What are the chinks in XB360's armour?

[DigitalSoul]

hey, dont start that shit.

I wasnt the one who started the shit:
a. Created this bash thread (or)
b. Bashed any actual consoles.

So maybe you should pay close attention to who's actually stirring the shit.

*sigh* ^^^what we have here is everthing not wanted/not needed in this forum.

 

[Arty]

If you notice you now have a post count of 1 again and if you ever want to see that number climb past 1 you will stop your flaming and your trolling or i will delete each and every post you make . If you don't believe me ask chap. Chap will tell you how anal retentive i am . This is jvd btw .

 

[ninelven]

erased

 

[EasyRaider]

No DVI? What? To me, that is definitely a point in favour of the PS3. Actually, it pretty much rules out XB360 entirely. I doubt I would actually notice a difference, but there is something to be said about the peace of mind that comes from knowing you have the best quality practically possible.

 

[PG2G]

Well, when you consider that most TVs have only one HDMI/DVI input, I could care less that X360 only supports Component/VGA. It would have taken a back seat to my Bluray/HD-DVD anyway.

 

[Titanio]

Well, when you consider that most TVs have only one HDMI/DVI input

We should be so lucky

It would have taken a back seat to my Bluray/HD-DVD anyway.

The MPAA won't let any hidef movie signals to be output over anything other than HDMI or HDCP-compliant DVI. So bluray or hddvd (or dvd upconversion for that matter) really needs a DVI or HDMI output anyway.

 

[Dave Baumann]

previous frame or tile? that's essential. if it's frame, then that is in line with what i said - they can carry out zbuffer writes while the last tile of the prev frame is being resolved. if it's tile, and more imporantly not the last one of the frame, then i'd be very curious to know how they do it assuming that Xenos is still an IMR, i.e. its access within a tile is still random.

I'm fairly sure that I asked in each of the cases of frame, tile and RTT. I didn't think to ask at the time exactly how this was the case though - I was already suffering a little from information overload on the call!

 

[Dave Baumann]

Gigabit Ethernet.. uhh... why not? Sheesh, these things come "free" now with almost every mobo you buy and have for over a year. I agree that seriously hurts its ability as a multi-media hub.

They come on most motherboards but they are not free - there is still a cost associated (its just part of the motherboard price). What you'll notice, though, is that there are very few North or Southbridges that have GigE integrated, instead most of them use a separate chip; this is probably why they don't carry it as the SiS southbridge probably doesn't integrate it.

However, I would also suggest that this come down to a usage level at initial introductio, like HDMI/DVI support - how many people actually have GigE routers? Most DSL/Cable/Wan routers for the home that I've encountered are 10/100 and not 1000. 10/100 is fine for streaming video and if you want to stream more than that simulataneously I doubt the XBOX would be the best thing for it.

 

[ecliptic]

No DVI? What? To me, that is definitely a point in favour of the PS3. Actually, it pretty much rules out XB360 entirely. I doubt I would actually notice a difference, but there is something to be said about the peace of mind that comes from knowing you have the best quality practically possible.

It's not the best quality possible. Only fixed pixel HDTVs benefit from a digital connector. The rest of the HDTVs will simply convert the signal to analog and cause picture quality degradation because it had to be converted.

Digital and analog is still debated in most HDTV forums. Digital is not guaranteed better quality.

 

[Pozer]

Gigabit Ethernet.. uhh... why not? Sheesh, these things come "free" now with almost every mobo you buy and have for over a year. I agree that seriously hurts its ability as a multi-media hub.

They come on most motherboards but they are not free - there is still a cost associated (its just part of the motherboard price). What you'll notice, though, is that there are very few North or Southbridges that have GigE integrated, instead most of them use a separate chip; this is probably why they don't carry it as the SiS southbridge probably doesn't integrate it.

However, I would also suggest that this come down to a usage level at initial introductio, like HDMI/DVI support - how many people actually have GigE routers? Most DSL/Cable/Wan routers for the home that I've encountered are 10/100 and not 1000. 10/100 is fine for streaming video and if you want to stream more than that simulataneously I doubt the XBOX would be the best thing for it.

I don't think people understand at those levels of transfer the CPU is still the bottleneck. I have rarely seen a 10/100 NIC be able to transfer a constant 12.5 MegaBytes a second (100 mbits). Atleast not the cheapo onboard or $9 netgear/linksys. The higher end 3com or intel 64bit PCI will as they have hardware support. 12.5meg a sec is more than enough for any streaming video. Gigabit has its uses bit is overkill for a gaming system and people that are on DSL/Cable.

 

[BOOMEXPLODE]

I initially thought the subject line was a racial epithet

 

[a688]

Gigabit Ethernet.. uhh... why not? Sheesh, these things come "free" now with almost every mobo you buy and have for over a year. I agree that seriously hurts its ability as a multi-media hub.

They come on most motherboards but they are not free - there is still a cost associated (its just part of the motherboard price). What you'll notice, though, is that there are very few North or Southbridges that have GigE integrated, instead most of them use a separate chip; this is probably why they don't carry it as the SiS southbridge probably doesn't integrate it.

However, I would also suggest that this come down to a usage level at initial introductio, like HDMI/DVI support - how many people actually have GigE routers? Most DSL/Cable/Wan routers for the home that I've encountered are 10/100 and not 1000. 10/100 is fine for streaming video and if you want to stream more than that simulataneously I doubt the XBOX would be the best thing for it.

I don't think people understand at those levels of transfer the CPU is still the bottleneck. I have rarely seen a 10/100 NIC be able to transfer a constant 12.5 MegaBytes a second (100 mbits). Atleast not the cheapo onboard or $9 netgear/linksys. The higher end 3com or intel 64bit PCI will as they have hardware support. 12.5meg a sec is more than enough for any streaming video. Gigabit has its uses bit is overkill for a gaming system and people that are on DSL/Cable.

The CPU is definitely NOT the bottleneck of a NIC transfering data. The bottleneck is the HDD (or whatever physical storage medium unless you have an extremely quick RAID setup). You can run programs that keep all of its data in physical RAM to test network speeds and it nets you a result much closer to the theoretical speeds of Gigabit networks than you would ever get streaming a video off of a HDD.

Edit: The inability of a slower NIC to transfer at its "max" is also caused by the overhead of the communications protocol, network errors, and the design of the NIC. Some are built better than others and have better support. The bottleneck is STILL NOT the CPU.

 

[EasyRaider]

It's not the best quality possible. Only fixed pixel HDTVs benefit from a digital connector. The rest of the HDTVs will simply convert the signal to analog and cause picture quality degradation because it had to be converted.

Digital and analog is still debated in most HDTV forums. Digital is not guaranteed better quality.

Well, duh, I wouldn't care if I wasn't planning to use a fixed pixel display. Actually, I won't have a HDTV at all, just a computer monitor (LCD, unless OLED or some other flat panel tech surpasses it).

 

[wco81]

Rather than one component or one aspect, if the X360 has a shortcoming, it could be that they aimed too low -- 720p, 2/4x AA with no digital outputs.

If Sony is able to pull off 1080p, HDR and get games anywhere near the videos they showed, it may turn out that MS aimed for too incremental an improvement (480p to 720p with more filtering) rather than a bigger leap. Another bit of Sony hype is this talk about the power to simulate large complex systems like a big metropolitan city or worlds. If they pull something like that off using the headroom that the Cell is suppose to provide, that could be another point of differentiation.

But these are all big ifs. Especially the question of whether 1080p displays become afforable enough in the next 5-6 years.

 

[rabidrabbit]

If indeed the xbox360 lacks HDMI connection, it'll be a big minus in my book.
Just as the lack of s-video in Game Cube has kept me form buying it this gen. I have limited connectibility options free in my TV and AV receiver, and because I refuse to use composite, and I refuse to add clutter with some scart divider, the only option for connecting a Game Cube would be s-video.
It might not sound like a big deal, but to me it has been the final smll stone that has tipped the scale just that much to be enough not to buy a Game Cube.

The same will happen with xbox360.
The next display I buy, possibly within the next two years, will be HD and will have one or more HDMI (or digital DVI).
Also the next AV reciver I buy will most likely have HDMI routing.

(ok, I probably wouldn't buy xbox360 even if it had HDMI, unless all the good games for some unexplainable reason came exclusively for xbox360. Halos, Forzas, PGRs etc. are just not enough to tip that scale )

 

[jvd]

Another bit of Sony hype is this talk about the power to simulate large complex systems like a big metropolitan city or worlds. If they pull something like that off using the headroom that the Cell is suppose to provide, that could be another point of differentiation

Like frame city killer ? The thousands of zombies on screen at once in dead rising ? How about the four thousand +(mabye up to nine thousand ) creatures on screen at once in kameo ?


Sadly with the actual time diffrence between the two systems you wont see a big leap at all. It will certianly be smaller than the power jump from the ps2 to the xbox


Basicly the only problem i see is lack of a digital output hook up other than that all its choices are balanced. 1080p will not be widely avalible for sometime and even then it will be a while before it hits any sizable market pentration .

720p with 4xfsaa however will look stunning and is the fastest growing hd tv hardware on the market


Lack of a high def media format isn't a big deal as there is no established format and there may not be one for a long time and as stated above market penetration will be very small for many years . By the time they need to worry about that we will be chatting up the next systems

 

[Acert93]

In all fairness, if Acert had taken that same advice, gosh's reply wouldn't be a comparison of systems, either. Acert was the first to compare the X360 to the PS3 (despite your requests otherwise), and the gosh responded. What? No admonishment for Acert?

Acert realised his comments were misplaced and apologized. He also wasn't spouting nonsense like...

3) Consumers feel nickled and dimeD at paying 299? I wonder how they will feel when paying 475 for PS3

...which totally misses Acert's point of continuing fees and throws in a spurious PS3 pricepoint founded on goodness-knows-what theories.

However, you are right in that Acert shouldn't really have made mention of PS3 (something I didn't pick up very strongly as I mostly skimmed through his points) so here's a smacked hand and 'don't do it again' for Acert

:sigh: I did read Shifty's request, and if people read what I wrote very carefully I am very careful not to go "PS3 ownzers the Xbox 360" or any nonsense.

The original question was chinks in the Xbox 360 armour (at the time it had not been clarified it was only HW so my thoughts were a bit more broad). I think most people would agree that any device, in a vacuum with no competition, has no chinks. Chinks in armour are only relevent when someone is poking at them

Yet my focus was not that of Xbox 360 vs. PS3... but more the market in general: MS's goals, Consumer desire, and yes MS's competition. Not in the sense of sizing them up, but how they may expose certain weaknesses.

I apologize to Shifty if my post derailed his thread. That was never my intent and I am pretty sure he understands that. I was trying to contribute a throughful response to his thoughtful question. I believe I was trying to answer the question "in the spirit" of his intentions.

I am dissappointed others are making it into something it was not: an Xbox bashing or an "Xbox vs. PS" post. The PS3 is only mentioned within the context of possible deficiencies MS's design may have due to market expections, evolution, and growth.

Every potential shortcoming I've seen in the system has at least one reasonable argument going against it. So there's nothing wrong as far as I am concerned until developers actually start running into the boundaries frequently.

I agree.

Shifty asked for potential chinks in MS's armour so I gave some. But I agree with you Inane, I think MS has potential solutions for every issue (or non-issue... e.g. Dave gave an excellent reason why memory latency wont be a significant issue).

Based on MS's performance this far I think they have turned the corner and are doing more right than wrong at this point.

My gaming money is between MS and Sony this gen, and I can honestly say I am not only giving MS serious considering, I am leaning that way. VGA support, HDD standard, Live are all very appealing. Basically it comes down to the games (I have some questions about support of certain franchises I enjoy a lot) and how 2nd/3rd gen hardware looks. I am an AA nut, and 720p will be my resolution of choice (1280x1024 8ms LCD) so if Xenos lives up to expecations (i.e. is competitive in the least) I may take the MS plunge. As a HUGE FPS gamer who really enjoys Halo I can say I feel very tempted... and part of that tempation is I have grown tired of this gen and they will be out first. MS has really impressed me with their total package--even though they will have chinks (everyone does) I think they have done a supurb job of minimizing them.

When Sony starts showing real games my enthusiasm may swing though. I am really impressed with the PS3 hardware so the issue is not power but more their online plans and what franchises, specifically FPS, will they have that will keep me happy. The no HDD standard is a big downer for me.

Anyhow, this is not a PS3 vs. Xbox360 issue. Just expressing my thoughts and opinions--not trying to bash anyone. I think both products will be EXCELLENT and gamers who buy either system will be VERY happy. I disclosed I am leaning toward the Xbox 360 right now (heh... Friday morning... may change by Monday!) so others how my devil's advocate thoughts does not mean I hate the system and think it is worthless. Just the opposite... but $300 systems will always have limitations. It just so happens MS has cut certain corners that could be considered weaknesses to certain consumers.

Anyhow, until the smoke settles I will be happy playing BF2 on the PC 8)

 

[deathstar121]

If indeed the xbox360 lacks HDMI connection, it'll be a big minus in my book.
Just as the lack of s-video in Game Cube has kept me form buying it this gen. I have limited connectibility options free in my TV and AV receiver, and because I refuse to use composite, and I refuse to add clutter with some scart divider, the only option for connecting a Game Cube would be s-video.
It might not sound like a big deal, but to me it has been the final smll stone that has tipped the scale just that much to be enough not to buy a Game Cube.

The same will happen with xbox360.
The next display I buy, possibly within the next two years, will be HD and will have one or more HDMI (or digital DVI).
Also the next AV reciver I buy will most likely have HDMI routing.

(ok, I probably wouldn't buy xbox360 even if it had HDMI, unless all the good games for some unexplainable reason came exclusively for xbox360. Halos, Forzas, PGRs etc. are just not enough to tip that scale )

Read hardocp article about xenos, the system does support HDMI, MS has decided not to have it right out of the box like sony, instead they opted to have the consumer buy a seperate piece for HDMI or DVI.

 

[jpr27]

I must say that every system does have it chinks in they system. My personal feeling on the Xbox 360 is the CPU cache as stated previously. 2Mb to 3Mb would of definately been preferred but concessions had to be made.

I look at it this way. If MS does hold true to the $300 price range and we now have a system that rivals some of the most powerful gaming computers of today (not to mention nice innovation in the GPU) then I'm not complaining. I could try and pick it apart but to me the future gaming potential for $300 (not including games and LIVE but you get the idea) is just to hard to argue with. So I will just smile and wait (patiently ) for the day it comes out and shows us the begining of what the next generation holds in store for us

***Just as a sidenote: I feel the same way about the PS3. Although if the price does come in at $400 - $500 then my smile wont be as large but it will be a smile non the less. ***

 

[Shifty Geezer]

:sigh: I did read Shifty's request, and if people read what I wrote very carefully I am very careful not to go "PS3 ownzers the Xbox 360" or any nonsense.

Trolls are pretty illiterate. Mentioning 'the other console' = bashing.

I think most people would agree that any device, in a vacuum with no competition, has no chinks. Chinks in armour are only relevent when someone is poking at them

Very true!!

I apologize to Shifty if my post derailed his thread.

Derailed? Look at it! We've had, what, 2 whole pages of intelligent opinions, and even now after a minor trolls invasion there's on-topic points being raised. The S/N ratio of these thread is 10x that of the forum's average. I class it as a great success