What are the chinks in XB360's armour?

[Megadrive1988]

I am not complaining, but things I wanted for the second generation Xbox:

16 to 32 MB eDRAM. Sony's GS I-32 (used in GSCube, not in PS2) has 32 MB eDRAM. I would've love that much in Xenos. but of course, die-size, heat, cost, etc. made that not-feasible.


main memory bandwidth: 256-bit memory bus interface, and the originally reported 51.2 GB/sec bandwidth (TeamXbox, 2003)
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/4811/First-Details-Inside-the-Xbox-2-Part-1
instead of the 22.4 GB/sec (first reported in early 2004) from a 128-bit bus


2 or 3 MB of L2 cache on the CPU. 2 MB would've been nice, 3 MB ( 1 MB per core) would've been fantastic


1 GigaByte / 1024 MB of lower latency main memory. with the high-bandwidth that I mentioned above, but with less delay times that Gamecube has with its 1T-RAM. what type of RAM could provide these capabilities? 1T-SRAM is low-latency but from what I understand, not particularly high-bandwidth. and GDDR3 is just the opposite?

 

[MechanizedDeath]

DaveB: What's the latency on MEMEXPORT? Also, can it be used for render-to-texture? I'm curious to know how that's all handled by Xenos. PEACE.

 

[Guden Oden]

Only real chinks I can think of are (and I know some of these have been discussed previously in the thread):

*CPU bandwidth. Only half of RAM bandwidth in either read or write performance. Probably won't make any noticeable difference in reality though; just mentioning it for the sake of it.

*CPU cache of course... 1MB split between SIX threads, with part of it possibly locked off for use by the GPU... Hardly ideal. Then I wonder about associativity level too, if it's high, a small cache size won't be as much of a problem, but apparantly high associativity scales poorly with clock speed so this might be a problem considering the chip runs at 3.2giga. Also, IBM chips have typically not had very high associativity levels either.

*I/O, or rather, lack of thereof. Three USB ports, hmm, well, OK. Means only two players on corded controllers in a multiplayer scenario if the camera is plugged in also. After all, some people don't like wireless controllers, and having to keep charged batteries around for them when they wanna play. Also, no digital video out. Will limit the console's usefulness with advanced flatpanel displays and surround receivers. Is there a standard TOSLINK optical out on x360, or is one confined to using the multi-out port and microsoft's I/O cable bundles?

*Speaking of I/O and sound... With the lack of dedicated processing hardware for this, there's the risk sound might take a step back. Whilst purely software-driven sound has the possibility of a wider range of possible effects, if they have to be programmed as opposed to simply flipped on in a hardware register, it's likely they won't be programmed at all. Also, if a title is CPU-limited already, it's unlikely advanced sound is going to be particulary high on the priority list.

Edit:
With this in mind though, I have to say x360 looks like a reeeally well-designed and highly balanced piece of hardware (which sort of sucks for me actually because I despise microsoft! :lol). The real-world performance is likely to be quite high I think, and I will probably buy one when I can afford it.

 

[Edge]

10. MS is far too focused on protecting the PC
Type: A, B, & C
Why?: MS has a multi-Billion dollar business to protect. The game console is an extension of their dominance--not a replacement. MS took a shot at Sony'b bow last gen by entering the console race. This gen, Sony is not being shy: PS3 IS A COMPUTER. Media ports, IP cameras, Linux and a HDD, large optical storage, fairly standard high end GPU, lots of memory, and a ton of games. If Sony can offer a killer game machine + offer basic PC services like email, browser support, music, video editing, movie watching, etc... they could convince some consumers to opt NOT to get a cheap PC for those same purposes. Make no mistake: PS3 and CELL is a platform that will evolve to the PS4 and beyond.
My guess: I don't think it will pan out exactly how Sony wants. Specifically their online service will be a weak point in my guestimation. But that said, a PS3 that can do email, browse the net, and other basic PC tasks + play games and watch HD movies could pull some PC users. MS, on the other hand, seems to be careful not to blur the distinction. Xbox 360 is a media extender but NOT the core. The problem is Sony is moving into this territory. MS, who needs to preserve their billion dollar industry, has no interest in selling a lot of Xbox 360s--at a lost--and including a nice OS when they can just sell an OS for profit on the PC. Ultimately I believe MS will give some in this area and the Xbox 360 will get a larger HDD and more basic PC tasks. They have already talked about Video Chat, MSN like chat services, etc... Email, a browser, and some other basic PC tasks I think are destined to the device. I think Sony will force MS's hand here. Also, I believe MS and Sony are talking up their goals. MS does not want to talk about PC-tasks too much because of image. It must be about the games. On the other hand, Sony wants to get out of the "games only" image so they are talking about their other goals (again.... ahem). While I do not think Sony will reach all their goals, on the other hand I believe MS will have to be VERY VERY VERY careful. I think they will blunt the charge from Sony, but I do not see them, at least not yet, closing the door. I think MS will wait until Xbox 3, when they can come up with a profitable financial model, to begin targeting more PC like tasks. But I see Sony very dangerous here, and it may be MS biggest weakness. Odd how a companies biggest strength could also be a hinderance.
Weight: 10 out of 10 (10 being most)

Acert93, excellent post!!! The above statement by you is the best. I could not agree more. MS is in the console race only to protect their Windows monopoly, as they saw as consoles get more powerful, it so much easier for them to branch out in other areas, like home computing. Because of the internet (everywhere and more important as time goes on), the role of the computer is more about communications, than past tasks like wordprocessing, etc. The internet, and game consoles being more than game consoles, is a bigger threat to MS core income stream than anything else before.

Again, well thought out, and very good post.

 

[Inane_Dork]

Every potential shortcoming I've seen in the system has at least one reasonable argument going against it. So there's nothing wrong as far as I am concerned until developers actually start running into the boundaries frequently.

 

[jvd]

would have liked to see 14.1 megs of edram . 720p would have fit into 2 titles and 1080i would have fit into 3 tiles with 4xfsaa .

 

[Megadrive1988]

Xbox 360 has so many things going for it. I'm thinking about just the hardware at this point. not marketing or even actual games.

Xbox 360 seems to have less 'chinks' than PS2, Gamecube and original Xbox.


most of us could easily point out severe or significant downsides in each of the current console architectures:

PS2's extremely demanding/difficult programming. lacking enough graphics-specific memory. lack of sufficient CPU caches, missing rendering features that should've been in GS. smallest rendering core in terms of actual logic transistors (~12M compared to ~26M in Flipper and over 60 million in NV2A) lack of built-in harddrive

Gamecube's smallest amount of fast main memory, only has 1 T&L functional block solely dedicated to geometry/lighting compared to 2 each in the other consoles (PS2's 2 VUs, Xbox's 2 vertex shaders). lack of built-in harddrive. smallest amount of disc space. lack of seperate, dedicated audio processor, the audio DSP takes up space and transistors of Flipper.

Xbox's complete lack of embedded graphics memory, the most bottlenecked system because everything has to go through the main memory bus, not much CPU L2 cache compared to Gamecube's CPU, or even a standard Pentium3, lowest usable fillrate in practice (not lowest peak) because of the lack of on-chip framebuffer / edram.


ok I don't feel like arguing about the strengths and weaknesses of the current consoles...I *know* some of you guys will differ with me on these, but my point is, there seems to be no severe weaknesses in the 360's architecture, at least from what has been revealed so far.

 

[ninelven]

erased

 

[blakjedi]

In addition a to what I stated earlier...;-)

Lack of DVI/HDMI - Honestly every device is going digital output - Cable and satellite boxes, PC cards.. so its just non-sensical to not have it.

I thought the G70 (as opposed to the RSX) had a 700 MHZ core for some reason.

 

[Sean*O]

Is there any reason why MS could not make a DVI output cable? I think the 360 will use the same custom pin connector that the Xbox had. Would it not be possible to output to a DVI cable from this port?

 

[Guden Oden]

I think the 360 will use the same custom pin connector that the Xbox had. Would it not be possible to output to a DVI cable from this port?

The xb multi-out port is analog in nature, as is x360 multi-out (the two possibly the same; uncertain at this point). DVI is digital. It would be pointless (and difficult) to properly convert between the two, and it would reduce video quality too with another conversion step.

 

[Megadrive1988]

I thought the G70 (as opposed to the RSX) had a 700 MHZ core for some reason.

it appears that the G70 core clockspeed is not much higher than GeForce 6800 Ultra. it's main raw performance increase seems to be coming from additional vertex shaders (2 more: 8 total) and pixel pipelines ( 8 more: 24 total)

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

gosh - at the risk of sounding rude, read the first post in this thread, and then push off

In all fairness, if Acert had taken that same advice, gosh's reply wouldn't be a comparison of systems, either. Acert was the first to compare the X360 to the PS3 (despite your requests otherwise), and the gosh responded. What? No admonishment for Acert?

I sincerely wish gosh hadn't deemed it necessary to quote Acert's ENTIRE message thought!

As far as chinks in the armor of the X360 go, the Edram issue is important but kind of amusing.. instead of praising the Xenos for having embedded ram (not seen since when?) we're bashing them for not having enough??

Can somebody clarify the purpose of having HD quality titles when/if the X360 only outputs in analog? That seems to make no sense to me.

Gigabit Ethernet.. uhh... why not? Sheesh, these things come "free" now with almost every mobo you buy and have for over a year. I agree that seriously hurts its ability as a multi-media hub.

Launch titles: I said it after the E3 presentation. No launch purchase of an X360 for me. The titles simply won't be available and the ones that will be sure don't look like anything more than current generation ports. No thanks. Like Acert said however, if EA can actually do something with Madden and have it available at launch, that one game might be all the X360 needs to last 6 months or so.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

In all fairness, if Acert had taken that same advice, gosh's reply wouldn't be a comparison of systems, either. Acert was the first to compare the X360 to the PS3 (despite your requests otherwise), and the gosh responded. What? No admonishment for Acert?

Acert realised his comments were misplaced and apologized. He also wasn't spouting nonsense like...

3) Consumers feel nickled and dimeD at paying 299? I wonder how they will feel when paying 475 for PS3

...which totally misses Acert's point of continuing fees and throws in a spurious PS3 pricepoint founded on goodness-knows-what theories.

However, you are right in that Acert shouldn't really have made mention of PS3 (something I didn't pick up very strongly as I mostly skimmed through his points) so here's a smacked hand and 'don't do it again' for Acert

 

[Rockster]

Is it correct to say that in terms of eDram usage / Tile count, that 720p w/ 4xAA @ 32bit color is equivalent to 720p w/ 2xAA @ FP16 color, but the latter only runs at half the fillrate?

 

[Shogmaster]

Can somebody clarify the purpose of having HD quality titles when/if the X360 only outputs in analog? That seems to make no sense to me.

Because digital output only benefits fixed pixel displays (LCDs, DLPs, etc..), and games look less than great on those (black levels especially), so who cares!

CRTs 4 life yo! I'm gonna play my X360 on my 19" Sony Aperture Grille monitor via the VGA connection, and actually enjoy the games when devs decide to go all dark and moody with the graphics, instead of jacking the brightness way up just to see what's going on, as was the case with my friend's 46" DLP!

 

[Avon_Implosion]

<Non sense SNIPPED>

1) Most people dont need higher BW than that on thier internet. its useless for a console in most cases

2) You have got to kidding me about launch software. It has probably one of the strongest launch software lineup in gaming history.

3) Consumers feel nickled and dimeD at paying 299? I wonder how they will feel when paying 475 for PS3

4) 1080p is not needed until XBox 3

5) MS is playing it smart. Its primarily a software company and wants Windows to support whichever format will win, so its not supporting any outright

6) Developers always complain about memory latency, it doesnt effect system at all

7) MoreDevelopers than Xbox 1 are supporting Microsoft, Plain and Simple

8) No comment, thats stupid

9) Thats even more stupid

10) The Console is not a PC, and Console users want it that way, so the stupidest was left at the end
[/b]

Acert93 got royally owned. 8)

hey, dont start that shit.

 

[gurgi]

Are we really reduced to joke accounts?

 

[Titanio]

Did someone really just register an account to express perceived "ownage" in an argument they're not a part of?

Oh wait..something tells me the latter part of that question may not be so true..

 

[ninelven]

erased