Wii Review Scores--A Little Skewed?

As I stated in that post, I understand what you're saying now, and think you're right, I agree with you there. If we're talking about reviews.

Ok, then you'll get no more guff from me!

As it stands, I'm fairly disappointed with Wii. I am certainly not one of those "RE4 looked great, so I don't care" people. I suppose that if Flipper had a fully programmable pipeline and efficient MSAA/AF, I might be inclined to say that significant upgrades really aren't that important...but not an overclock of the current chip, or even more pipelines. I'm not even sure I'll get one unless major studios, since I'll probably get Zelda for the Cube. I think the Wiimote is a good idea that is flawed in execution because the lack of buttons. I want my next console to have at least low-end DX9 graphics. The online needs to be together yesterday.
 
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In many of the multiplatform PS2 reviews I've read, the reviewer usually mentions that the PS2 version is graphically inferior to the XBox version if such was the case. Same with the PC and XBox--they mention how much more clear a game would look in a good PC. In proprietary games, I don't recall reading a reviewer mentioning that the graphics are theoretically inferior to what it would look like in a superior system. Obviously, reviewers wouldn't go into the hypothetical. But for multiplatform games or ports, direct comparisons between systems are fair play.

In 1up, one of the reviewers mentioned that after playing GOW, they couldn't be as excited with the graphics of Resistance. Whether that would factor into a final score, who knows. Whether it's "fair" or not, it's only human to see something spectacular then be let down by something less spectacular.
 
Teasy said:
So by the same token if someone creates a game on 360 or PS3 with the best controls a standard game pad can offer the controls should still be rated as poor if they aren't as good as Wii's controller could offer?

This is just one example of many from various users in this thread I would like to highlight as missing the point. The point being that, on a relative scale (graphics vs graphics or controller vs controller), one could make this argument; however, as far as weighting want is important to the consumer (and reviewer!) only the individual can make that decision.


Extreme example:
Say in a particular game for both Wii and 360 we on a comparative scale assign graphics scores of 1 and 9 respectively, while for control we assign scores of 9 and 1 respectively.

Person A is a graphics whore who doesn't care about control so long as it is functional and doesn't get in his way.... his own weighting of the importance of graphics and control might be seen as .9 and .1. Thus, in his eyes, the 360 game would score .9(9)+.1(1) = 8.2 overall while the Wii game would score .9(1)+.1(9) = 1.8. This person would obviously be better off with the 360 version of the game.

Person B cares more about innovation and interactivity while giving less weight to graphics. Say values of .8 for i&i and .2 for graphics. Thus we have a score of .2(9)+.8(1) = 2.6 for the 360 version and .2(1)+.8(9) = 7.4 for the Wii version. Person B is better off with the Wii version of the game.



What we tend to forget is that reviewers are people too, and just like us they have their own personal preferences. All three companies (Sony, MS, and Nintendo) made decisions based on what they felt would be best for their products in the eyes of the consumers; that they made these decisions doesn't automatically make them right. It comes down to personal preference. We all value different aspects of a game uniquely, but that doesn't mean we get to tell reviewers the scope their feelings towards a certain game or console should have. They are individuals entited to view the situation as it pertains to them.
 
So by the same token if someone creates a game on 360 or PS3 with the best controls a standard game pad can offer the controls should still be rated as poor if they aren't as good as Wii's controller could offer?

If someone creates a great orchestra conductor game using the Wii, and then makes a pathetic attempt to emulate it with thumbsticks on a 360, he deserve to get hammered just as bad on "usability", "control", "gameplay" or whatever you call it, as the developer who tries to port directly to the Wii by downsampling textures a nearly photorealistic (on the 360/PS3) tropical island shooter.
 
When PS2/X-Box/Gamecube came out we were all using SDTV sets. Now a lot of people (and more everyday) have EDTV or HDTV sets. When Wii is outputting to HDTV, of course its graphics are going to look bad, but that's the current or oncoming fast standard for television sets so if a reviewer uses that to review PS3 and XBox 360 games, then they should be using the same set for Wii.

It's not the customer/reviewers fault that Nintendo's system is still outputting SDTV resolutions while the world's moved on.

If a game looks worse on an HDTV than the intended SDTV then a reviewer has to call it. It's not a PC-review, I don't care what the specs of the t.v. or sound system are when I'm playing a game, I just want to know how fun it is and if it looks bad. I also don't want to have to know a reviewer's system. I want a system that plays well and looks good.

I'm not trying to dump on Nintendo, but if they missed the boat, and expected HDTV to have less penetration than it does then that's THEIR fault, no one should change their review t.v. set to accomodate them.
 
How can a reviewer begin to judge what a console, especially one in the beginning of its lifespan, is "capable of"?
 
How can a reviewer begin to judge what a console, especially one in the beginning of its lifespan, is "capable of"?

Well they know it is more powerfull than a XB overall and that it isnt much more powerfull. So if those game dont look at least on par with XB ones (like most (all?) of those) they know it is being underused (like it is said in the IGN COD3 reviewn).

Off curse that isnt the only reason (like I said in my first post) but it shows also some logical reason to to critics.
 
The reviewers are going to need new metrics to capture the value of the Wii controller simply because it such a big change. I have a feeling that it won't be done because the reviewers would consider X360/PS3 as the mainstream system.
 
Simple answer: Yes, the graphics category should get docked. The sub-categoies on sites like IGN are ment to convey a specific quality. In this case graphics.

Most review sites, though, don't bind the final score by a relationship to each category. e.g. Imagine the following game:

Presentation: 6 "Simple menus that take some navigating, but not a big detourant; HUD is a little small, but servicable; average last gen interface missing many of the bells and whistles"
Graphics: 4 "Barely servicable. Obvously R&D was put into gameplay because this looks like a last gen title with higher resolution. Many textures are simple and not very detailed. Some animations are jerky with poor transitions. Some rendering bugs with lighting and shadowing. As much as they don't add anything at all to the genre, they avoid being a stumbling block to the core game mechanics"
Sound: 4 "Quality is average but sounds are simplistic and often repetitive. Poor music, which can thankfully be turned off"
Gameplay: 10 "Perfectly executed gameplay balance, innovation, and depth--engrossing and fun at their best. If only all developers paid this sort of attention to game mechanics and balance. The game plays out differently each time, yet the user never feels frustrated when attempting to adapting to the ever changing balance of the game"
Lasting Appeal: 10 "A host of multi-player options (Co-op; Multiplayer online and with bots with dozens of game types that can be mixed and matched; maps that scale to player count to keep the game fresh and focused regardless of party size; excellent match making and lobby systems create an atmosphere that transcends the game and pulls players into this unique community) as well as a SP experience that will have you coming back for more (multiple endings, different paths to travel, tons of objectives that only become available by taking different paths, different gameplay mechanics depending on style--loner or by the books team guy?). This game rewards players with instant gratification, but also allows gamers to continue reliving the world in different ways"

Does this title deserve a 6.8?

Obviously graphics have their place and are important. They are part of the experience and can convey a lot of emotion as well as immerse the gamer into the world. Some games can even excell based on the experience the graphics convey. Yet there can be more to a game than graphics.

In the end graphics, sound, and so forth are just elements of a game, but don't dictate how great a game is. A lot of people still love older games--but doesn't mean they would inflate the graphics score. e.g. I think Mario Kart (SNES) is probably the best of the home console series in regards to game mechanics and fun. I would rate it as a 1 on graphics (horrible... servicable, but horrible) compared to a next gen racer. But if it were released today I think I could make a compelling arguement that it remains possibly the best game in its genre (arcade-kart racing). Of course few would give it the time of day due to the graphics, but that wouldn't negate what it brings to the table.

360 games have been criticized at times for not matching up to the PC versions. While I would limit such to "home consoles" for a score, it is a worthwhile note and comparison.

As for Wii, Iwata said we would go "Wow" when we saw Wii graphics. Maybe there is more under the hood, maybe not. But it is competing in the home console market. Sure, they are branching out... yet so are MS (XBLA, Online out of the box from day 1) and Sony (Home Media Center, HD media, Online out of the box, "PC" features).

One could argue that Wii scores should only be compared to Wii titles (which can be VERY difficult at the beginning) or they can be within the market. Or they can do a dual score, i.e. Overall/Platform. To ignore the competition though ignores the fact many titles are cross platform (Madden, CoD, etc)

No easy answer, but we all know the PS2 and Xbox were compared (IGN even had a comparison video show). Nintendo chose to invest elsewhere, but it doesn't make graphics less important. Telling consumers "Great game--more fun than on the other platforms--but only servicable graphics" gives a pretty good contemporary feedback, especially to those looking to purchase new systems.

So the real question is are scores ment only for those who own a platform, or for relative to the quality of other titles on the market, or some of both...

That is one reason numeric scores are difficult without expressing what they represent.

So by the same token if someone creates a game on 360 or PS3 with the best controls a standard game pad can offer the controls should still be rated as poor if they aren't as good as Wii's controller could offer?

Console FPS do get knocked at times for not having intuititive and well designed controls. Especially when the analog sticks are poorly executed or button layout for input.

And yes, I think if/when Wii games demonstrate a significant edge in control it should be factored in--many of us consider this when looking at console FPS. Are the controls well adapted to a controller or did they take a KB/MS setup and just try to map it on, and thus frustrating the gamer with a game balance that requires fine percision yet the input device fails?

And you can bet your bottom dollar a ton of Wii games get high scores because they have unique gameplay that creates new experiences not available on a gamepad. And if Sony/MS tried to jump on such a gaming concept mapped to a standard controller and it was only servicable, but not great, and the rest of the game looked like a Wii game I am sure it would get poor reviews.

And to reverse it, if a 8.0 FPS titles ends up on the PS3/X360 and has a high score largely because it has killer graphics -- but generic, slightly above average gameplay -- and takes the same average gameplay and gets totally downgraded graphically on Wii the graphics tilt should go the other way and the title should lose points because the lone "killer" point of having the game no longer stands.
 
Well they know it is more powerfull than a XB overall and that it isnt much more powerfull. So if those game dont look at least on par with XB ones (like most (all?) of those) they know it is being underused (like it is said in the IGN COD3 reviewn).

Off curse that isnt the only reason (like I said in my first post) but it shows also some logical reason to to critics.

Try to apply that to a PS3 or X360 launch title. How would you know what the system is capable of? You would only know that it's more powerful than the previous gen but you wouldn't know how much more - and without that, you couldn't really grade the graphics based on what the capability of the system was.

Furthermore, I'm not so sure any reviewer at this point knows definitively what the Wii is capable of. For instance, some here still believe it's capable of much more. Some even go so far as to say/hope that it has a physics/AI co-processor in it.

In the end review scores, be it graphics, sound, box art, or ability to get hot chicks, is all subjective. The reviewer simply asks himself, "What does this feel like to me?". The Wii will continue to get docked for poorer graphics. Nintendo knows this. We know this. They're simply hoping that graphics will not matter in the end to the broader audience they're pitching it towards - and I'm willing to bet they're right.
 
Some even go so far as to say/hope that it has a physics/AI co-processor in it.

It actually does have a special physics part in the cpu. The guys from elebits said this on E3 I believe, that Wii had some special pyhisics part in the cpu to help out with physics. What its capable off is a different story.
 
Try to apply that to a PS3 or X360 launch title. How would you know what the system is capable of? You would only know that it's more powerful than the previous gen but you wouldn't know how much more - and without that, you couldn't really grade the graphics based on what the capability of the system was.


That is why you saw so many giving them 10 and so many calling them HD XB games or even comparing those games to PC ones. Anyway probably the best way to do it is comparing those games to avaible tech demos (eg UE3) or previewns (eg GoW) that are well know fom day ones or even before.



Furthermore, I'm not so sure any reviewer at this point knows definitively what the Wii is capable of. For instance, some here still believe it's capable of much more. Some even go so far as to say/hope that it has a physics/AI co-processor in it.

None can, yet everyone uses this as a mark, even them. Anyway if people dont know it is Nintendo falt anyway. Anyway even usng what is the worst case of the HW they find games subpar so if it would be even worst if it does have such things. And yes it can have such and that would probably be impossible to use them in such a tight dev time.


In the end review scores, be it graphics, sound, box art, or ability to get hot chicks, is all subjective. The reviewer simply asks himself, "What does this feel like to me?". The Wii will continue to get docked for poorer graphics. Nintendo knows this. We know this. They're simply hoping that graphics will not matter in the end to the broader audience they're pitching it towards - and I'm willing to bet they're right.

Some do that but others try to find "what will be the general feel about this game" and most seems to think that most people will find it bellow what it should be for any new game in a new console. Specially if some of the problems are exactly the same we had last gen games.

It actually does have a special physics part in the cpu. The guys from elebits said this on E3 I believe, that Wii had some special pyhisics part in the cpu to help out with physics. What its capable off is a different story.

Not really there is the actual quote:



Althought if there is some HW to it, it doesnt seems to be well used ATM, but probably ,even with a big focus on it,would be very hard to push it in a launch-window title.
 
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It also depends on the criteria of graphics...

are they looking for immersion to detail?

art assets?

layout?

technical prowess?

overall presentation?
 
One, even considering the rumured specs (XB+ specs)
The rumored specs talk about a 50% OC'ed GC + more RAM. In this situation, the Wii will have the edge over the Xbox when it comes to the RAM, it will probably have a better CPU and that would be about it. Because an 50% OC'ed Flipper wouldn't compare, feature wise and or performance wise, to a NV2A (except for Framebuffer read/writes and EMBM ops).
As it stands, I'm fairly disappointed with Wii. I am certainly not one of those "RE4 looked great, so I don't care" people. I suppose that if Flipper had a fully programmable pipeline and efficient MSAA/AF, I might be inclined to say that significant upgrades really aren't that important...but not an overclock of the current chip, or even more pipelines. I'm not even sure I'll get one unless major studios, since I'll probably get Zelda for the Cube. I think the Wiimote is a good idea that is flawed in execution because the lack of buttons. I want my next console to have at least low-end DX9 graphics.
Welcome to the Graphic Connaisseurs Club, fearsomepirate.

For a moment, I thought that you bought the nonsense Nintendo execs spewed about the all sudden unimportance of the video part in videogames, as if quality graphics, for some mysterious reasons, would negate the quality of the gameplay or something along these lines.
And according to them that talk is not a way to tackle the fact that they trying to sell the same hardware, with a new controller, 5 years later and that at a premium (for psychological price reasons, they can't price the machine too low or else the average folk would think, rightfully, that it's really underspec'd compared to the X360/PS3).

I, for one, am cool with the "let's try something different" idea. I'm also cool with the idea of Nintendo not going for a high end machine. I'd rather see them try, though, but let's say that I wouldn't mind in the end if they didn't produce something on par with X360/PS3 graphical capabilities.

All they had to do was put together a cheap, yet competitive on a graphical standpoint, console for SD/EDTV resolutions (480i/p). It didn't need to be SM3.0 compliant, a simple striped down version of, say, the R420 or even the R350, 256 or even 192MB of RAM and a single core IBM PPE CPU running at 1GHz+ would have been cheap enough for them to produce and probably break even from day one at $250.*
More importantly, they would have sold their consumers a new machine that they hadn't bought before, some keywords here, with enough graphical capabilities to offer them "next-gen" version of their favorite games, such as Zelda, for one.

Anyway, what I still don't understand is why the Nintendo fans don't complain to Nintendo more. I mean, in a perfect world, the Nintendo fans would vote with their money and tell Nintendo that the joke they're trying to pull on them is a bit too much, even for the most die-hard fans. But that won't happen, so...

*No, please don't try to argue that the two 6-axis accelerometers in the remote and the nunchuck, as well as the basic IR LED in the remote are something expensive to produce. Because they're not, not at all in fact. The bulk prices of these elements are available for those who are really interested in discussing the matter.
 
That is why you saw so many giving them 10 and so many calling them HD XB games or even comparing those games to PC ones. Anyway probably the best way to do it is comparing those games to avaible tech demos (eg UE3) or previewns (eg GoW) that are well know fom day ones or even before.

The reason why the reviewers gave them 10s for graphics was because they were comparing the graphics from the x360 games to graphics on other platforms most likely, the Xbox1.

Tech demos are hardly the standard of a system's capability as the situations are so contrived.

It's impossible for a reviewer to judge the capability of a system in a vacuum. Once more games on the platform come out, then the graphics comparison is judged against those (on the same platform).
 
They end up saying games look but because they arnt as good looking as ps3/x360 gfx but imo that is like saying a BMW M5 is a slow car because it cant keep up with a Ferrari Enzo. Yes compared to the Enzo a M5 is slow, but the M5 is still faster than most other cars out there. The same goes for the Wii. Its not a ps3/x360 but that doesnt mean its not fast.

Um.... I think you got it wrong. The graphics we are gonna see on the Wii, would be comparable to a BMW m5 (in your little car analogy) back in 2002.

Its 2007 soon, and the graphics on this console is closer to a BMW 316i than it is to a BMW M5 if your looking at your competition.
 
Welcome to the Graphic Connaisseurs Club, fearsomepirate.

For a moment, I thought that you bought the nonsense Nintendo execs spewed about the all sudden unimportance of the video part in videogames, as if quality graphics, for some mysterious reasons, would negate the quality of the gameplay or something along these lines.

Allow me to use a beer analogy, since I'm sick of car analogies. There are certain beer snobs who self-immolate if what's on tap isn't a spiced lager imported directly from Czechoslovakia or a thick porter straight from the British Isles. I am certainly not one of them. There are other folks who say "Who cares as long as it's beer? Plus it's cheap! Isn't the point to be drinking beer?" and consume Keystone Light and MGD in vast quantities.

Not me. I'm more than happy with a bottle of Red Hook or Sierra Nevada. I'm even not above picking up a 12 of Coors Longnecks if I'm feeling a little broke. It's pretty simple: I like beer, I don't think an enjoyable beer has to be expensive, and there's no excuse for making cheap beer that tastes like piss, since Coors pulls this off pretty well.

What you listed were basically the specs I expected Wii to have. This "we overclocked Gekko and Flipper so that we could focus on making great games" business is crap. I hope to God that the ATI rep wasn't lying when he said current Wii titles barely scratch the surface of Hollywood, but I have my doubts. There are some scenes in Red Steel that show some promise...but we do know now that the CPU is a totally dated piece of junk. It doesn't even have a VMX unit, right?

I mean, in a perfect world, the Nintendo fans would vote with their money and tell Nintendo that the joke they're trying to pull on them is a bit too much, even for the most die-hard fans.

Well, part of my problem is that I am actually getting kind of bored with standard console games and the shortcomings of dual-analog sticks. But I'm also tired of seeing Gouraud artifacts, jaggies, texture shimmer, banding, lights that don't actually, you know, light anything up, characters walking on top of shadows, and flat surfaces lacking any depth.
 
The reason why the reviewers gave them 10s for graphics was because they were comparing the graphics from the x360 games to graphics on other platforms most likely, the Xbox1.

Tech demos are hardly the standard of a system's capability as the situations are so contrived.

It's impossible for a reviewer to judge the capability of a system in a vacuum. Once more games on the platform come out, then the graphics comparison is judged against those (on the same platform).

Note: reviewers don't live in vacuums. They generally get to see and review a large number of games before the public, so they have a much better idea of how graphics compare.
 
The rumored specs talk about a 50% OC'ed GC + more RAM. In this situation, the Wii will have the edge over the Xbox when it comes to the RAM, it will probably have a better CPU and that would be about it. Because an 50% OC'ed Flipper wouldn't compare, feature wise and or performance wise, to a NV2A (except for Framebuffer read/writes and EMBM ops).

I should expressed my self better, they are using they only "officiall" (ie that you can track down to a dev related with Nintendo, namely the Ubisoft guy) reference which said that: overall Wii is more powerfull than XB, even if the GPU cant do all that XGPU can, this should be read as: overall games should look better than XB games (no matter how, and a good example of that is the RS E3 trailler that (like darkblu explained in the other thread) could be done with flipper feature set, or even the Rebith demo look way better and it is done with flipper feature set, so at end it isnt only a problem of the feature set). So we know that games could/should be look better than XB ones but they dont.

Tech demos are hardly the standard of a system's capability as the situations are so contrived.

If you compare some demos like the UE3 ones they actually looks preety much lke the game.


But I'm also tired of seeing Gouraud artifacts, jaggies, texture shimmer, banding, lights that don't actually, you know, light anything up, characters walking on top of shadows, and flat surfaces lacking any depth.

That is basically what I feel too.
 
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Note: reviewers don't live in vacuums. They generally get to see and review a large number of games before the public, so they have a much better idea of how graphics compare.

The representative sample of games at launch, even for a reviewer, do not indicate what a console is "capable of". Otherwise launch games would get a 10 for graphics, and games later in the lifespan would get > 10.
 
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