The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)

[onQ]

Console devs pretty much started treating dual analog as a standard 2 generations ago with only the PS2 & Xbox having it as a standard control interface. now 2 generations later motion controls have been standard in the Wii , PS3 , Wii U & PS4 controllers with Xbox One being the only new mainstream gaming product without touch & motion control interface in the last 5 years or so.
Motion & Touch is now standard on PS4 , Wii U , 3DS , Vita , Tablets & Smartphones yet console devs haven't embraced them as a standard control interface for any major 3rd party titles. This generation already has close to 30 million consoles with touch & motion control interface yet all major console games are still being made around the dual analog standard with touch & motion controls only being used as optional controls or for menus.
I'm not saying that all console games should be made around touch & motion controls but we should at least be seeing some big 3rd party console games that are not made around dual analog controls.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

PS4 touch is very different to a tablet or Wii U. Wii U isn't selling enough numbers to justify a Wii U specific game. Touch-screen based games on consoles makes little sense.

 

[onQ]

PS4 touch is very different to a tablet or Wii U. Wii U isn't selling enough numbers to justify a Wii U specific game. Touch-screen based games on consoles makes little sense.

The touch controls are not so different that a game can't be made that use the touch controls in the same way.

By the way moving my thread about motion & touch being just as standard as dual analog controls into a thread about non-standard controls is a little strange lol.


Motion & Touch is now standard across all new major gaming platforms since the start of this decade besides Xbox One. Why is it still being treated as non-standard when it has a install base just as big if not bigger than analog controls? that was the point of the thread.

Standard control interfaces for gaming platforms that new games are being developed for.

KB&M = PC

Dual Analog = PS3 , Xbox 360 , PS4 , Wii U , Xbox One , Vita

Motion controls = PS3 , PS4 , Wii U , Vita , 3DS , Tablets/Smartphones

Touch interface = PS4 , Wii U , Vita , 3DS , Tablets/Smartphones , Laptops

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Motion & Touch is now standard across all new major gaming platforms since the start of this decade besides Xbox One. Why is it still being treated as non-standard when it has a install base just as big if not bigger than analog controls

Because the number of games using it on consoles is extremely niche, making it non-standard.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Because the number of games using it on consoles is extremely niche, making it non-standard.

Use of the touchpad on PS4 is now pretty standard. It's almost the default for being the map/inventory button - for any game that has some features. It's also good for scrolling around said map. Perhaps not what Sony had in mind but it's better than sacrificing a controller button or having to nest the map/inventory in the game's menu from Start/Select/Options etc.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

How many games use it as an input method for the gameplay similar to a touch screen?

 

[Deleted member 11852]

How many games use it as an input method for the gameplay similar to a touch screen?

Many of the games I've played - Assassin's Creed Black Flag, GTA V, Lego Marvel Superheroes, Dying Light, Far Cry 4 - all employ the touchpad like a touch screen for maps. You can scroll around them are a non-linear sped and select/unselect items, set waypoints and so on.

The games that have maps that aren't doing this are using the touchpad for something else. For example in Killzone Shadow Fall you use the touchpad to direct to the OWL (drone) and in Infamous Second Son it's used to absorb raw elements for your powers.

However to answer your exactly question, there really isn't like a touchscreen where most of the taps I do on a phone and tablet are clicking an icon, button or control which are visible on touch device. So although the DualShock 4 has a touchpad, the eye/hand co-ordination is more similar to a mouse because your eyes are focussed elsewhere.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

OnQ's idea that these options are standard isn't correct, because they're a muddle of different input methods. The touch interface of mobile is world's apart from the touch interface on DS4. 3DS's accurate, single-point stylus input is quite different from mobile's coarse multitouch. The motion controls in DS4 are also pretty dissimiliar because on mobile, the screen moves with the motion. There's very little crossover.

If making a multiplatform game for consoles and PC, the only commmon interface is thumbsticks and buttons (controller on PC, or map to KB+M). Motion controls in the standard controller aren't available to XB1 or PC. Touch input isn't available. Not everyone has camera input for hand tracking mirroring a touch-screen. The only reason to target something like the DS4's trackpad for true gameplay and not a convenient add-on is as an exclusive, and where's the financial sense in that?

 

[Deleted member 11852]

OnQ's idea that these options are standard isn't correct, because they're a muddle of different input methods.

I'm not disagreeing I'm saying that on PS4 touch virtually standard. Across consoles this still makes it niche because it's a subset of the market.

 

[onQ]

Because the number of games using it on consoles is extremely niche, making it non-standard.

That's what my thread was about. Motion & Touch has become just as much of a standard part of gaming devices as Dual Analog but console devs haven't really treated it like it's a standard part. It's mostly being used for menus & for optional controls.

My hope is that EA is smart enough to see that a game like Mirror's Edge shouldn't be limited by dual analog controls. They actually used the motion controls of the DS3 for Mirror's Edge on the PS3 hopefully this time they will build the game around motion & touch controls.

 

[onQ]

OnQ's idea that these options are standard isn't correct, because they're a muddle of different input methods. The touch interface of mobile is world's apart from the touch interface on DS4. 3DS's accurate, single-point stylus input is quite different from mobile's coarse multitouch. The motion controls in DS4 are also pretty dissimiliar because on mobile, the screen moves with the motion. There's very little crossover.

If making a multiplatform game for consoles and PC, the only commmon interface is thumbsticks and buttons (controller on PC, or map to KB+M). Motion controls in the standard controller aren't available to XB1 or PC. Touch input isn't available. Not everyone has camera input for hand tracking mirroring a touch-screen. The only reason to target something like the DS4's trackpad for true gameplay and not a convenient add-on is as an exclusive, and where's the financial sense in that?

There could be games made that use the PS4 & Wii U controller in the same way. How is that any different from the games that was made for the PS3 & Xbox 360? Also why do you feel it's such a big difference with a PC game that use KB/M being ported to dual analog vs a Tablet game that use motion & touch being ported to a console that has motion & touch in it's controller?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

For PC and console, the gamer is removed from the screen. The input is isolated from the output. It doesn't matter whether the input is mouse or thumbstick - the input schema and feedback mechanism is the same. In mobile, the two are tied together. In something like a ball-rolling game, the Dual Shock experience won't be at all comparable to the tablet experience due to the separation of the two. A game that has you press icons on the screen in the Wii U or tablet can't work on the DS4 with the non-visual touch area where you can't be sure where you're pressing. You can't draw accurately on the touch-pad versus the NDS or tablet. A game that uses dualshock motion (Warhawk) to its fullest would be rubbish on a phone because you'd be tilting the screen, the feedback, all over the shop.

The electronics and input principles may be the same, but the control systems (IO) are different.

 

[onQ]

For PC and console, the gamer is removed from the screen. The input is isolated from the output. It doesn't matter whether the input is mouse or thumbstick - the input schema and feedback mechanism is the same. In mobile, the two are tied together. In something like a ball-rolling game, the Dual Shock experience won't be at all comparable to the tablet experience due to the separation of the two. A game that has you press icons on the screen in the Wii U or tablet can't work on the DS4 with the non-visual touch area where you can't be sure where you're pressing. You can't draw accurately on the touch-pad versus the NDS or tablet. A game that uses dualshock motion (Warhawk) to its fullest would be rubbish on a phone because you'd be tilting the screen, the feedback, all over the shop.

The electronics and input principles may be the same, but the control systems (IO) are different.

If I tilt my controller is it not going to give the same input to a game as it would on a tablet? or if I do a left/right/forward/backwards swipe on a controller is it not going to give the same input as it would for a tablet game?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's not about inputs. It about the correlation between input and output.

If you tilt your tablet, you'll move the screen. If you use very large tilts like Warhawk, the output on a tablet will be a complete mess. If you tie the on screen motion to very small tilts (marble maze), you'll lose the close association between IO on a console. Swipes will of course work, but why is that better than a directional button/stick press? While the most important tablet interface, the direct control (press where you want to select, drag/press where you want the operation to end) isn't reproducible on DS4 - you can't select directly the object of interest (have to press a guess at where it is on the plastic touchpad) and can't move it exactly where you want without a slow indirect update (move a bit, see where on the TV your input is, move a bit more, move a bit more, until you reach your target, versus tablet move directly to where you want as your input and output are in the same view adn you can move your hand to the position you're looking at).

 

[onQ]

It's not about inputs. It about the correlation between input and output.

If you tilt your tablet, you'll move the screen. If you use very large tilts like Warhawk, the output on a tablet will be a complete mess. If you tie the on screen motion to very small tilts (marble maze), you'll lose the close association between IO on a console. Swipes will of course work, but why is that better than a directional button/stick press? While the most important tablet interface, the direct control (press where you want to select, drag/press where you want the operation to end) isn't reproducible on DS4 - you can't select directly the object of interest (have to press a guess at where it is on the plastic touchpad) and can't move it exactly where you want without a slow indirect update (move a bit, see where on the TV your input is, move a bit more, move a bit more, until you reach your target, versus tablet move directly to where you want as your input and output are in the same view adn you can move your hand to the position you're looking at).

Games like Subway Surfers/Temple Run & so on use the fast directional swipes & tilt. You say that can be done with the dpad/sticks as if the fast swiping & tilting isn't part of the fun of using these type of controls.


All I'm saying is that consoles are no longer limited to dpad & analog stick controls so console devs should at least make a few games that are not built around dpad or analog stick controls. Analog stick & Dpad feel handicapped when trying to do some tasks that work perfectly with touch or motion controls & vice versa so I'm sure that some games could be made using touch or motion as the standard controls.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Games like Subway Surfers/Temple Run & so on use the fast directional swipes & tilt. You say that can be done with the dpad/sticks as if the fast swiping & tilting isn't part of the fun of using these type of controls.

You want to play Temple Run on your PS4?! Swiping on the touch pad?

All I'm saying is that consoles are no longer limited to dpad & analog stick controls so console devs should at least make a few games that are not built around dpad or analog stick controls.

They've been free to do that for ages since EyeToy. There's been motion in sixaxis, camera-tracking, and Move. The reasons for not using alternative inputs clearly aren't due to a lack of availability - devs just aren't interested in them for gameplay mechanics and don't believe they add anything to their work.

So I repeat, someone needs to make a business argument. The argument for compatibility with tablets doesn't stick because the IO is different, so alternative controls on consoles will be isolated to consoles.

Analog stick & Dpad feel handicapped when trying to do some tasks that work perfectly with touch or motion controls & vice versa so I'm sure that some games could be made using touch or motion as the standard controls.

Give an example of where motion controls would be better for a game, and then describe how a dev can go about integrating that in a multiplatform title. Make the case for motion controls!

 

[onQ]

You want to play Temple Run on your PS4?! Swiping on the touch pad?

Temple Run is just proof that a game could be made around the fast swiping that don't really need visual contact. On console the game could be a lot bigger than Temple Run these controls can be used in something like PT when you are running through the halls with the ghost behind you. A NFL Blitz like Football game in which you would have to do these fast swipes & motions to dodge & break tackles & so on.

They've been free to do that for ages since EyeToy. There's been motion in sixaxis, camera-tracking, and Move. The reasons for not using alternative inputs clearly aren't due to a lack of availability - devs just aren't interested in them for gameplay mechanics and don't believe they add anything to their work.

Eyetoy & Move was not standard parts of the console , PS4 & Wii U user base is close to 30 million with touch & motion input good enough to make games around. Sixaxis controls wasn't as tight as Wii U & DS4 controls are. Next Christmas the PS4 user base could be about 50 million alone so if a dev has a good idea of a game based around the DS4 controller right now they should be a lot more willing to put money behind it than they was for something like Eyetoy with a user base of 10 million out of 150 million PS2s or PS Move with 16 million out of 85 million PS3s.

So I repeat, someone needs to make a business argument. The argument for compatibility with tablets doesn't stick because the IO is different, so alternative controls on consoles will be isolated to consoles.

Wasn't dual analog controls limited to PS2 & Xbox when devs started making games around them? Same thing for last generation wasn't it limited to Xbox 360 & PS3?

Also do you think that a analog stick is closer to a mouse controls than the motion/touch controls of the DS4 & Wii U pad? Do you think that Dual Analog is closer to KB/M than the motion & touch controls of the WiiU/PS4 are to the motion & touch controls of a tablet?

Give an example of where motion controls would be better for a game, and then describe how a dev can go about integrating that in a multiplatform title. Make the case for motion controls!

Fire Rescue game running through a burning building ducking & jumping over stuff with quick swipes, using the controller as your hand to pick up stuff & move it out of your way as you look for victims, pointer controls to aim the water house to put out the fire.

Can also be done on a Tablet & PC because the motion & touch controls of the DS4 & WiiU pad are closer to a mouse than a analog stick.


Edit: In case you didn't understand the controller as your hand thing: What I mean by using the controller as your hand is that you can use the controller like a Air Mouse with one of the triggers to grip & release as you toss stuff out of your way.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Fire Rescue game running through a burning building ducking & jumping over stuff with quick swipes, using the controller as your hand to pick up stuff & move it out of your way as you look for victims, pointer controls to aim the water house to put out the fire.

Why's that better than buttons? Use the thumb stick or face buttons to dodge and move. Right thumbstick to aim hose.

 

[onQ]

Why's that better than buttons? Use the thumb stick or face buttons to dodge and move. Right thumbstick to aim hose.

Because instead of pressing small buttons with preset actions you can use one big button where your actions control the game. Right thumb stick wouldn't feel the same as controlling a water hose with 6 degrees of freedom.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Those actions distil into directional swipes, so it makes no difference. Plus buttons are much lower latency because you don't need to store the input paths for gesture recognition processing.