What do you see the next gen consoles doing Graphicly?

[Paul]

"yes you are not including the r200 patch in there. Its be stated that the 9700 runs doom 3 with the arb2 path. I have no clue what the standardgl path is. You may be rendering it using the path for the geforce and geforce 2 cards for all i know"

uhmm the Nvidia extensions are the NV path, the standardGL is FOR Radeons, belive me I know.


There is no arb2 path in the config, just try the tweak out, you'll be shocked.

 

[Paul]

Here you go friend.

Graphics Synthesizer – Features and General Specifications

GS Core Parallel Rendering Processor with embedded DRAM

Clock Frequency 150 MHz

No. of Pixel Engines 16 (in Parallel)

Embedded DRAM 4 MB of multi-port DRAM (Synced at 150MHz)

Total Memory Bandwidth 48 Giga Bytes per Second

Combined Internal

Data Bus bandwidth 2560 bit

Read 1024 bit

Write 1024 bit

Texture 512 bit

Display Color Depth 32 bit (RGBA: 8 bits each)

Z Buffering 32 bit

Rendering Functions Texture Mapping, Bump Mapping

Fogging, Alpha Blending

Bi- and Tri-Linear Filtering

MIPMAP, Anti-aliasing

Multi-pass Rendering

Rendering Performance

Pixel Fill Rate 2.4 Giga Pixel per Second

(with Z buffer and Alphablend enabled)

1.2 Giga Pixel per Second

(with Z buffer, Alpha and Texture)

Particle Drawing Rate 150 Million /sec

Polygon Drawing Rate 75 Million /sec (small polygon)

50 Million /sec (48 Pixel quad with Z and A)

30 Million /sec (50 Pixel triangle with Z and A)

25 Million /sec (48 Pixel quad with Z, A and T)

Sprite Drawing Rate 18.75 Million (8 x 8 Pixels)

 

[jvd]

"yes you are not including the r200 patch in there. Its be stated that the 9700 runs doom 3 with the arb2 path. I have no clue what the standardgl path is. You may be rendering it using the path for the geforce and geforce 2 cards for all i know"

uhmm the Nvidia extensions are the NV path, the standardGL is FOR Radeons, belive me I know.


There is no arb2 path in the config, just try the tweak out, you'll be shocked.

I'm going to have to break out doom3 alpha then .

 

[jvd]

Here you go friend.

Graphics Synthesizer – Features and General Specifications

GS Core Parallel Rendering Processor with embedded DRAM

Clock Frequency 150 MHz

No. of Pixel Engines 16 (in Parallel)

Embedded DRAM 4 MB of multi-port DRAM (Synced at 150MHz)

Total Memory Bandwidth 48 Giga Bytes per Second

Combined Internal

Data Bus bandwidth 2560 bit

Read 1024 bit

Write 1024 bit

Texture 512 bit

Display Color Depth 32 bit (RGBA: 8 bits each)

Z Buffering 32 bit

Rendering Functions Texture Mapping, Bump Mapping

Fogging, Alpha Blending

Bi- and Tri-Linear Filtering

MIPMAP, Anti-aliasing

Multi-pass Rendering

Rendering Performance

Pixel Fill Rate 2.4 Giga Pixel per Second

(with Z buffer and Alphablend enabled)

1.2 Giga Pixel per Second

(with Z buffer, Alpha and Texture)

Particle Drawing Rate 150 Million /sec

Polygon Drawing Rate 75 Million /sec (small polygon)

50 Million /sec (48 Pixel quad with Z and A)

30 Million /sec (50 Pixel triangle with Z and A)

25 Million /sec (48 Pixel quad with Z, A and T)

Sprite Drawing Rate 18.75 Million (8 x 8 Pixels)

so basicly it falls inbetween the voodoo2 and the tnt2 in terms of performance but in terms of polygon power its up there with the geforce 2 and 3s

 

[Lazy8s]

This reference to Tekken Tag Tournament is erroneous. The original PS2 Tekken Tag Tournament launched in Japan first and had atrocious image quality, earning it the nickname "Tekken Jag Tournament". It was the revised version that launched months later in the US that got cleaned up.

 

[zidane1strife]

so basicly it falls inbetween the voodoo2 and the tnt2 in terms of performance but in terms of polygon power its up there with the geforce 2 and 3s

... and in terms of bandwith it's beyond any known consumer level gpu in the market, and I think it's higher than gf2 and gf3 when it comes to fillrate.

 

[Grall]

whats the speed on the gs 200mhz ? how many pipe lines did it have ? Yes it can move lots of polygons . And its polygon pushing takes hits when you factor in all the other things it can't support natively and have to be done in several passes.

Clock is just under 150MHz (really, it IS 150MHz for all intents and purposes), it has 16 pixel pipes, half of those with a texturing unit, meaning it does 16 flat or gouraud shaded pixels/clock or 8 textured pixels/clock. Not sure if that is bilinear or trilinear filtered.

It has MONSTER fillrate, absolutely MONSTER. You can't compare the 1.2Gpix textured fillrate it has with current fast graphics cards, the eDRAM and super-wide buses in the graphics synth gives the thing SO much more raw performance than any GFFX or Radeon 9500+ it's silly.

I believe Fafalada stated once this MONSTER rasterizer didn't even give a s#!t if you did stupid things on purpose like 10x overdraw per frame etc. It's a MONSTER. (Are you starting to see a pattern developing here? Hehe!). It does render to texture at INSANE speed. It does emulation of stencil fills at INSANE speed (16 pipes, remember?).

This means multitexturing and tons of alpha-blend effects don't slow this MONSTER down much at all (just watch the MGS2 first level intro with all the car headlights and the rain etc).

The vector units of the emotion engine are far more advanced than the vertex shaders of current GPUs. They do conditional branching for example I believe, and allow longer programs too. This makes soft skinning and other kinds of mesh deformations such as facial animation a breeze, and other kind of advanced features possible too, like realtime higher-order surface tesselation and such. They're pretty darn fast at transforming polys as well. MGS2 shows this just fine. Look at the details of the tanker in the intro, or all the stuff on that bridge for that matter. In-game movie sequences runs at 30fps with motion blur.

Stand at the start of the second level and just watch that entire Shell platform get drawn at 60fps with NO HITCHES in framerate! I've NEVER seen that game chug even once!

Calling the graphics synth a Voodoo2 piece of technology is a grave insult. That silly thing has more onboard memory, sure, but its pixel fill at 90mpix/s and 180mtex/s at most (efficiency is probably rather atrocious, if anyone can run 3dmark 2001 fillrate test on it that would be cool, but I don't think that version runs on a piece of c£@p video card like a V2), means GS leaves it far far far FAR behind even if you SLI two V2s together.

Performance-wise, GS is like about 13 1/3 Voodoo2s on steroids you might say, counting only raw textured pixel fill ability. Feature-wise, it has some stuff V2 does not, 24-bit frame buffers and textures, better Z precision, destination alpha blending etc. V2 can't do trilinear filter either for that matter.

It lacks a lot of nifty stuff compared to a GeForce-level GPU, but that really doesn't matter much when it has so much raw brutal power it can just burn some fillrate and poly transforms and accomplish those same effects anyway. Besides, have you seen any games really utilizing the 'Nvidia Shading Rasterizer', or bumpmapping either for example during the GF256's natural life? Or even GF2 for that matter, hehe.

You think a GF256 with it's (all theoretical, never achieved in reality) puny 480mpixels/s fillrate, 5GB/s memory bandwidth and 25mpolys/s fixed-function transform ability compares the slightest to the MONSTER that is the EE+GS? You seen any game running on a GF256 that looks anywhere close to Zone of Enders 2 for example? Don't be rediculous!

So what if the GS has to do some extra passes to emulate what the GF256 might do in one. It doesn't care! It blows that thing away anyhow!

Also, when texture requirements on V2 exceeds the alotted 8MB, fps will tumble like a rock. V2 is a PCI device with 133 poorly utilized MB/s at most available to it which might have to be shared between a multitude of other PCI devices (including UDMA100 harddrives in only slightly older systems). GS has a dedicated 1.2GB/s bus just for EE<->GS transfers IN ADDITION to the 3.2GB/s system memory bandwidth. No comparison. Also, Voodoo2 is not a busmaster PCI device to the best of my knowledge. Means transfers to the card will hit system performance bad if you have to do a lot of them. It's okay with older games because likely you won't transfer any textures at all really on a per-frame basis (they all fit fine into those 8MB), and poly densities are low.

When you say things like a V2 can run MGS2 fine though, it starts getting really rediculous. Not only would the card choke on the poly densities (all transforms has to be done on host CPU and go over the slow PCI bus), you'll bop your head immediately on the fillrate ceiling. Even XBox with it's far superior fillrate compared to a V2 gets strangled! Then, once you have to start streaming textures also it gets really silly.

You'd count seconds per frame and not the other way around, hehehe! Maybe your definition on running MGS2 fine, not mine.

Don't mess with the mighty PS2 man, you'll get burnt!



*G*

PS: Okay, seriously. Of course PS2 has limitations, technical and otherwise. Well, only technical actually, since it is a piece of technology. Though you have to admit you are being unfair comparing the thing to a silly Voodoo2. That's just stupidity leaps far and above anything anyone should expect to see on this board.

 

[jvd]

whats the speed on the gs 200mhz ? how many pipe lines did it have ? Yes it can move lots of polygons . And its polygon pushing takes hits when you factor in all the other things it can't support natively and have to be done in several passes.

Clock is just under 150MHz (really, it IS 150MHz for all intents and purposes), it has 16 pixel pipes, half of those with a texturing unit, meaning it does 16 flat or gouraud shaded pixels/clock or 8 textured pixels/clock. Not sure if that is bilinear or trilinear filtered.

It has MONSTER fillrate, absolutely MONSTER. You can't compare the 1.2Gpix textured fillrate it has with current fast graphics cards, the eDRAM and super-wide buses in the graphics synth gives the thing SO much more raw performance than any GFFX or Radeon 9500+ it's silly.

I believe Fafalada stated once this MONSTER rasterizer didn't even give a s#!t if you did stupid things on purpose like 10x overdraw per frame etc. It's a MONSTER. (Are you starting to see a pattern developing here? Hehe!). It does render to texture at INSANE speed. It does emulation of stencil fills at INSANE speed (16 pipes, remember?).

This means multitexturing and tons of alpha-blend effects don't slow this MONSTER down much at all (just watch the MGS2 first level intro with all the car headlights and the rain etc).

The vector units of the emotion engine are far more advanced than the vertex shaders of current GPUs. They do conditional branching for example I believe, and allow longer programs too. This makes soft skinning and other kinds of mesh deformations such as facial animation a breeze, and other kind of advanced features possible too, like realtime higher-order surface tesselation and such. They're pretty darn fast at transforming polys as well. MGS2 shows this just fine. Look at the details of the tanker in the intro, or all the stuff on that bridge for that matter. In-game movie sequences runs at 30fps with motion blur.

Stand at the start of the second level and just watch that entire Shell platform get drawn at 60fps with NO HITCHES in framerate! I've NEVER seen that game chug even once!

Calling the graphics synth a Voodoo2 piece of technology is a grave insult. That silly thing has more onboard memory, sure, but its pixel fill at 90mpix/s and 180mtex/s at most (efficiency is probably rather atrocious, if anyone can run 3dmark 2001 fillrate test on it that would be cool, but I don't think that version runs on a piece of c£@p video card like a V2), means GS leaves it far far far FAR behind even if you SLI two V2s together.

Performance-wise, GS is like about 13 1/3 Voodoo2s on steroids you might say, counting only raw textured pixel fill ability. Feature-wise, it has some stuff V2 does not, 24-bit frame buffers and textures, better Z precision, destination alpha blending etc. V2 can't do trilinear filter either for that matter.

It lacks a lot of nifty stuff compared to a GeForce-level GPU, but that really doesn't matter much when it has so much raw brutal power it can just burn some fillrate and poly transforms and accomplish those same effects anyway. Besides, have you seen any games really utilizing the 'Nvidia Shading Rasterizer', or bumpmapping either for example during the GF256's natural life? Or even GF2 for that matter, hehe.

You think a GF256 with it's (all theoretical, never achieved in reality) puny 480mpixels/s fillrate, 5GB/s memory bandwidth and 25mpolys/s fixed-function transform ability compares the slightest to the MONSTER that is the EE+GS? You seen any game running on a GF256 that looks anywhere close to Zone of Enders 2 for example? Don't be rediculous!

So what if the GS has to do some extra passes to emulate what the GF256 might do in one. It doesn't care! It blows that thing away anyhow!

Also, when texture requirements on V2 exceeds the alotted 8MB, fps will tumble like a rock. V2 is a PCI device with 133 poorly utilized MB/s at most available to it which might have to be shared between a multitude of other PCI devices (including UDMA100 harddrives in only slightly older systems). GS has a dedicated 1.2GB/s bus just for EE<->GS transfers IN ADDITION to the 3.2GB/s system memory bandwidth. No comparison. Also, Voodoo2 is not a busmaster PCI device to the best of my knowledge. Means transfers to the card will hit system performance bad if you have to do a lot of them. It's okay with older games because likely you won't transfer any textures at all really on a per-frame basis (they all fit fine into those 8MB), and poly densities are low.

When you say things like a V2 can run MGS2 fine though, it starts getting really rediculous. Not only would the card choke on the poly densities (all transforms has to be done on host CPU and go over the slow PCI bus), you'll bop your head immediately on the fillrate ceiling. Even XBox with it's far superior fillrate compared to a V2 gets strangled! Then, once you have to start streaming textures also it gets really silly.

You'd count seconds per frame and not the other way around, hehehe! Maybe your definition on running MGS2 fine, not mine.

Don't mess with the mighty PS2 man, you'll get burnt!



*G*

PS: Okay, seriously. Of course PS2 has limitations, technical and otherwise. Well, only technical actually, since it is a piece of technology. Though you have to admit you are being unfair comparing the thing to a silly Voodoo2. That's just stupidity leaps far and above anything anyone should expect to see on this board.

I've already said in my posts its a monster when it comes to polygons and yes it has a ton of fillrate. I've stated though that its missing many effects and filtering modes that the voodoo2- geforce quality cards have.

I also said dreamcast can do mgs2. Never said the voodoo2 could. Since the voodoo2 is at the mercy of a general cpu.

I also wonder how much fillrate the gs can sustain . Last thing is ram . The geforce cards had 32-64 megs of onboard ram. Is that more that the whole ps2 system had ? Lots more textures. Then it suported dxtc textures which once again let u use more.

It may be a beast but being a beast doesn't allways get you a head.

We have to wait and see what they uses a gs this time around . what i really want to know is how much a 64 meg cell chip is going to cost .

 

[Lazy8s]

The problem with your analysis, Grall, is that it's comparing to PC graphics accelerators as they've been implemented in the PC environment, not a console environment like the PS2 example. Building a Voodoo or TNT card into an optimized console environment, to make this a direct comparison, would yeild significantly better performance (like PowerVR2 in DC as opposed to its later Neon 250 PC release.)

 

[marconelly!]

I also said dreamcast can do mgs2

You honestly think so? Well, maybe it could with all the effects removed and framerate halved, maybe not even then. Dreamcast was just terrible with effects and such stuff. PS2 had moments of slowdown in MGS2, when things get too hectic, btw and the game was built completely to it's strengths. Have you seen what kind of PC monster do you need to run MGS2:S half-decently? It's basically not even worth trying without GF4, and even then the effects are scaled down compared to the PS2 version.

 

[jvd]

I also said dreamcast can do mgs2

You honestly think so? Well, maybe it could with all the effects removed and framerate halved, maybe not even then. Dreamcast was just terrible with effects and such stuff. PS2 had moments of slowdown in MGS2, when things get too hectic, btw and the game was built completely to it's strengths. Have you seen what kind of PC monster do you need to run MGS2:S half-decently? It's basically not even worth trying without GF4, and even then the effects are scaled down compared to the PS2 version.

The dreamcast was great with effects . I think if the game was reprogramed for the dreamcast (not a crappy port) The dreamcast would run it fine. Hell it might run it better , with more textures and what not. It spit out shenmue which was a beautifull looking game. It also spit out soul caliber and doa2. dreamcast was a smart piece of tech. It could def do mgs2. There isn't a crazy amount of stuff goingon in mgs2. IT was dark , it used the same textures over and over again. It never had many chars or objects in the game at once. Even the boat scene would not cause the dc trouble as it would excell with the amount of over draw in it. Thats one of the main strengths of the power vr tech

 

[Lazy8s]

MGS2:S for PC and Xbox are probably not designed with those types of architectures in mind. The game is a custom PS2 job ported to foreign architectures - hardly a basis for making performance assumptions.

 

[marconelly!]

JVD, keep telling that to yourself, but I honestly think you are closing your eyes a bit too much if you don't see why MGS2 couldn't be done done on the DC. Just the rain effect alone would choke the poor thing, it was made to hit on those areas of PS2 where it excels over DC so much that I don't even know how to stress that enough.

Name me one game on DC that had effects that are anything close to those of MGS2, because I sure as hell don't know any.

Not many characters? How about those rooms with 64 soldiers, or that room with all the soldiers plus the extremely detailed Metal Gear?

I mean, to me it sounds as ridiculous as if someone was saying PS2 could do Doom 3 intact, or something like that... I'm not saying DC couldn't do nice graphics, but the kind of graphics MGS2 is doing is simply not something it could pull off.

 

[jvd]

JVD, keep telling that to yourself, but I honestly think you are closing your eyes a bit too much if you don't see why MGS2 couldn't be done done on the DC. Just the rain effect alone would choke the poor thing, it was made to hit on those areas of PS2 where it excels over DC so much that I don't even know how to stress that enough.

Name me one game on DC that had effects that are anything close to those of MGS2, because I sure as hell don't know any.

Not many characters? How about those rooms with 64 soldiers, or that room with all the soldiers plus the extremely detailed Metal Gear?

I mean, to me it sounds as ridiculous as if someone was saying PS2 could do Doom 3 intact, or something like that... I'm not saying DC couldn't do nice graphics, but the kind of graphics MGS2 is doing is simply not something it could pull off.

shenmue handles rain just fine . Don't see where your gong with that . I think your being very closed minded. The dc could do alot of things the ps2 couldn't do. Or do well. Bump mapping is one of them. Yes the dc might have a problem with the few rooms with 64 soldiers in them. But i'm sure that they would find a way around it.

If you port anything from a design as diffrent as the ps2 to the pc or another game system and don't change it to take advantage of the other systems specs of course it would run like crap.

 

[Lazy8s]

On the subject of a hypothetical DC MGS2, I think a MGS2 re-imagined specifically for DC hardware could look ace. Using the hardware's strengths for presentation of stealth action, you would probably focus on lighting (and shadows) with per-pixel effects, bump mapping, and modifier volumes - leaving you with the look of a mini-Splinter Cell of sorts. It would look solid running in high resolution, too, thanks to the benefit of progressive scan.

 

[marconelly!]

shenmue handles rain just fine . Don't see where your gong with that . I think your being very closed minded.

With all due respect jvd, if you even think those two rain effects are comparable, I'm not the one being close minded. You can run both games with those effects on the screen side by side and see for yourself if you don't want to take my word on it. Rain effect in MGS2 is in the class on it's own when it comes to effects of that kind, and it's being combined with motion blur, depth of field and other stuff like that all the time. I'll just say it again, the game was built to hit on where PS2 is *by far* stronger than Dreamcast, yet it still had moments of slowdown exactly when too much of those effects were going on.

What Lazy8 is saying is much more reasonable, IMO.

 

[chaphack]

Ah, time to bring up more Sony hype of yesteryear:: Remember that Sony once said PS2 was so powerful that it will last 5-7 technologically? Heeeheeeheee, we all know what happened after that

Oh! ANd they recently expressed bitterness when that didnt happen. Something along the lines of, "we thought PS2 was a powerhouse that will be on the top of the tech spectrum, but months later PC was totally surpassing it with ease. We got OWNED badly."

I am not sure how much IT tech knowledge Sony really have. Oh well, at least IBM is working with them now.

chap.... what on earth are you on about now?

your stupidity never fails to surprise me. REALLY....

not only that stuff never happened, but i can see that the PS2 is actually holding it VERY well with games like SH3 and ZOE2, not to mention upcoming titles like J&D2, GT4.....

please please chap, stop your immature trolling, or go to the IGN.com boards to do that.... not here

SIGH! I hate to own you so badly londonboy......

1) I live on planet Earth, the same as you.

2)Stupidity? Based on what you quoted me, Sony did say something like that. They overestimated the power of PS2 and in the end the hype got blown up in their own face. How can that be stupid when i just re-said what Sony told the press? See, i am just warning zidanestrife about the Sony hype.

3)Holding up against the newer system......i sure like to see your definition of holding up, because that is NOT true. I got ZOE2 recently and i tell you, apart from the particle madness(which i heard OTOGI does as well), ZOE2 is not much different from ZOE1, not to mention the addition of constant slowdowns.

Now, i will say this, Xbox does what PS2 can(hipolygon and effects), and more! with tons ol' pixel effects, dynamic lights and shadows, higher res, sharper textures, better image quality, better FSAA, better audio and more robust online capabilities.

Yes, it is one year later, and that is precisely why it IS leaving PS2 graphics behind.
If you will, please buy and Xbox and play its games.

 

[randycat99]

whats the speed on the gs 200mhz ? how many pipe lines did it have ? Yes it can move lots of polygons . And its polygon pushing takes hits when you factor in all the other things it can't support natively and have to be done in several passes.

Clock is...

Grall, that was an unprecedented owning you just did! What do you call that...how do you say...Shock & Awe?

I think we can dispel with this TNT comparison crap from now on. Those who continue to make reference to it shall be considered pre-emptively owned.

 

[jvd]

whats the speed on the gs 200mhz ? how many pipe lines did it have ? Yes it can move lots of polygons . And its polygon pushing takes hits when you factor in all the other things it can't support natively and have to be done in several passes.

Clock is...

Grall, that was an unprecedented owning you just did! What do you call that...how do you say...Shock & Awe?

I think we can dispel with this TNT comparison crap from now on. Those who continue to make reference to it shall be considered pre-emptively owned.

How so ? He showed me it pushed tons of polygons and had huge fillrates. Does it even have the bandwith to allow it to reach its fillrate ? Is its feature set the same or less than that of the tnt ? The geforce sdr had massive fillrates and yet never reached it because it was bandwitdh limited. Yes the tnt only had 8-16 megs of ram but thats more so than the 4 megs that the ps2 uses.

Just cause something does 2 things out f a dozen better than another thing doesn't mean it ownz it. Fillrate is great but when there is no hidden surface removal hardware built into it you will spend that extra fillrate quite quickly esp when it needs to do things that gs can't do. That takes alot of cycles and passes.

Man i don't know if this thread can get much further off topic

 

[jvd]

shenmue handles rain just fine . Don't see where your gong with that . I think your being very closed minded.

With all due respect jvd, if you even think those two rain effects are comparable, I'm not the one being close minded. You can run both games with those effects on the screen side by side and see for yourself if you don't want to take my word on it. Rain effect in MGS2 is in the class on it's own when it comes to effects of that kind, and it's being combined with motion blur, depth of field and other stuff like that all the time. I'll just say it again, the game was built to hit on where PS2 is *by far* stronger than Dreamcast, yet it still had moments of slowdown exactly when too much of those effects were going on.

What Lazy8 is saying is much more reasonable, IMO.

What lazy8 is saying is the same thing i'm saying . You build the game for the dreamcast with the aim to look and play just like mgs2 and you will get mgs2.

Rain effects in mgs2 are nice. In the darkness they look fine. I wonder how they would stack up in a day time scene compared to the rain in the day time of shenmue . Shenmue rain effects were top notch. How they compare to mgs2 effects i don't know. I'd have to sit and study both of them. Of course my opinion may be diffrent than yours.

There are some games on the ps2 that i will agree can not be done on the dreamcast. Mgs2 is not one of them .