Wii Review Scores--A Little Skewed?

Lets do a closely paralleled, but simplified, hypothetical.

I'm looking at product X, Y, and Z. Each product has a different producer. Each product also has three different categories on which they compete, categories A, B, and C.

Your analogy is flawed because the products have different target platforms. For example, Red Steel doesn't compete with Gears of War for graphics any more than FFXII competes with FEAR (both got very high graphics ratings), the reason being that you can't stick GOW in your Wii and play it. A game review should review the game, not the platform. Let's make a similar comparison with cars, our favorite anlogy to game consoles.

By your standard, every single tire manufacturer should get bottom-barrel ratings for their truck tires for the reason that no matter how top-line your F250's tires are, it won't corner as well as a Corvette Z06. But obviously, it would be completely unhelpful to the truck owner if every consumer magazine rates all truck tires with a D- for traction.

Any discussion about rumble vs motion sensing are moot.

For game reviews, yes. Resistance doesn't have rumble, and it shouldn't be docked for that, because it has nothing to do with Insomniac. You are confusing hardware comparisons with game reviews. And why not extend it across all platforms? Why not give every PS2 game a 3.0 for graphics, since they look like junk compared to the latest PC and X360 titles? Why not score every DS and GBA game with a 1.0? Why not give every console FPS a 5.0 for gameplay, since K&M on PC is a thousand times better? The answer is that games are almost always judged relative to their platform.

IMO, you can't penalize software for the hardware it's running on. For the most part, game reviews are targeted at people who already own the hardware...if reviews were targeted primarily at people who didn't own a game platform and were trying to make a choice, maybe that would make sense (and I suppose it makes sense at launch). But notice that, for example, DS titles are no longer getting dinged for not having texture filtering or widescreen.
 
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I think it's inevitable in the beginning that Wii games will be compared to X360 and PS3 games graphically. It might be a subconscious thing but further down the road when more Wii games arrive I think this will change and new Wii games will be compared to other Wii games when it comes to graphics and things will pan out.
 
has anyone bothered to think that maybe those games just dont look up to level of what the Wii should be? Reviewers will not dock points because is not a 360 games, most companies review games specific to that system.
 
Lets do a closely paralleled, but simplified, hypothetical.

I'm looking at product X, Y, and Z. Each product has a different producer. Each product also has three different categories on which they compete, categories A, B, and C. Each producer devotes a certain amount of resources to each of those categories. On a scale of 1 to 10 it breaks down like this:

Product X
  • A: 10
  • B: 5
  • C: 7
Product Y
  • A: 7
  • B: 10
  • C: 5
Product Z
  • A: 5
  • B: 7
  • C: 10
As a consumer/reviewer, are you saying I shouldn't compare the products based on their varying strengths just because the producers of each focused their resources on different areas? Should product Z not be criticized because its Category A is so low, and only complimented because its category C is so high? They each want my money. To ignore their individual weaknesses seem silly to me, its not showing the whole picture. The graphics should no more be ignored as compared to the competition then the price, or the controller. If we're going to do that, then any discussions about Live vs PNP are moot. Any discussion about rumble vs motion sensing are moot. For that matter, any discussions about $600 vs $250 is moot, and so is "innovative" vs "trite." Why would we not compare their strengths and weaknesses? As a consumer, it would seem important to me to understand that the product I'm buying lacks in certain aspects but excels in others as compared to the competition.

Your logic is flawed and limited. Using such a "hypothetical" to buy a console is acceptable, but your "hypothetical" is only useful for multi-platform users (a minority) in terms of game purchases. Also, that usefulness is lost on exclusive games. Who really wants to see reviews cater to such limited use method when generating game scores.

If you only own a Wii, 360 or PS3 what more useful? Games scores relative to your console's game library or scores relative to all platforms.

If I own a Mustang and I am looking for aftermarket brakes, whats the use of seeing a bunch a brakes scoring in the 5-7 range on a 1-10 scale only because the scoring is skewed by highend brakes available only for Porches, Lambos and Ferraris.

Yeah, looking at BMW vs. Mercedes vs. Audi comparsions would be useful when you are in the market fof a car from any of those manufacturers, but what the use of such comparsions when you've already made your choice on the manufacturer and only the question of "which model?" exists.
 
All game reviews (at least on the major, professional sites) are rated in comparison to other titles on that console.

i.e. A 10/10 on the Atari 2600 would not be a 10/10 on Xbox 360 if ported directly.
 
Your analogy is flawed because the products have different target platforms. For example, Red Steel doesn't compete with Gears of War for graphics any more than FFXII competes with FEAR (both got very high graphics ratings), the reason being that you can't stick GOW in your Wii and play it. A game review should review the game, not the platform. Let's make a similar comparison with cars, our favorite anlogy to game consoles.

By your standard, every single tire manufacturer should get bottom-barrel ratings for their truck tires for the reason that no matter how top-line your F250's tires are, it won't corner as well as a Corvette Z06. But obviously, it would be completely unhelpful to the truck owner if every consumer magazine rates all truck tires with a D- for traction.

By my standard, a truck tire would be rated poorly, in say, road noise, if manufacture A decided to focus their efforts on mud/snow traction while manufacture B focused more on road noise (the trucks wouldn't come into play, in this case). I'm talking apples to apples comparisons here (well, at least that's what I'm trying to do, but not conveying that very well). 3 new consoles, they each want my money for the same thing, the next iteration of video game based entertainment. They each accomplish this in different ways. My (attempted) analogy is looking at the choices the manufacture made and how that reflects on the software. Comparatively speaking, when it comes to the competition, the graphics for Wii games will be worse. Specifically for multiplatform games, it should absolutely be marked down for having worse graphics. Whose fault is it? It doesn't matter, as a consumer I don't care. I want to know which version has the best graphics, which has the best audio, controls, fun factor, etc etc. I think that's a pretty fair apples to apples comparison. I would no more let Nintendo off the hook for weaker hardware then I would let Sony get away with saying "ummm, ok guys. We're not going for the next generation of online experience. We're going for a new generation of online service. Therefore if all games don't have standardized friends list like they do on Live, don't get mad at us or the developers. So, you can't mark the game down for having a worse online experience (as compared to the competitions offerings), because that wasn't 'our goal' with the system."

However, in the cases where we aren't talking multiplatform, direct comparisons, I now see why the graphics shouldn't be graded so harshly. As I stated in my previous post, it would be unfair to mark Mario Galaxy down on graphics, simply because the next Ratchet and Clank looks better. Unless, of course, we decided to compare the two consoles based on their platform games. But, that doesn’t really pertain to reviews (and I think that's where I was getting myself mixed up).

For game reviews, yes. Resistance doesn't have rumble, and it shouldn't be docked for that, because it has nothing to do with Insomniac. You are confusing hardware comparisons with game reviews. And why not extend it across all platforms? Why not give every PS2 game a 3.0 for graphics, since they look like junk compared to the latest PC and X360 titles? Why not score every DS and GBA game with a 1.0? Why not give every console FPS a 5.0 for gameplay, since K&M on PC is a thousand times better? The answer is that games are almost always judged relative to their platform.

The PS2 isn't competing with the newest PCs or the 360. The PS2 isn't one of the new consoles coming out competing for the home entertainment dollar. Where it competes is with the XBox and Gamecube. And the PC doesn't directly compete with anything, its in its own market (in my opinion, at least). I understand your point, and now agree to certain extent that games should be judged relative to their platform. I amend my previous statements. I think I also confused general comparisons of platform A software vs platform B software with how game is reviewed.
However, if we're looking at 3 different versions of the same game, the hardware factor should definitely come into play. In such cases, it doesn't matter what the hardware can or can't do. What matters is which version performs best in which areas? Nintendo decided not to focus on hardware. That will be reflected in certain parts of a multiplatform game. MS decided to focus heavily on online functionality/infrastructure, which will be reflected in certain aspects of the game as well. Lets look at Tony Hawk on the PS3 and 360. Should the PS3 version not be knocked down because of lack of rumble? Lack of online support? Both are elements that reflect Sony and Microsoft’s respective decisions.

Although, on 2nd thought, reviewing a multiplatform game and comparing them are two different things. In the case of a review, I suppose it wouldn't make sense to mark the Wii version lower than the PS360 version, unless we're doing a direct comparison between them. But as a consumer, specifically a multiplatform consumer, I still want to get an idea of which does what best. Hmmm, that complicates things.

If you only own a Wii, 360 or PS3 what more useful? Games scores relative to your console's game library or scores relative to all platforms.

Yes, this is the element I was missing in my logic (or ignoring). I was speaking entirely from a multi-platform user perspective (without realizing it), which does make that a limited application.
 
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If your competitors in the market have moved the bar for what is "acceptable" in terms of average visual fidelity then it would not be correct to afford Wii titles high marks for graphics. Yes even Zelda or Mario. They come into direct competition with their RPG and platformer equivalents on PS3 and 360.

However graphics have never been Wii's selling point so the issue is moot. It's success will not be defined but what people think of the graphical power of the platform but what they think about it's innovative control scheme. No one should worry about review scores.
 
I find it slightly amusing that people are getting upset about Wii games getting poor scores in an area they purposefully decided to neglect.

There seems to be a belief that it's "unfair" to downgrade the Wii for its obviously inferior graphics, while they don't seem to be getting enough of a "bonus" for their tradeoff.. the unique controller.

I can't see how anybody is shocked by this. This is exactly the gamble that Nintendo made this generation, and its why many people are skeptical of the chances of the Wii's success.

See, the thing is.. there was nothing wrong with the traditional controller. Why would Gears get downgraded for not having a Wiimote? It doesn't need one.

Nintendo is going to see the fruits of their decision in terms of gameplay scores, if the wiimote is implemented properly, and will hope that those scores offset the knocks they knew they were going to take in graphics scores.

There's nothing at all unfair about this.
 
Nintendo has made it clear that they're out of the "arms" race in terms of graphics. However, the competition is still in, and since graphics are, believe it or not, considered important in video games the comparison to the competition is fair. They made their decision, SCE and MS made theirs. Ford can't say "we'll, we're not going to focus on quality, so don't judge our cars on that when comparing them to others. Only look at our strengths." That's just not going to fly.

A correct analogy would be Ford saying "well, were not going to focus on fancy metal flake paints, or chameleon color changing paint jobs, so don't judge our cars on that. Only look at how fun this not so fancy painted Mustang GT is to drive"
 
I find it slightly amusing that people are getting upset about Wii games getting poor scores in an area they purposefully decided to neglect.

There seems to be a belief that it's "unfair" to downgrade the Wii for its obviously inferior graphics, while they don't seem to be getting enough of a "bonus" for their tradeoff.. the unique controller.

Ok firstly nobody is getting upset, people are having a discussion. I hadn't really thought about this much but after reading this thread I can understand the point being made. A game can only have as good graphics as the console will allow. Considering a reviewer is reviewing the game and not the console its pretty silly not to review that game within the limits of the console its on. Fair enough if a site is doing a head to head review of a multiplatform game, but otherwise its a pointless excercise.

Rating games against others on the same system, when it comes to things like graphics, is how reviews normally work anyway. I've seen many a PS2 game getting a 9 and even 10 rating for graphics on numerous review sites and magazines. Yet no PS2 game would get that kind of rating if its compared directly to the best looking XBox and GC games.

Obviously it could just be that, at the moment, none of the currently reviewed Wii games deserve a high score for graphics even compared to what the Wii itself can produce. So I think we should wait and see how other reviews pan out.
 
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I think there is actually an inherent issue with rating Wii graphics, historically it has been possible to compare the graphical fidelity of console games across all of the available 'Current Gen' platforms, PS2, XBOX & NGC all had triple A titles that could be compared graphically with the best available on the competing consoles and it wasn't too difficult to do the mental calculations required to take into account that the XBOX was the strongest console graphically, yes you could argue about the technical merits of various titles but aesthetically speaking they would be in the same ballpark so when a 9 game came along you would know that it could be fairly reasonably compared to similar games on the other consoles, this gen the expectation seems to be that this will still be the case with PS3 & 360 games but it is evidently not the case with the Wii & reviewers have to work out how to take account of that.

I would imagine that the only way to do that would be to assume that all console buyers know there is a substantial gulf betwen PS3/360 & Wii and score Wii games completely independantly.
 
By my standard, a truck tire would be rated poorly, in say, road noise, if manufacture A decided to focus their efforts on mud/snow traction while manufacture B focused more on road noise (the trucks wouldn't come into play, in this case).
My mistake. I thought you were comparing different games geared for different platforms, which would be like comparing truck tires to sports car tires.
I'm talking apples to apples comparisons here (well, at least that's what I'm trying to do, but not conveying that very well). 3 new consoles,
I thought Excite Truck was a video game, not a console. Graphics scores are for games, not for consoles.
The PS2 isn't competing with the newest PCs or the 360. The PS2 isn't one of the new consoles coming out competing for the home entertainment dollar.
People are still spending a lot of home entertainment dollars on PS2 and its games, actually.
Where it competes is with the XBox and Gamecube.
And yet, PS2 games full of grainies, jaggies, 4-bit textures, and gouraud shading regularly get 8's and 9's for graphics, despite Xbox games looking way better. The fact is the market is just as much segmented by platform as it is segmented by "generation" or "home console vs handheld." Until people start getting different paychecks legally restricted to only certain forms of video game entertainment, they're all competing for the same dollars. And that's why PS2 review scores didn't suddenly plummet when either Xbox or X360 came out, and why Advance Wars can get rated a 9 despite not having any polygons.

I've noticed most people jumping in this discussion really aren't cognizant enough to differentiate hardware from software. You can say Nintendo purposefully neglected the power of its machine, but it would be totally unfair to say, for example, Ubisoft is neglecting graphics in Red Steel and give their game a negative review for that reason. It's not "neglect" to use the resources you have available. What would "trying" look like? Shipping your game with extra silicon to solder into the motherboard yourself?

Well, this should all even within a month or two, as reviewers get used to the idea that no developer is going to work magic with their software.
 
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Ok firstly nobody is getting upset, people are having a discussion.

Oh, it certainly seems to me that there's a tone of 'its not fair!' from people who are shocked that their console of choice is getting subpar reviews for putting out games with last generation graphics.

The point people are making is that a game can only have as good graphics as the console will allow. Considering a reviewer is reviewing the game and not the console its pretty silly not to review that game within the limits of the console its on.

Disagree completely. If all the competitors have raised the baseline, then that becomes the new standard. Again, Nintendo made the decision not to compete graphically. It's completely ridiculous for a reviewer to give 9s or 10s to a game that clearly looks subpar in today's market, even if its the best looking game on that particular console.

I've seen many a PS2 game getting a 9 and even 10 rating for graphics on numerous review sites and magazines. Yet no PS2 game should be able to get that kind of rating if its compared to XBox or even GC games.

No PS2 game? GOW actually did look good, and did look good compared to Xbox and GC games. RE4 actually did look good compared to Xbox and GC games.

Are you saying that RE4 got such praise for its graphics because it was the best looking game on the GC? No. It got such praise because it looked so good compared to anything else.
 
And yet, PS2 games full of grainies, jaggies, 4-bit textures, and gouraud shading regularly get 8's and 9's for graphics, despite Xbox games looking way better.

Forget 8's and 9's, the best looking PS2 games get 9's and 10's for graphics. Despite not looking up to scratch with the best looking games on competing systems.
 
Reviews of Zelda so far seem to have been saying that the graphics are not great compared to other Gamecube games, not to games on the 360 or PS3.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2006/11/13
See the problem is that he’s partially right. The game doesn't look very good. I don’t just mean it doesn’t look like Gears of War either, I mean it doesn’t even look good for a GC game and let’s be honest here that’s what we’re talking about. I’ve seen beautiful games on the Cube. Crystal Chronicles, Wind Waker and Resident Evil 4 were all incredible looking games. Twilight Princess can’t really compare to any of them. So he’s right about that, what he’s wrong about is everything else.

Even though the game doesn’t look all that great, it’s still Zelda and it’s fucking awesome.
 
There is some things that we must have in considerations.

One, even considering the rumured specs (XB+ specs), some think that wii gfx are on par or bellow XB games (eg IGN COD3 reviewn, althought they also talk about a few minor control problems, or even LoZ, above).

Two, people dont really know what to expect from Wii, but this also mean that they probably expected more.

Three, the reviewn of the first games is also a reviewn of the console itself and everyone would like if Wii had better gfx than the ones presented by those games.

Four, it is hard to know why a console game still present some gfx problems like the ones present on Wii (specially in a 250$), wich I do agree.

Five, gfx do matter for many, even if not when compared to gameplay, they do matter.
 
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RancidLunchmeat

Yes people are saying this is unfair, but that's only an opinion, not an emotion.

Of course your correct that Nintendo decided not to compete graphically this generation, but reviewers aren't reviewing Wii, they're reviewing a game. The developer of the game didn't decide that Wii wouldn't be as powerful as 360 or PS3.. If they produce a game that really pushes Wii's hardware then they should be praised for that. Not told "well you didn't achieve the impossible and make your game as good looking as a PS3 game so we're going to give you a poor rating".

Obviously none of the games shown so far seem to be even touching the hardware never mind pushing it (giving the rumoured XBox+ power). But that's for another discussion :)

Also yes a lot of PS2 games looked good, but that doesn't mean they deserved a 10 for graphics when compared directly to the best looking games of the generation. Yet we have GoW with a 10, Metal Gear 3 with a 10, and numerous others. They got those scores because they raised the bar for PS2 graphics, not because they raised the bar for console graphics as a whole.
 
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My mistake. I thought you were comparing different games geared for different platforms, which would be like comparing truck tires to sports car tires.

Actually it would be like comparing different cars from different manufactures aimed at the same market but with different goals, different engineering, and different manufacturing techniques. e.g. Camry vs Fusion vs Accord vs Impala. Toyota, Ford, Honda and Chevy's decisions when making the car all affected the outcome of the car. As I've stated, if we're talking about reviewing for what it is, and ignoring the competition, than I was wrong there, originally, rate them individually. That makes more sense, particularly for "single" platform gamers. However, that deals strictly with reviewing. Now, if you're talking about comparing the products then we're right back to where we started (or was it where I started?). The decisions the manufactures made (with the hardware) will reflect in the game, and should thus be brought up in a comparison. Strictly speaking of a review, I was wrong, that wouldn't make sense. But if we're going to compare...

I thought Excite Truck was a video game, not a console. Graphics scores are for games, not for consoles.

And the decisions made by the manufacture of the console directly effects the graphics of the games (along with other elements). IF we're going to compare game A against game B, for whatever reason, then you're darn skippy the graphics should be compared, along with the control schema, etc etc. If we're just talking about a review, then again, yes, I agree. It wouldn't make sense to do that.

People are still spending a lot of home entertainment dollars on PS2 and its games, actually.

That was never in question and nor apart of the issue, as far as I can tell. I'm referring specifically to new consoles. People looking to spend money on the next generation aren't looking at the PS2.

And yet, PS2 games full of grainies, jaggies, 4-bit textures, and gouraud shading regularly get 8's and 9's for graphics, despite Xbox games looking way better. The fact is the market is just as much segmented by platform as it is segmented by "generation" or "home console vs handheld."

As I stated in that post, I understand what you're saying now, and think you're right, I agree with you there. If we're talking about reviews.

I've noticed most people jumping in this discussion really aren't cognizant enough to differentiate hardware from software. You can say Nintendo purposefully neglected the power of its machine, but it would be totally unfair to say Ubisoft is neglecting graphics in Red Steel and give their game a negative review for that reason.

I agree, it would be unfair, in a review of Red Steel, to compare its graphics to Gears of War. However, if we're going to look at the Wii and 360, and compare them and their FPS shooter line-up, then in no way is its unfair to compare the deficiencies of each platform. That's where I was originally getting my points and myself confused. A game review versus a game comparison. However, you’re adding confusion to this point when you bring up the fact that they’re all competing for the same gaming dollar. In that, you’re inviting comparisons of the Wii vs PS360, which I think alienates your original point about review scores being skewed. Or maybe I brought that point up and you’re just responding. Hmmm… confusion ensues….
 
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You keep talking about how Nintendo decided not to compete graphically. Which is correct of course, but reviewers aren't reviewing Wii, they're reviewing a game. The developer of the game didn't decide that Wii wouldn't be as powerful as 360 or PS3, if they produce a game that really pushes Wii's hardware then they should be praised for that. Not told "well you didn't achieve the impossible and make your game as good looking as a PS3 game so we're going to give you a poor rating".

And in a perfect world they would also know what a Gflop mean to correctly evaluate the gfx use in any game, but they are humans and given that it is almost impossible to make such a diference and/or even be usefull to the public that understand even less than they do (because this is what the genaral console public will feel when they look at the game, so from this POV I think the reviewn is well done).
 
And in a perfect world they would also know what a Gflop mean to correctly evaluate the gfx use in any game, but they are humans and given that it is almost impossible to make such a diference and/or even be usefull to the public that understand even less than they do (because this is what the genaral console public will feel when they look at the game, so from this POV I think the reviewn is well done).

I'm not talking about any specific review out at the moment. I've got no problem with any of the currently reviewed Wii games getting 7's (or even lower in some cases) for graphics.
 
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