The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)

[Danalys]

Yep. You need stereo vision for stereo AR. However, I consider those AR uses in the home so niche as to not be worth pursuing for a console. Best case, you have either EyePet with 3D object interaction, hiding behind table legs, or Kinect style full-body action with you in the game wearing virtual suits of armour etc. For the mainstay, 3D AR really hasn't got much appeal IMO.

That may not be the case over the lifetime of the machine tho. Personally i'd make it an add on. Following previous PS Eye and Kinect business models. Only packed in when the margins on the machine allow it.

If the Eye is standard then perhaps they could just sell an adapter to offer 3D. a smaller cheaper version of 2D to 3D adapters you can get for consumer level cameras now.

 

[Arwin]

I would find it pretty inexcusable if they keep the old PS Eye for next gen though, as that thing is really not up-to-par imho. Image quality is quite abysmal.

 

[Danalys]

It's cheap webcam quality. But yeah reasonable improvement would be nice. I dream of future where cameras can capture more than you can see and you actually have to take a range of what it's seeing to display. Like setting the exposure after the fact, or the visual equivalent of having a really good microphone go through dynamic compression.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

HDR CCDs are definitely the future. That plus depth. Although more important for a console camera's visual system is noiseless low-light performance.

 

[Danalys]

I just thought that determining 3D from stereoscopic view probably has some stuff in common with creating a MVC file. Nowhere near real time application tho, and would be quite the resource hog.

 

[MrFox]

It probably won't be a CCD, it's going to be a BSI CMOS. The PS3 eyetoy was using a CMOS from Omnivision because Sony wasn't that much in the sensor game at the time. It's a given that the new one will be a Sony chip. It can't be really expensive to have two of their OWN sensors, they have a huge production volume (they even supply Apple and Samsung for their flagship phones). The sensitivity for a similar chip is easily a 4 to 8 times improvement over the PS3 eyetoy, possibly much more if they go with RGBW.

I can't use ANY features of the eyetoy that require decoding the RGB image. I can't turn on the light because I'm using a projector (like many hardcore gamers). The sensitivity either has to be WAY more, or I'd prefer they'd add an integrated IR source, or even an optional one would be fine. What's cool is that if they improve the sensitivity that much, they can lower the ball's intensity by that much too, and make it lighter with a much smaller battery.

 

[jonabbey]

The PlayStation Eye on PS3 is actually surprisingly decent in low-light conditions. At least, it seems to be in the one game I have that actually has video chat. The resolution is just terrible, though.

 

[Arwin]

What you see in situations where Move is in play, is that the PS Eye performs way worse than normally (which is already pretty crappy imho) because then the ball is all it cares about and making the rest darker just helps the image. But that means that the Move and the quality of the image are currently almost antithetical, which is something that should be solved if you want convincing, immersive AR (which something like EyePet or some of the Move AR sword stuff otherwise can be quite well - in daylight it's ok enough, and stuff like Start the Party is great fun, still like that myself, and the kids still love that)

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's very true, Arwin. Move doesn't offer real synergy with PSEye as the illumination issues are so very different. They could easily drop the intensity of the orbs and have them visible. Kinda like traffic lights and tail-lights these days. They have gotten so bright as to be pretty dazzling. To be seen at night, they need only be fairly dim - could do with power throttling tied to environmental brightness. PSEye has good low-light performance for a 2006/7 webcam, but it's still noisy. A next-gen camera could solve a lot of that.

 

[MrFox]

I would guess that with the current PS3 Eye, they can't lower the intensity without causing problems. I remember mentioning this when it launched and Anton replied they'd look into adding an option to lower the intensity in the PS menu... but that never happened.

I think the Move system can detect and follow VERY quick movement because it has short exposure time and very high frame rate. Lower intensity would need longer exposure, so lower frame rate, more lag, loss of precision and motion blur, losing the orb with any quick movement. (could be the reason Kinect cannot show the bottom of an avatar's shoe). Or keeping a fast shutter could prevent detection of the orb size with any precision. Sizing a noisy motion blurred ball can't be as easy as a clean round one

 

[Danalys]

Well yeah they needed it to peek so they had a circle with near enough all the same colour to work with, for quicker less intensive processing, so games could still be graphically close enough to none positional tracking titles.

 

[Blazkowicz]

Oh god, I have read too much of the internets. My brain inserted a four letter word after 'circle' in your sentence.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

This thread is worth revisiting in light of MS's 180. I hate to say, "I told you so," but we see again an alternative control system not being properly backed and it's going to go nowhere. I see know reason to believe in these ideas. EyeToy was the first taste of abandoned, unsupported ideas, and Kinect is the latest.

 

[MrFox]

I agree Microsoft can add a move-like peripheral.... but I doubt it would be "easy", it would be 180 degrees from their position of not having anything in your hands.

That was such a naive 2012 thinking... to think MS wouldn't do a 180, about anything

I would guess that with the current PS3 Eye, they can't lower the intensity without causing problems. I remember mentioning this when it launched and Anton replied they'd look into adding an option to lower the intensity in the PS menu... but that never happened.

It happened !! A generation later...
But that makes me think maybe the new tracking (DS4 or Move) will still work without turning the orb back to full brightness?

 

[wco81]

This thread is worth revisiting in light of MS's 180. I hate to say, "I told you so," but we see again an alternative control system not being properly backed and it's going to go nowhere. I see know reason to believe in these ideas. EyeToy was the first taste of abandoned, unsupported ideas, and Kinect is the latest.

Look at what's happened in computers.

There have been many ideas for pointing devices, such as air mice, trackballs and trackpads, etc.

And keyboards with different layouts.

None of these input devices have displaced the regular mouse and the QWERTY keyboard and they're not going to be obsoleted any time soon.

For that matter, voice recognition isn't displacing it either.

Only multitouch has had some measure of success, only because mobile device form factors prevent the dominant input devices.


And it'll be the same with VR. They will carve out a small niche but that's about it.

 

[Arwin]

That's very true, Arwin. Move doesn't offer real synergy with PSEye as the illumination issues are so very different. They could easily drop the intensity of the orbs and have them visible. Kinda like traffic lights and tail-lights these days. They have gotten so bright as to be pretty dazzling. To be seen at night, they need only be fairly dim - could do with power throttling tied to environmental brightness. PSEye has good low-light performance for a 2006/7 webcam, but it's still noisy. A next-gen camera could solve a lot of that.

Also nice to read back. We were right on this, though I didn't predict that the next gen solution for PS4 would be two cameras. But it does work pretty well.

 

[Arwin]

Another thing - I was wondering before if the touch-pad would be a good alternative control method for the on-screen keyboard and that it was a pity they hadn't included it as an option. They have with the latest firmware, and I do think it's the best of the lot.

So we can now type on the same on-screen OS keyboard using:
- analog stick
- d-pad
- motion control (using gyro as pointer)
- touchpad

The last two are my favorite, and right now I prefer the touchpad.

Also, any doubts anyone had over its precision can be removed, it's as good as any. Hopefully you can start using it in the browser at some point as well, it works fine as a mouse pointer.

 

[AzBat]

Microsoft has now entered the health/fitness wearable device market with the $199 Microsoft Band. Here's an article from ArsTechnica about the device...

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014...oft-health-the-199-all-platform-fitness-band/

Why I'm including it here is mainly for its possible Xbox One & Kinect support. Right now it's being sold as cross platform device with support for Windows Phone 8.1, iOS 7.1 & Android 4.3 devices. I would think Xbox Fitness would be a perfect fit. Be neat to see how well the heart rate monitor compares between Band & Kinect.

Tommy McClain

 

[AzBat]

Microsoft posted an article on how the Band came to fruition . Looks like the design has a lot of connections with Xbox & Kinect...

That same year, Microsoft launched the Kinect motion sensor for Xbox. Farah Shariff, now Program Manager for the Microsoft Band Algorithms and the Electrical Engineering teams, said, “I started looking into what other cool accessories we could make. Kinect sees you, but what about making something that senses you? And what about using Kinect technology for something that can leave the living room?

The first iteration of the team’s fitness device, called Jewel, adapted Kinect sensor technology to create an optical heart rate monitor. It used light to track blood flow (rather than measuring electrical pulse like other devices). Alam said, “It could fit on the forearm or bicep and was a big step forward in terms of creating a continuous way for fitness enthusiasts to monitor their heart rate.”

The industrial design was done by Quentin Morris, the Senior Industrial Designer responsible for the Xbox One controller.

Tommy McClain

 

[zed]

Looks good, better than the ugly samsung one thats for sure, though the screen is still too big, which is a huge design flaw. You're not gonna want to do something with this screen, all you want is basic info, if you want to do something send/read a text etc, you pull out your phone.
Since I do a lot of walking/fitness this is my ideal one

*1 accurate step / distance counter (within 1%)
*2 accurate heartrate monitor (within 1%)
*3 ability to see in full sun
*4 waterproof, doesnt have to be 10m but at least to 1m
*5 decent battery life, i.e. a week

why does it have a full color screen, which hampers #3 & #5, sure it looks good in the shop/ads but in real usage youre not gonna be using it to watch films/images etc
and to top it off if you wear it like a watch screen outside of wrist then how do you tilt your wrist to read it horizontally, vertical is easy though, perhaps you wear it facing inwards?

Like I said here the apple watch will fail as well due to it missing out on these points, ok some will argue its not a fitness device & theyre right but what is it then?

I will see how good it is with points #1 & #2 if its good perhaps I'll grab this MS band