Water tech *spawn

[ps2rocks]

Also like the 3D water with detailed shading onsurface for Arma 2. The waves are quite big.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=1481

Well... not sure about this one either, you said so that ARMA-II ocean is 3D, I couldn't guess. In early June I got to play this game, saw it in Medium to Low settings at a laptop, photorealism at places was supereme, actually gave Crysis a big hit at places, sorry to see no vegetation stuff like in Crysis, and a mother-load of pop-ins(esp. with sniper). Knowing that this game has been in making for 10 years, boasts huge changeable draw-distance of visibility and goes for proper bullet and canon shooting projectile physics etc, I sure did check out the water and it was BLAND. The pics above showed good-shader but can't say 3D, even if it is, its really really low-poly mesh affair, really could say "quite big waves".

ARMA-II explosion in Water vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0NXWc-ImiE

Also when we came to it, I couldn't help myself comparing this to a console-game with the same "game design", not the same game but only the way things are executed more the same. That most unfortunate game is the bad-controls anomaly called "Lair". Damn it had immensely amazing tech behind it,

Like arma, "Lair" had:

*it had huge visibility world, actually 32 x 32 sq. km in some levels.

*Land your dragon anywhere to fight and then fly away, seamless transition to oceans.

*Vast number of physics simulations: Lair had everything from clouds, dust, smoke, fire, cloth, water and even fur on characters procedural and volumeric.

*It even had "Progressive Mesh" that kept improving real polygonal detail in the world as you draw near.

*2000 to 3000 characters on screen (actually unlike anything else out there), mostly standing but when you were upclose, they would attack and get destroyed with proper physical attributes.

*Every tree would get destroyed when battling in fields

*Complete shadowing model: even clouds cast shadows on everything, including individual model self-shadowing etc. etc.

That's more than a good track-record to compare it to ARMA2, but I also reckon Lair as having a sort of water-interactivity, mild it may seem for it was being developed as a PS3 launch title, but a 3D ocean(actually more 3D than ARMA at least is my guess, until you may please post a vid with ultra-high settings and huge waves etc) with real-time ripples is a big thing nonetheless

OK, Lair ocean at night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQp55_7XKjU

Lair ocean in first level:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6SWNPFb3GQ

Giant Snake moving through the ocean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzCkTgVVK88

You know, its a big thing they managed all that in a launch title(though delayed for six months).

 

[L. Scofield]

OK I don't know low res ripple-shader in U2, the point where Drake jumps into that swimming pool, it was like megaton kick-ass, totally can't make of low-res stuff

Any video of that?

 

[JB9861]

OK I don't know low res ripple-shader in U2, the point where Drake jumps into that swimming pool, it was like megaton kick-ass, totally can't make of low-res stuff, and also that having a 80k character model in there with other physics flying around and huge draw-distances, tangible vegetation in really amazing looking jungle etc etc, and especially that organic-collision-deformation like "moving-platforms" with shifting physics...

Drake's count stays in the 30s during cutscene/gameplay as I recall. They raise other characters, but tbh I can't really notice a difference between Drake and the supporting cast. Kratos is on the light side and catches my eye more than games like Mass Effect and Uncharted that dedicate a bit more. Anyway there's also that vista before you go underground with Sully and the girl that you could throw in there along with the train.

 

[Trejser]

Drake's count stays in the 30s during cutscene/gameplay as I recall. They raise other characters, but tbh I can't really notice a difference between Drake and the supporting cast. Kratos is on the light side and catches my eye more than games like Mass Effect and Uncharted that dedicate a bit more. Anyway there's also that vista before you go underground with Sully and the girl that you could throw in there along with the train.

~37k with no LOD.

Water in UC series is amazing, I really don't care if the ripples are shader or poly based, the best looking water on consoles IMO. It's probably the only example (on consoles) of water with good reflections, refraction and ripples.

Other games with good water:

Gears of War 2 - good riples but no reflections
Assassin's Creed 2 - good reflections (and artstyle, looks like a paiting) but water is completly static
Halo 3 - good ripples but no reflections
MGS4 - same as above (and IMO ripples are slighty better than those in H3)
Ratchet:CiT - great ripples (R2 tech) but no reflections

Nebula: What console game have the best water in your opinion?

 

[Neb]

OK I don't know low res ripple-shader in U2, the point where Drake jumps into that swimming pool, it was like megaton kick-ass, totally can't make of low-res stuff,...

It's plain obvious if you look at some of the previous U2 videos you linked to. The riple shader resolution is quite low creating blurred "jaggied" ripples. See Oblivion shader ripples for similar results although Oblivions ripple resolution is even lower.

and also that having a 80k character model in there with other physics flying around and huge draw-distances, tangible vegetation in really amazing looking jungle etc etc, and especially that organic-collision-deformation like "moving-platforms" with shifting physics...

Characters dont have 80k polys. If you search this "polygoncount thread" you will find Drake is 'LOD0' 37k, the rest is lower except chick (~45k, first LOD). Physics is very limited, not that it needs it for it's design, barely any plants react ot either wind or collision and top polygon count is ~1.2m/frame according to dev/document.

its a wonder they even bothered about considering water interactions(more questions for Valve being on PC)[/B] and damn that U2 water with real-time reflections, proper transparency and that 'ripple' effects is certainly a 1up+, obviously questioning what Valve and lots of other PC devs have been doing with so called ultra-powerful GPUs except higher resolutions.

Take a look at PC games. You got lots of examples some several years old with excellent water. The water quality in U2 is actually kinda standard in several games years old on PC, even RTS games. It's not just higher resolution in games, it so much more but to see it you cant ignore it which you seem to since you've been given lots of examples before but ignored them. Also 360 got very nice water in several games but again unless you decouple yourself from almost exclusively focusing on PS2/PS3 games you wont get a proper reference.

Also I do wonder why even that low-res, static reflection using cubemap and awful shading as in that train sequence of U2 is not employed in any PC big-hitters for the ocean... even when everyone points out the blandness of a lot of 'em there?

Becouse it is last-gen material by PC standard. It's almost a shame to have such quality so they have better, much better (with some exceptions for some games). Heck I would think it is not desirable in console games either but you have to cutdown somewhere with larger water areas and detailed environment.

 

[Neb]

Nebula: What console game have the best water in your opinion?

Far Cry Preadtor (IIRC the name) on 360 has top notch water with waves. Thats a favorite. MGS4 also had nice water, ripple shading atleast at river.

 

[Neb]

Well... not sure about this one either, you said so that ARMA-II ocean is 3D, I couldn't guess. In early June I got to play this game, saw it in Medium to Low settings at a laptop, photorealism at places was supereme,...

Read what you wrote yourself. Then think a bit about it.

Anwyay yes it does have 3D water for all ocean water with fairly big waves with nice shading for surface to give extra surface detail etc. It is also rendered for a quite large distance with transparency which makes it fairly costly.

actually gave Crysis a big hit at places, sorry to see no vegetation stuff like in Crysis, and a mother-load of pop-ins(esp. with sniper). Knowing that this game has been in making for 10 years, boasts huge changeable draw-distance of visibility and goes for proper bullet and canon shooting projectile physics etc, I sure did check out the water and it was BLAND.

It all is dependant on settings, since you saw it at low/medium dont expect no pop-ups or best quality to be shown.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1452217&postcount=1476
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1452219&postcount=1477
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1452843&postcount=1481

The pics above showed good-shader but can't say 3D, even if it is, its really really low-poly mesh affair, really could say "quite big waves".

Not that low poly since the wave rolls are smooth but not insanely high either. I find it though amazing you cant say if it is 3D but yet comment on the polygon count for it?

ARMA-II explosion in Water vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0NXWc-ImiE

You can see the waves roll in 3D...

..but I also reckon Lair as having a sort of water-interactivity, mild it may seem for it was being developed as a PS3 launch title, but a 3D ocean(actually more 3D than ARMA at least is my guess, until you may please post a vid with ultra-high settings and huge waves etc) with real-time ripples is a big thing nonetheless

Actually Arma 2's water mesh looks much like Lairs but perhaps mapping is higher res.

You know, its a big thing they managed all that in a launch title(though delayed for six months).

F5 has always been good at coding. To bad no other game has outdone it on the PS3 in scope. Though not that is was the bench either with the horrible LODing, lighting, cutdowns and unstable framerate. I guess GTAIV/RDR is the closest. This is though OT and not part of water techtalk.

 

[nightshade]

Far Cry Preadtor (IIRC the name) on 360 has top notch water with waves..

But its absolutely non interactive

 

[Neb]

But its absolutely non interactive

Indeed but that doesn't mean it looks bad becouse of that. The 3D water is well done, well detailed and animates in an excellent way. Water doesn't have to be interactible as in mesh deformations to be good.

 

[ps2rocks]

It's plain obvious if you look at some of the previous U2 videos you linked to. The riple shader resolution is quite low creating blurred "jaggied" ripples. See Oblivion shader ripples for similar results although Oblivions ripple resolution is even lower.

Really??? still can't say anything on it, jaggied meaning aliasing stuff? blurred means fuzzy or something? can't say anything about it. I believe you superimposed that train-scene flat ocean waves to the rest of the game but anyways can you elaborate what's exactly all that with this little scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87h3yRqL2KE

Becouse it is last-gen material by PC standard. It's almost a shame to have such quality so they have better, much better (with some exceptions for some games). Heck I would think it is not desirable in console games either but you have to cutdown somewhere with larger water areas and detailed environment.

Really??? Please can you name a few here. I can clearly see ARMA2 water (and yeah I'm not talking about ARMA1 and yeah its 2010 vs 2006) not anything bigger or greater than LAIR with all that "cutdown somewhere", actually it looks worse and doesn't even gets touched with interactive ripples or else, and we can't take "Oh its old-gen for PC so they're not doing it" seriously, heh. PC's more resolution or texture details accounts for more memory, not more processing power obviously, for its quite scalable on 4 years old consoles

Some amazing Lair 3D ocean shots by cam:
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/ayrfqd.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/az8etc.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/oktues.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/33kakoh.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/14kekhi.jpg
and yeah found another one:
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/xo0b5j.jpg

Take a look at PC games. You got lots of examples some several years old with excellent water. The water quality in U2 is actually kinda standard in several games years old on PC, even RTS games. It's not just higher resolution in games, it so much more but to see it you cant ignore it which you seem to since you've been given lots of examples before but ignored them. Also 360 got very nice water in several games but again unless you decouple yourself from almost exclusively focusing on PS2/PS3 games you wont get a proper reference.

Again, need some examples, and I do understand in RTS you don't have all that hi-poly stuff going on all around you so you can, but even those I don't know of any on PCs for R2/U2 thwarting water-techs. I'd love to know some that are doing as many types of gameplays or poly-counts or collision-deformation levels with shifting physics as U2 (U2 train lvl in mountains, collapsing building or Kratos on Gaya and Cronos body) AND still has water effects...

Moreover, you are right 360 has some good examples with water though games-wise they never managed to touch up PS3 exclusives tech-wise. Halo 3 is good but ripples have nothing to do with rest of the water, they appear above it and dissipate quickly, without any reflections and H3 also not has much in rest of the fidelity at all... Gears 2 has same flat surface interaction effect as U2 though no transparency or reflections and ripples dissipate super-quick. Rest of it is old gen non-interactive affair(like most PC games water FX that I know of). The only thing 1st Xbox had over PS2 were Res & Textures, while in terms of game-design, physics or capabilities, PS2's limited H/W has done untouchable wonders, even by PC standards of that time.


Also in U2 "Broken Paradise" stage, the water is fully 3D, can watch it wobbling on walls and stairs etc. and transparency and refractions are top-notch(better to watch in 480p for clarity):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejQmqFLAU34


On a side-note, White Knight Chronicles has some of the prettiest shader water by any PC or Console standards:
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/wkcDSC04354.jpg
another:
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/wkcDSC04352.jpg

 

[N_B]

Really??? still can't say anything on it, jaggied meaning aliasing stuff? blurred means fuzzy or something? can't say anything about it. I believe you superimposed that train-scene flat ocean waves to the rest of the game but anyways can you elaborate what's exactly all that with this little scene:

Yes Uncharted 2 has no one size fits all effect, but different effects for different situations. Open vistas like train sequence, get paired back reflections and less accurate ripples:

http://a.imageshack.us/img202/2366/uncharted2amongthieves2c.jpg

(Seems to be some level of detail though, get closer and more mountain reflections pop up)

Another considerably less impressive fake reflections (only in one area of one MP map)

http://a.imageshack.us/img195/697/uncharted2amongthieves4x.jpg

A general lower res and lesser shaders MP effect:

http://a.imageshack.us/img43/8547/uncharted2amongthieves5h.jpg

And a generally higher quality version:

http://a.imageshack.us/img25/676/uncharted2amongthievesb.jpg

And in the single player there are additional effects for the lighting storm waters at the end of the game, and glacier like-waters on the mountaintop level.
Usually, the low res ripples are only noticable if you're looking directly overhead.

 

[Neb]

Really??? still can't say anything on it, jaggied meaning aliasing stuff? blurred means fuzzy or something? can't say anything about it. I believe you superimposed that train-scene flat ocean waves to the rest of the game but anyways can you elaborate what's exactly all that with this little scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87h3yRqL2KE

Hard to see any detail at all in that scene. But just watch the U2 videos with river water you linked to some time ago in this thread. No need to try to linger around it, you posted the video link yourself.

Really??? Please can you name a few here. I can clearly see ARMA2 water (and yeah I'm not talking about ARMA1 and yeah its 2010 vs 2006) not anything bigger or greater than LAIR with all that "cutdown somewhere", actually it looks worse and doesn't even gets touched with interactive ripples or else,...

There have already been several examples named in this thread, with pics and even videos to. About bigger you seem to just go through numbers or words without taking into account of what level of quality. FSX on PC has the whole world as map, 180km view distance at each direction and millions of polygons per frame rendered with 3D procedural clouds+weather, nice water shading, 24h lighting cycle, HDR etc etc etc. It still doesn't beat Arma 2 on a technical level nor look as good.

...and we can't take "Oh its old-gen for PC so they're not doing it" seriously, heh. PC's more resolution or texture details accounts for more memory, not more processing power obviously, for its quite scalable on 4 years old consoles

And you think all PC games got that make them excel is just higher texture res?

Look if your going to ignore everything outside the PS section then there is nothing to really talk about. Also this goes more OT.

Some amazing Lair 3D ocean shots by cam:

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/14kekhi.jpg

And that is about how Arma 2 water looks but a bit less disturbed. Also for proper view of shading and lighting on water post buffer/capture grabs not downscaled offscreen photos (no need to post I've played the game a bit and know already how it looks).

Again, need some examples, and I do understand in RTS you don't have all that hi-poly stuff going on all around you so you can, but even those I don't know of any on PCs for R2/U2 thwarting water-techs.

In RTS games you have lots of objects in your view so despite being usually lower in geoemtry detail than FPS games the sum ends up right next to them or even higher due to all objects to display. Tropico 3 on PC reaches around 7m polygons per frame , 360 about half that (see comment by Assen). It's all a mather of doing tradeoffs to get desirable visuals but on PC you obviously can have a far higher bar.

I'd love to know some that are doing as many types of gameplays or poly-counts or collision-deformation levels with shifting physics as U2 (U2 train lvl in mountains, collapsing building or Kratos on Gaya and Cronos body) AND still has water effects...

Your going wildly OT in a what seems desperate attempt to glory PS games/platform. Your taking what is moderate things in moderate low quantities/scripted/baked and trying to glory it to be something immense. I mean every game with water has water effects in some form (some rare exception with static water texture). As you bring up a checklist one could easily say how many do dynamic godrays, deformable vegetation in quantity, advanced underwater rendering, 24h lighting cycle, etc etc.

Btw for 'pissing contest' -> I could tell you about a whole lot of PC games and some 360 games. Heck instead of derailing this thread more visit PC sreenshot thread. I am sure I got debug info for a lot of games there. Otherwise 3D center forum has some of my shots, even for their articles (PCgames.de).

Moreover, you are right 360 has some good examples with water though games-wise they never managed to touch up PS3 exclusives tech-wise.

Different priorities, different gameplays, different sacrifices, no clear answer as you would wish to think.

Halo 3 is good but ripples have nothing to do with rest of the water, they appear above it and dissipate quickly, without any reflections and H3 also not has much in rest of the fidelity at all...

Halo 3 water is deformation of water mesh, not spawned deformable mesh ontop of water layer. I am sure there are some good vids for H3, Reach showing it from waterline.

Gears 2 has same flat surface interaction effect as U2 though no transparency or reflections and ripples dissipate super-quick. Rest of it is old gen non-interactive affair(like most PC games water FX that I know of).

Like most PS3 games to.

The only thing 1st Xbox had over PS2 were Res & Textures, while in terms of game-design, physics or capabilities, PS2's limited H/W has done untouchable wonders, even by PC standards of that time.

Are you OK?

Also in U2 "Broken Paradise" stage, the water is fully 3D, can watch it wobbling on walls and stairs etc. and transparency and refractions are top-notch(better to watch in 480p for clarity):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejQmqFLAU34

In a very limited scenerio to render. More the water doesnt react to entities it just animated with minimal height differences (much like in some parts of Bioshock) and splashes is just simple texture layer. See no ripple shader effect.

On a side-note, White Knight Chronicles has some of the prettiest shader water by any PC or Console standards:
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/wkcDSC04354.jpg
another:
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/wkcDSC04352.jpg

Looks nice but pretty standard, can't say much more from pic and didn't see any video. See Sniper multiplatform game in screenshot thread.

But yes there are some great stuff and some lesser stuff but dont make it out to be more than it is and actually test or see other games outside of PS platform to get a good reference else it all comes down to what looks like worshipping and honestly it will just be wasted time.

Let's chill down man!

 

[AlNom]

*ahem* This is a tech thread, not a "let's downplay the other side and cry out your love".

 

[ps2rocks]

Yes Uncharted 2 has no one size fits all effect, but different effects for different situations.

Yes, and it sums up and accounts for almost every game in existance, yes even Crysis has extremely well done FX for vast open ocean, but simply a moving lined texture for ravines and even worse often a flat texture for water in cave-ins. It isn't much of a surprise really

And in the single player there are additional effects for the lighting storm waters at the end of the game, and glacier like-waters on the mountaintop level.
Usually, the low res ripples are only noticable if you're looking directly overhead.

Yeah, also the photomode for MP in Uncharted-2 is just insane, that lets you add up color-FX, depth-of-fields, visual curvatures to your real-time captured 3D images and all advanced post-processing on those images happens in real-time as well . A few pics from that photomode with additional FX around water are as follows:
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/xmq22q.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/20ie1c8.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/untitleddede.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/vhzudx.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/uncharted2amongthieves2ngh.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/qweqwe.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/1eovps.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/28rjvgn.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/uncharted2amongthieves5bvb.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp41/faitsoni/VGWater/poiuy.jpg

 

[L. Scofield]

Kameo's water is another good contestant. It has reflections, refractions and interactivity (actual mesh deformation).

Also, a couple of examples of Halo 3's water:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIagwgXEkOA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtQLoAFgvIY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg7MN5tlwgk&feature=related

 

[Sigfried1977]

^Really? I remember Kameo's water being completely flat to be honest. Gotta agree with Lair, though. Unless viewed from too close or too far away the waves really do look impressive. They did a really nice job with the white caps.

This one here I think is really impressive, because for a change water really does seem to behave like water: (project Dust)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHP1QAm2pHo

 

[Turok]

Gears 2 has same flat surface interaction effect as U2 though no transparency or reflections and ripples dissipate super-quick. Rest of it is old gen non-interactive affair(like most PC games water FX that I know of).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ8wAz9ykCk

You're giving Gears 2's water less credit than it deserves. That right there is definitely not a 2D ripple.

 

[AlNom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ8wAz9ykCk

You're giving Gears 2's water less credit than it deserves. That right there is definitely not a 2D ripple.

Yes, a GPU tessellated surface. There's the cut-scene with the water monster that shows the "3D" ness of it. Another area would be inside the giant worm when you sever the heart valves.

Batman AA also features one small area with the same sort of surface (that small flooded pool where the security guard gets electrocuted).

 

[ps2rocks]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ8wAz9ykCk

You're giving Gears 2's water less credit than it deserves. That right there is definitely not a 2D ripple.

Actually it IS a 2D ripple, how can I say? look at the shore rocks at the sides, it never gets wobbling up, and as Marcus goes down, you never see any parabolic wave height. Really can't see what AIStrong points at, GPU Tessellation? even the devs said they are doing interactive water 'surfaces' only. There was never a point of '3D'ness or esp. Tessellation connected with this sort of water of 2008 game:
"Also watch the above vid at 0:32 first and then from 2:25 onwards, no wobbling or 3D polygonal height waves with the environment"


Yes, AIStrong is right when saying that swamp monster stage, yes it seemed to have either extremely low-poly 3D mesh or no free flowing that it would get on your boat and goes down like a flat texture. Actually, this stuff has been done way back in past gen, don't you agree:

Watch this at 0:38 first and then 1:14 below, it passes right through the boat up rather than combining from sides, more like pushing the boat down a surface than raising the water level or any waves hitting at all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEgShnzAKZw

 

[ps2rocks]

Amazing procedural and volumetric WARHAWK ocean:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4fiCD3jSr8

Great stuff in an online title and so early in PS3's lifecycle (actually a first-gen title).