Unreal Engine 5, [UE5 Developer Availability 2022-04-05]
- Thread starter mpg1
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davis.anthony
Veteran
I can see the stuttering already 
It's necessary for certain things, not necessary for a transformative improvement over the previous gen.
INteresting how it is going straight to recreate the Prey 2 vibe and even gameplay mechanic. Ledge hanging while shooting was shown off in prey 2.
Right. We were promised dynamic probe based GI last generation and it never materialized. Lumen took it one step further and actually delivered. It’s a huge leap from the baked GI or flat lighting of previous games.
It’s therefore easy to look at Lumen and say wow that’s great we don’t need HWRT yet. That’s a very short-sighted view IMO. Firstly Lumen has very clearly documented limitations. We shouldn’t pretend that it does everything well. It is not a general purpose GI solution. More importantly the availability of RT hardware is a catalyst for ray/path tracing innovation and optimization that wouldn’t be possible without it. We should be ecstatic that we’re getting to see both paths evolve simultaneously and offer a bit of variety and competition.
HWRT is of course better, just not necessary to advance visuals far above the prior gen.
HWRT is important in the consoles if nothing else as training wheels for when it sees full use next-gen. But side-by-side, if you had one platform with HWRT and one without, the leap in visuals wouldn't be so constrained on the no-HWRT device to look dated or inferior.
This is nothing more than a testament to the brilliance of software developers in finding novel solutions, and I'm glad it's got the attention it needed to develop instead of going straight to HWRT and missing the compute-based software alternatives. I think the continued investment in developing software-solutions will be valuable in informing better practice of the hardware-assisted options, including designing better hardware.
Didn't driveclub use dynamic GI ?
No idea. What was the implementation in DriveClub? Dynamic GI certainly wasn’t prevalent. SVOGI and VXGI went nowhere.
Inuhanyou
Veteran
One of the best looking games of last gen imo. Still looks great to this day. A shame it is stuck in hell now
That's what i generally think as well. Clearly the consoles are not there yet for full path traced games. Hell many high end PCs aren't. And certain RT features and their quality despite being hw accelerated are still a trade off that needs to be considered based on the game being made and everything.
I have several questions for you Shifty or anyone who might know generally speaking.
1. Are solutions like UE4s doomed SVOGI and Cryteks new GI system similar attempts at the same thing as software lumen?
2. It seems the main drawback from software lumen in my eyes is that it's something unique to ue5. How likely is it that other devs will implement software GI based systems into their own engines this gen as opposed to going the traditional route with 1 or two RT features put on top?
3. In regards to software lumen, can individual raytraced effects that sw lumen may not be best at(reflective surfaces with models in them) be used in conjunction with sw lumen in ue5?
No, software based solutions are not worth it. Epic has created new problems and now they are trying to solve them instead of going the obvious way with HWRT. Now UE5 is so slow that reflections and direct lightning get shoved away. There isnt even any new advancements here. It gets more and more bloated with every new fancy software solution while efficiency gets worse.
DavidGraham
Veteran
They incorporated it into software global illumination and basic reflections for Crysis 1 Remastered and Crysis 2 Remastered, but also hardware accelerated them using hardware RT for increased quality. (Can it run Crysis settings + Expermintal RT Boost mode).
Consoles should have launched with hw rt and perhaps ML acceleration too. I feel that Epic had to tailor to the consoles (naturally) as it is a install base you dont want to leave behind.
Now UE5 is still mighty impressive but not the leap we could have had if things were more current hw wise. Faster cpus than 3.5ghz wouldve solved things too as RT is quite cpu heavy.
Still, UE supports HW RT too and things look bettet there, and i guess that will improve.
I haven’t seen any other recent examples of purely compute based GI. Frostbite devs presented a similar technique to Lumen using screen space surfel caching but the sampling was done via hardware ray tracing into a BVH. Lumen is unique in sampling from an SDF but that comes with its own issues.
Yes using Lumen doesn’t prevent you from using other lighting approaches. You can even mix Lumen SDF GI with Lumen BVH (hardware) reflections. Maybe we shouldn’t refer to Lumen as “software” because it also supports hardware acceleration for some things.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
IMO, at the start of the generation I felt that due to the cost to implement performant RT hardware if they wanted to ship in 2020 such that the RT would be worth it, it would have made the console far more expensive not to mention potentially needing to deal with NV.
I still believe that the RT in consoles is more of a checkbox item than a true benefit for most games. IMO, within the timeframe of the consoles launch, HWRT needed the consoles far more than the consoles needed HWRT.
Because of the consoles there are far more developers that are dipping their hands into HWRT and thus far more games getting released with some form of HWRT that wouldn't have if the consoles didn't have some form of HWRT.
The benefit that it brings to consoles OTOH is pretty much a toss-up, IMO. Some people like it and will try to play with RT enabled, some people will feel the RT isn't worth the performance hit of enabling it on console.
Regards,
SB
Silent_Buddha
Legend
IIRC, Halo: Infinite's Slipspace Engine also used a form of purely software based surfels for their lighting that includes a relatively basic and limited sort of bounce lighting. Of course, I can't find the video where I believe it was one of the engine architects talking about it.
Regards,
SB
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