, RE4, and Eternal Darkness. That's my "treasured" Cube library. I've played more and own more, but they aren't really worth mentioning. Now, I'm not saying that people can't have their own tastes!

What I would like to know is just why Wii is flying off the shelves. Is it all based on an hour with a friend's copy of Wii Sports? It's not like there are really any good games besides that and TP. I bought the thing on launch day in a nostalgic Nintendo weakness moment. Definitely wish I hadn't jumped on it like that.

Well if you don't even like a game like Zelda TP how can we expect you to like any Wii game out?

That's like a 360 owner that says Gears of War sucks.

Anyway... when Mario galaxy, Mp3, and smash bros launch this year you will back back to your Nintendo loving ways lol..

But this is OT.

 

[wsippel]

Yah yah. I meant Broadway. I mix up the goofball codenames sometimes. Even if Broadway has twice the IPC of Gekko, it's still at 730 MHz. Heh. Not going to get much done there. And I'm still not convinced of some super amazing engineering feat where they managed massive efficiency gains with a core of similar complexity and yet managed to make it work flawlessly with Cube games. I bet, just like with Hollywood, that hardware-level backwards compatibility feature bullet bit them in the rear with regards to advancing the CPU.

But you guys feel free to carry that flag. I'm still waiting for an exciting game library for the machine.

Don't get me wrong, I don't expect a miracle, like CELL-level performance. I just think that Broadway is about twice as powerful as Gekko overall, even though the clockspeed only increased by about 50% - that's all...

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

I was particularly disappointed that the Wii-mote actually made it harder to play.

Disagree, love aiming with the wiimote, alot better than analoge sticks imo.

What I would like to know is just why Wii is flying off the shelves. Is it all based on an hour with a friend's copy of Wii Sports? It's not like there are really any good games besides that and TP. I bought the thing on launch day in a nostalgic Nintendo weakness moment. Definitely wish I hadn't jumped on it like that.

Because its cheap and people see fun in it is the bigges reason I guess. But it has some good games too, nothing great yet but it took x360 nearly a year too and ps3 also hasnt exactly what you'd call a great game libary yet. But most people could enjoy themselves for some with with games like zelda, Red steel (No it really isnt such a bad game, the start is crap but the farter you get the better it gets), The godfather (yes beating the crap out of someone with the wiimote is fun ) and some other titels like SSX wich I hate but other people think is great etc.

 

[Teasy]

Yah yah. I meant Broadway. I mix up the goofball codenames sometimes. Even if Broadway has twice the IPC of Gekko, it's still at 730 MHz. Heh. Not going to get much done there. And I'm still not convinced of some super amazing engineering feat where they managed massive efficiency gains with a core of similar complexity and yet managed to make it work flawlessly with Cube games. I bet, just like with Hollywood, that hardware-level backwards compatibility feature bullet bit them in the rear with regards to advancing the CPU.

I'm trying to understand exactly what your point is here. For instance - "Even if Broadway has twice the IPC of Gekko, it's still at 730 MHz. Heh. Not going to get much done there". What do you think people expect to get 'done' with this CPU? Twice as powerful as Gekko clock for clock at 730Mhz would make the CPU three times as powerful as Gekko. Nobody thinks it can compete with CELL or XENON so what's your point?

 

[inefficient]

Edit: reply in the wrong thread!

 

[The_legend_of_drtre]

I'm trying to understand exactly what your point is here. For instance - "Even if Broadway has twice the IPC of Gekko, it's still at 730 MHz. Heh. Not going to get much done there". What do you think people expect to get 'done' with this CPU? Twice as powerful as Gekko clock for clock at 730Mhz would make the CPU three times as powerful as Gekko. Nobody thinks it can compete with CELL or XENON so what's your point?

I guess people don't understand that when we say the Wii is quite powerful we are saying powerful compared to last gen.

Last gen consoles like the Gc and xbox still had alot of juice left so I'm really not too concerned.

The 360 and ps3 have power they will never be able to fully utilize in in the next 5 years by the time even newer more powerful system are released.

Wii will probably be the first time we got our money's worth tech wise because by staying a bit behind in the horsepower race they have given us a console that could be pushed very close to it's max over the next few years. That didn't happen with the GC or xbox.

 

[swaaye]

I guess that it's just that I was expecting more all around. 2x Cube isn't exciting to me. Such a machine would've been possible in 2002-3 at Cube's pricepoint. Cube itself was arguably inferior to Xbox and just reading about how Hollywood may have similar limitations with respect to color depth and shaders is quite disappointing. It's like a Voodoo5; the same tech with more pipelines, but a lot less interesting than a NV10/15. I was originally envisioning something like a single or dual core at ~1 GHz or so with a X1600 or X700 derivative. That seemed quite reasonable. And it woulda rocked at 480p and not had any Cube-ish limitations.

I know that they could've done a lot more if they hadn't bothered with backwards compat. I personally don't see the need for this feature. I already own a Cube, thanks. Also, their "easiest for devs" and the desire to maintain absolute price dominance also hurt that. Still, without backwards compat, I think the hardware would be a lot more interesting than it seems to be. Even at the same pricepoint.

And when I look at previews for the machine I don't see what separates it from Cube or Xbox all that much. Mario Galaxy is the most impressive bar none, but it seems to just have great/smart artwork and some excellent use of older techniques like EMBM. Which, I suppose, is fine because it really does come down to art (to a point though).

I just really hope that there is at least one 3rd party who gives enough of a damn to really push what it is. N has seemingly almost run out of serious 3rd parties after their prior partners found out they could sell a lot better on other hardware.

 

[The_legend_of_drtre]

Here are some brand new shots of Driver on the Wii:


http://www.jeux-france.com/blog148140_Blakguy

 

[Oblivion]

Wii games have the worst aliasing problems I've ever seen. Is it that hard to do AA on it? Other than that, it looks pretty nice.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

For some reason Wii screenshots always look bad (just as with DS) but ingame its alot better, not nearly as jaggy.

 

[Teasy]

Swaaye

Looking at most of the specs I think Wii is probably about three times as powerful as GC. Still not exciting vs PS3 and 360, but definitely a great leap up from what we've seen from Wii games so far. Which has basically been poor to average looking GC games.

 

[The_legend_of_drtre]

I just got through playing the final boss in sonic and the secret rings.. the real final boss after you get the 7 world rings. That part of the game looks about up there with Galaxy. It looks that damn good.:smile:

 

[ATI-liens]

Apparently this game uses the Wii's Physx processor for "special Hollywood style effects". I said apparently.

Game looks good, hope more games look like this, the boxy games aren't doing the Wii justice right now.

 

[Oblivion]

I just realized this is a Ubisoft game, too...so they could be bullshots?