Water tech *spawn

[Neb]

I have shown moving images for KZ3's water and 22m waves in real life. People can see they look VERY close to each other. I'm not sure what some of you are trying to accomplish, by saying otherwise.

Then you must be referring to water movement alone becouse there is a world of difference regarding surface and detail.

BTW, I remember you holding up the beach waves in Crysis because of the big waves on the beach. Of course, the effect is only for a few meters. Then, the water goes placid. :smile:

Sorry but misinformation wont help you. It is a minimum of 64x64m grid with FFT and the geometry packed is around 200-300k polygons per frame with LOD active.

 

[patsu]

There was a complete trailer done with CG, showing battle scenes and Visari talking. Axis animation was the studio, the same that did the E3 2005 trailer.

If I remember correctly, that's the intro CG that people talked about (The one with Visari talking). The other cutscenes should be in-game.

Then you must be referring to water movement alone becouse there is a world of difference regarding surface and detail.

What details and surfaces are you looking for ?

 

[Neb]

What details and surfaces are you looking for ?

The videos you and others linked to.

 

[patsu]

What specific details (that is important) though ? That's turbulent real life water afterall. They can always spend more resources to make the digital waves more like it, but they have to stop somewhere.

I believe the KZ3 video also shows giant waves crashing against the rigs. The water seems pretty "expressive" so far.

The KZ2 Beachhead map has some blurring effect due to the heavy rain. Sometimes, it makes aiming rather difficult but also immersive. One of the things I'm not sure is how would stereoscopic 3D "tolerate" these blurring effects. *If* they add in the misty look because we are so close to the waves, most of the details will be lost anyway (in a somewhat "random" manner).

 

[London Geezer]

Bloody hell... would NOT have wanted to be on that ship! i feel sick just looking at the video!

 

[patsu]

Bloody hell... would NOT have wanted to be on that ship! i feel sick just looking at the video!

When I visited Pattaya, Thailand decades ago, the sea was just a little rough visually; but strong wind was blowing at a constant speed non-stop at the beach. I don't know what the windspeed was but it's a little intense. Everyone's loose jacket and tie were "fixed" at 90 degrees to his body.

They had boats with glass bottom to see the tropical fish and corals underneath. Unfortunately within 5 seconds I landed on the boat, I immediately threw up and hit the floor.

Imagine being on a boat that bobs a couple of storeys up and down. @_@

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Then you must be referring to water movement alone becouse there is a world of difference regarding surface and detail.


Sorry but misinformation wont help you. It is a minimum of 64x64m grid with FFT and the geometry packed is around 200-300k polygons per frame with LOD active.

Watch the water go placid in the video below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxlbF2EDhcg&feature=related

Misinformation? I thought that's what you might be trying to peddling in here.

Edit: Here is a better KZ3 water gif.

http://i48.tinypic.com/23sx9gl.gif

 

[nightshade]

I'd definitely choose the KZ3 look over Crysis' eventhough its technically worse.
The Crysis one just doesn't looks natural in any way.

 

[London Geezer]

It's all about design choices versus technical achievements. You can make something look really nice even using less advanced technology. We've been through this, how many times??

 

[nightshade]

We've been through this, how many times??

x infinitum times actually ....but everything comes back to this regardless.

 

[Neb]

I have shown moving images for KZ3's water and 22m waves in real life. People can see they look VERY close to each other. I'm not sure what some of you are trying to accomplish, by saying otherwise.

Then you must be referring to water movement alone becouse there is a world of difference regarding surface and detail.

BTW, I remember you holding up the beach waves in Crysis because of the big waves on the beach. Of course, the effect is only for a few meters. Then, the water goes placid. :smile:

Sorry but misinformation wont help you. It is a minimum of 64x64m grid with FFT and the geometry packed is around 200-300k polygons per frame with LOD active.

Watch the water go placid in the video below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxlbF2EDhcg&feature=related

Misinformation? I thought that's what you might be trying to peddling in here.

Perhaps mathematics is not your strength. Rewatch video, take note to position and then think about the bolded parts in each quote. Now who is the one spreading misinformation?

EDIT: I'll clarify that the min part in my quote reffers that atleast 64x64m will be 3D but it might be a way bigger area with 3D water. It all is dependant on the wave amount and thus scales 3D water area depeding on amount of waves present and size. The more and smaller then down to 64x64m grid. Fewer big waves then 256x256m or even bigger.

Edit: Here is a better KZ3 water gif.

http://i48.tinypic.com/23sx9gl.gif

I've seen the video.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/s3ntry93/4693904719/sizes/o/in/set-72157624155993058/

 

[Neb]

I'd definitely choose the KZ3 look over Crysis' eventhough its technically worse.
The Crysis one just doesn't looks natural in any way.

Well that video is custom map so that goes for it but otherwise the thing is not just about technical merit but also representing a detailed and believable 'surface animation'. The KZ3 water besides animation has the look of solid terrain mass in movement. In stills one could believe it was terrain!
Also if you watch the video then you will notice some of the water wave tops, how they split and go up down in several parts. Quite some of the 'It's like mountains rising up independantly of water mass movement' from flatter surface like if with some terrain editor brush. But each top their own.

 

[nightshade]

Well that video is custom map so that goes for it but otherwise the thing is not just about technical merit but also representing a detailed and believable 'surface animation'. The KZ3 water besides animation has teh look of solid terrain in movement. Also if you watch the video then you will notice the water wave tops, how they split and go up down in several parts. 'water on the moon syndrome'? Quite bizzare.

I wasn't actually referring to that particular video, should've made it clearly
Its just that I simply don't like how the the sea water in Crysis is so transparent & clean looking & so less "foamy". The KZ3 water is definitely opaque but its just more believable in that you don't really get clear/ transparent looking water when its moving so vigorously. Surely it could do with some more advanced tech but we are limited by that aren't we ?

Also KZ3 is set in Helghan...so there's always an explanation for weird things

 

[Neb]

I wasn't actually referring to that particular video, should've made it clearly
Its just that I simply don't like how the the sea water in Crysis is so transparent & clean looking & so less "foamy".

Thats alright though it comforms to what to expect from such location in movement and surface detail. An interesting part would be the fleet level where there is darker rougher ocean water.

The KZ3 water is definitely opaque but its just more believable in that you don't really get clear/ transparent looking water when its moving so vigorously. Surely it could do with some more advanced tech but we are limited by that aren't we ?

It works.

Also KZ3 is set in Helghan...so there's always an explanation for weird things

I guess that is a good excuse!

 

[patsu]

Well that video is custom map so that goes for it but otherwise the thing is not just about technical merit but also representing a detailed and believable 'surface animation'. The KZ3 water besides animation has the look of solid terrain mass in movement. In stills one could believe it was terrain!

If you pause the Youtube video, you would not see any surface animation also. The media is meant to be consumed as a video or game.

Also if you watch the video then you will notice some of the water wave tops, how they split and go up down in several parts. Quite some of the 'It's like mountains rising up independantly of water mass movement' from flatter surface like if with some terrain editor brush. But each top their own.

No CG can triumph real-life water. If you look at the KZ3 trailer @ 0.42s, you can see the ocean waves thrashing against the rigs. I'd be surprised if people don't recognize that as an ocean even in static shot.

Also, the Youtube video was shot from the ship. The ship itself will cause more waves and disturbance from the camera's perspective. In the KZ3 one, the camera is flying above the ocean.

Thats alright though it comforms to what to expect from such location in movement and surface detail. An interesting part would be the fleet level where there is darker rougher ocean water.

Yes. It is not alright in KZ3 though. I don't think they can be used in the KZ3 scene at all.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Perhaps mathematics is not your strength. Rewatch video, take note to position and then think about the bolded parts in each quote. Now who is the one spreading misinformation?

EDIT: I'll clarify that the min part in my quote reffers that atleast 64x64m will be 3D but it might be a way bigger area with 3D water. It all is dependant on the wave amount and thus scales 3D water area depeding on amount of waves present and size. The more and smaller then down to 64x64m grid. Fewer big waves then 256x256m or even bigger.

Actually, mathematics is my strength. Please tell me what number does "few" not cover. Perhaps, it is not your strength. Like I said before, the waves in that Crysis video stops after a short distance. That completely ruins the effect, IMO. The immersive atmosphere is destroyed as a result. Killzone 3 waves looks very natural (like the 22m waves video shows) and continues the immersive environment. That's what's most important.

I've seen the video.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/s3ntry93/4693904719/sizes/o/in/set-72157624155993058/

Maybe you need to see it on a continued loop until KZ3 releases. Watch it so intensely that you won't have time to post in this thread 'til April.

 

[London Geezer]

I wasn't actually referring to that particular video, should've made it clearly
Its just that I simply don't like how the the sea water in Crysis is so transparent & clean looking & so less "foamy". The KZ3 water is definitely opaque but its just more believable in that you don't really get clear/ transparent looking water when its moving so vigorously. Surely it could do with some more advanced tech but we are limited by that aren't we ?

Also KZ3 is set in Helghan...so there's always an explanation for weird things

Totally agree. This has nothing to do with KZ or Crysis: When the ocean is so stormy as to have those massive waves, the water is not super reflective and transparent - which is what gives away that CG look as it's too perfect. In such conditions the water looks like a big dark blue mass with little reflections, lots of foam, and most definitely you can't see through it.
This is why the KZ water looks more realistic, regardless that it's just a big fat polygon with a simple texture slapped on, or whatever it is. While most other 'waters' in videogames are so super reflective (under any condition) that they look more like oil or mercury.
Water is very reflective and see-through only under very determined conditions, not all the time.

Anyway... Back to KZ3, as much as i wasn't crazy about KZ2, i might just have to get this one too!

 

[Neb]

[

Actually, mathematics is my strength. Please tell me what number does "few" not cover. Perhaps, it is not your strength. Like I said before, the waves in that Crysis video stops after a short distance. That completely ruins the effect, IMO. The immersive atmosphere is destroyed as a result. Killzone 3 waves looks very natural (like the 22m waves video shows) and continues the immersive environment. That's what's most important.

Obviously not as 'a few meters' is not equal to 64x64-256x256m. No need to give rubberband answers, just do the math and it will be fine. Anyway custom video, custo msettings, as the waves otherwise blends in very smoothly at end of grid edges/tip due to more balanced settings. Also The KZ3 water mesh scales down until it go flacid at some distance if you watch the video.

Anyway the point was made, so there is nothing more to say about this. :smile:

Maybe you need to see it on a continued loop until KZ3 releases. Watch it so intensely that you won't have time to post in this thread 'til April.

Sorry but I have no interest in being brainwashed by that "well" known method.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Seems to me this whole debate is at a ridiculous cross-purpose, and now people are getting shirty (me included!). Someone said, "it looks good," and from that we're comparing images of rough nseas and calm waters and talking technical differences without understanding what the original 'looks good' opinion was founded on! My take? The rough sea-water looks like rough sea water as no other game has tried to create, or certainly no game Lucid-Dreamer had seen. End of. That was the innocuous start to all this. If no-one said, "Killzone 3's water has the greatest geometric detail of any water," or, "the surface and volumetric shading of KZ3's water is better than any other," or "KZ3's water physics are unequalled across games," why did the thread get so derailed to different games offering differing water models in different styles, none of which are comparable to was KZ3 is trying to do?

IMO, KZ3's water does an excellent job of representing a North Sea swell, dull and grey and solid. It's not got the highest texture detail or geometry, but aesthetically it pulls off the look Guerilla were clearly after. If people want to go on thrashing how Game X has 4x the mesh density and displacement mapping and is viewed from a completely different angle in completely different weather conditions and being a completely different part of the world, here's the place to do it, but not the game thread.

 

[L. Scofield]

If no-one said, "Killzone 3's water has the greatest geometric detail of any water," or, "the surface and volumetric shading of KZ3's water is better than any other," or "KZ3's water physics are unequalled across games," why did the thread get so derailed to different games offering differing water models in different styles, none of which are comparable to was KZ3 is trying to do?

Mhhh...

Anyway, this is a huge leap. Supposedly, 10x the expansiveness in environment, HDR, better particle effects, better animations, the most incredible water, and 3D! Simply fascinating and it's just pre-alpha! Close to one year to go.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1438942&postcount=299