The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)

How are they measuring sold to customers though? There's no (AFAIK) decent market tracking in Europe. GfK offers some reports for some areas, but I don't think there are solid numbers. Plus how is every unit sold tracked anyhow? I find it hard to believe all retail outlets are recording per unit sales and reporting these to MS.

I'd say it's all pretty much a rub anyhow, and whether they are sold to customers or sold to retail counts for pretty much the same thing - it's not like there are millions of Kinects bought by retailers that aren't being sold on!

Sure, lock the thread so you can get in the last word. ;)

Firstly, MS seem pretty confident in these numbers. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to have a good enough handle on how one of their products is selling to be able to take them at face value when they specifically mention a retail sales number and repeatedly confirm they are referring to retail sales even if they aren't exactly accounting for every unit.

Secondly, I strongly disagree that the difference between sold TO retail and sold AT retail is negligible in these circumstances. We are talking about a major worldwide product launch during the holiday season which is automatically going to mean a huge initial shipment (which without retail sales to support them will be followed by much smaller subsequent shipments). The fact that they are specifically highlighting retail sales prevents all of the speculation you typically see when a PR mentions sold to retail numbers.
 
Both accessories appear to be doing well. Move has the potential to sell more controllers just because a household could potentially buy from 1-4 move controllers and even single guys with no friends could potentially buy 2 controllers.

Assuming there's a decent profit margin on Move controllers Sony stands to make a fair chunk of cash.

Kinect will be at a bit of a disadvantage with regards to numbers of units moved as it's going to be 1 accessory per household in 99.9% (just a guess) of cases.

In MS's case, I would hazard a guess that whether Kinect has a profit margin or not isn't as key to them as using Kinect will require the purchase of a game or two, and thus there's more chance they'll get additional software revenue from Kinect. This is versus Move with many games being retrofit with Move controls. For example, how many more copies of LBP2 will sell because of Move integration versus if Move hadn't been launched? And then compare that difference to any given Kinect title which only sells due to Kinect.

Both accessories stand to do quite well and give both companies a large boost, IMO. Going by retailers in the US however, it seems Kinect as predicted will do more to expand the userbase (all SKU's sold out consistently) while Move will serve to strengthen the existing userbase (single move sold out consistently, starter and console bundles in good supply).

What'll be interesting is how Europe treats both accessories. Non-localized versions of Kinect should hurt it in countries where it hasn't yet been localized. And Europe other than a few countries is generally more favorable with regards to the PS3.

I really can't wait until the Holiday season is over and companies start releasing quarterly results. Going to be fun digging through those numbers. :)

Regards,
SB
 
Problem with Move is no software that stands out. Kinect has Dance Central, the rest of the stuff is very similar to Wii, the best Move software is Sports Champions, but it's also similar to the Wii.

I saw a DDR game that has a dancing pad AND move compatibility at Best Buy the other day. I wonder how that plays out, but I'm uninterested in dancing games.
 
Both accessories stand to do quite well and give both companies a large boost, IMO. Going by retailers in the US however, it seems Kinect as predicted will do more to expand the userbase (all SKU's sold out consistently) while Move will serve to strengthen the existing userbase (single move sold out consistently, starter and console bundles in good supply).

There's no reason to reach a conclusion about the Move strengthening the existing userbase on the grounds of the single move controller being sold out consistently.

I wanted to buy a couple of individual Move controllers and a nav controller because I bought a PlayStation Eye a couple of years ago, but how many PS3 users will have done that? I would expect most PS users getting into Move to buy at least the starter bundle with the camera and controller, and most individual controller sales going to beef up the number of players / the variety of games that can be played in an individual household.

Of course that's no less speculative than your suggestion. Without knowing how much Sony tilted their production and shipments towards bundles or individual controllers, we can't make much sense out of it.

It would be nice to get an idea of how many copies of Sports Champions Sony is selling, though..
 
Secondly, I strongly disagree that the difference between sold TO retail and sold AT retail is negligible in these circumstances. We are talking about a major worldwide product launch during the holiday season which is automatically going to mean a huge initial shipment (which without retail sales to support them will be followed by much smaller subsequent shipments). The fact that they are specifically highlighting retail sales prevents all of the speculation you typically see when a PR mentions sold to retail numbers.

Yeah, I think the sales to and through numbers should be pretty wide (not sure how big though). It's the rate of sales Sony should be tracking. As long as the controllers are well stocked, and they have sexy software plus new experience in the pipeline, they should do ok. The key thing is they did not throw much money into the marketing wind to generate demand, so they get to keep more in the pocket; but also should sell slower.

The curious side of me thinks they should leverage more on the Wii user base. Family content should work well on both. But Sony probably won't do it, or publicly acknowedge it (for obvious reason).
 
There's no reason to reach a conclusion about the Move strengthening the existing userbase on the grounds of the single move controller being sold out consistently.

I wanted to buy a couple of individual Move controllers and a nav controller because I bought a PlayStation Eye a couple of years ago, but how many PS3 users will have done that? I would expect most PS users getting into Move to buy at least the starter bundle with the camera and controller, and most individual controller sales going to beef up the number of players / the variety of games that can be played in an individual household.

Of course that's no less speculative than your suggestion. Without knowing how much Sony tilted their production and shipments towards bundles or individual controllers, we can't make much sense out of it.

It would be nice to get an idea of how many copies of Sports Champions Sony is selling, though..

Yes, my opinion was based on some general assumptions.

1. MS allocating more units to 4 GB bundles followed by equal quantities of stand alone and 250 GB bundles.
2. Sony allocating more units the stand alone controller followed by the starter pack and then more distantly the console bundle.
3. 1 household = 1 Kinect = 1-4 Moves.

Assumption for [1] being that MS is solidly targeting the casual buyer who most likely doesn't have an X360 and who might be more attracted to the price of a 4 GB model versus a 250 GB model. Stand alone models would be opportunistic sales to owners who may have a girlfriend, wife, and/or kids. 250 GB models would be for more affluent casuals as well as potential owners of PS3's who do not have an X360 (ie - core gamer with a wife/girlfriend and/or kids).

Assumption for [2] is that Sony has designed experiences specifically to take advantage of (although not required) 2 controllers combined with the established base of PS3 owners who already have a camera (especially in Europe). As well, for simultaneous mutiplayer gaming, you'll need a Move for each person. So not everyone wanting Move will need the starter pack, so potential of 1-4 standard moves can be sold. And even those without a camera who buy a starter pack may want one or more controllers, so potential for 1-3 standard moves to be sold. And for the console bundle. Ummm. Just how attractive is Move so far for casuals when compared with Kinect? Especially if a casual is looking at 299 USD versus 399 USD. And those knowledgeable enough to think about whether they need a HDD (399 USD Kinect bundle) will also start thinking about the price of additional Move controllers and potential nav controllers. And once again, potential for 1-3 Move controller sales with each console bundle.

Of course, there's always the chance that Sony execs weren't confident in their own product and allocated less stand alone units because they expect most PS3 owners to want 1 move controller at most and that people with a camera wouldn't be as interested in Move. But I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they expected and were hoping that people would want multiple Moves as well as people with cameras wanting a Move.

Hmmm, going back to assumptions for [2]. High demand for Kinect might actually help Sony inadvertantly. As price gouging on Kinect 4 GB model is pushing it up to the price of the Move console bundle at some e-tailers. It probably won't affect brick and mortar sales, but may help Sony a tad in online sales.

Anyway, as for Move. I think the only big variable here is how many Move controllers does Sony project for each "household." I'm going to assume their projections are for somewhere between 2-4 Moves per household when averaged out. Higher than 2, and definitely lower than 4.

Regards,
SB
 
We've also confirmed with Sony that the sales numbers are in reference to retailers, not consumers, and learned that 75 percent of the sales in the US are bundles -- meaning new console sales or software groupings.

I found this quote interesting. Gives us some idea of the amount of individual controllers vs bundles in US, if we extrapolate that WW (which i hate doing) thats 3mil bundles and 1mil individual controllers sold to retail.

Overall its doing very well imo. I know its sold to retail, but i wouldnt expect retailers to overstock by two big a margin beyond demand. I would expect sold through to be atleast 70% of sold to retail.
 
I found this quote interesting. Gives us some idea of the amount of individual controllers vs bundles in US, if we extrapolate that WW (which i hate doing) thats 3mil bundles and 1mil individual controllers sold to retail.

Overall its doing very well imo. I know its sold to retail, but i wouldnt expect retailers to overstock by two big a margin beyond demand. I would expect sold through to be atleast 70% of sold to retail.

I dunno , I had to hunt down the epic mickey nunchuck today and went to about 8 bestbuys and there are tons of bundles at retail stores. Black friday and cyber monday just happened and there was so much stock just sitting there. The only thing close to it was the wii.
 
yea. Kinect (based on the huge reception by consumers so far) appears to be headed into the Hall of Fame for gaming peripherals. (which has a very short list of successes :p)

The interaction of technology and entire body is only going to expand and will some day be considered main stream in some form or another. Resist at your peril (just as there are those who resist Digital DL as the future ;))
 
Secondly, I strongly disagree that the difference between sold TO retail and sold AT retail is negligible in these circumstances. We are talking about a major worldwide product launch during the holiday season which is automatically going to mean a huge initial shipment (which without retail sales to support them will be followed by much smaller subsequent shipments).
But if the stores are running low on stock, and you can't just wander into a store and pick a Move up, then surely the sell-through has to be ~ the sold-to-retail. I may be wrong, but I can't envisage a situation in where, say, 4 million units were bought by stores, they sold 2 million to the public, and are now drip-feeding from their remaining supplies of 2 million. Unless you mean reatil bought and paid for 4 million Moves, but Sony hasn't made that many yet and is gradually filling out those orders?
 
I dunno , I had to hunt down the epic mickey nunchuck today and went to about 8 bestbuys and there are tons of bundles at retail stores. Black friday and cyber monday just happened and there was so much stock just sitting there. The only thing close to it was the wii.

At 70% sell through thats roughly 1.3mil out in the wild still, more than enough to give the impression of lots being in stock at the big outlets. Your anecdotal evidence does little to prove anything either way, similar to the stories of them being sold out in lots of places. Better to look at standard buisness practice to get an idea where it stands instead.
 
Well from what I heard Move is doing fairly well. My buddies over at the Sports Champion studio are safe as the numbers are good. So I'm happy :) Having said that I can find Move's everywhere here in LA, and even sometimes a stand alone Kinect on a shelf here and there. Perhaps we get a higher allotment down here though.
 
I wasn't talking about Move, because I really have no idea how it's selling. Sony won't say. They have a number they like better that they have chosen to release instead. And it's definitely a choice and not that they don't know (or have a very good idea) what their actual retail sales are.

But if the stores are running low on stock, and you can't just wander into a store and pick a Move up,

Who says they are, and that you can't? Anecdotal evidence?

Shifty Geezer said:
I may be wrong, but I can't envisage a situation in where, say, 4 million units were bought by stores, they sold 2 million to the public, and are now drip-feeding from their remaining supplies of 2 million. Unless you mean reatil bought and paid for 4 million Moves, but Sony hasn't made that many yet and is gradually filling out those orders?

I can easily envision a situation where you:

Go from 0 retail presence to full stock
Sell out of the initial stock due to early demand
Fully replenish that stock
Take a snapshot of your sales TO retail

In that situation there could be very little similarity between the sales TO retail and the sales AT retail.

BTW this scenario isn't specific to Move or any other product, it's an endemic flaw to using shipped numbers to try to indicate the success of a product.
 
Who says they are, and that you can't? Anecdotal evidence?
From plenty of sources, making it more empirical evidence.


I can easily envision a situation where you:

Go from 0 retail presence to full stock
Sell out of the initial stock due to early demand
Fully replenish that stock
Take a snapshot of your sales TO retail

In that situation there could be very little similarity between the sales TO retail and the sales AT retail.
Over a given time span, true, but in terms of overall sales, it'll make no odds. that is, if 2 million have been sold now, and there are 2 million in stores and warehouses not yet sold to customers, unless suddently Move interest drops to zero and none are sold, those later 2 million will be sold. Meaning 4 million will be sold to customers over whatever period. given the way sales tend to work, you don't look for a product's sales to plummet unless something is seriously wrong with it. Interest will fizzle out over time, with retail buying less stock each month, so the actual amount of units sold to retail that'll never reach final consumers is very limited as stores won't overstock and will discount the leftovers.
 
From plenty of sources, making it more empirical evidence.

FWIW, all of the major retailers have the Sports Champions bundle in stock (according to their online sites) at my local branch. The individual controllers, though, do seem to be in short supply.

Shifty Geezer said:
Over a given time span, true, but in terms of overall sales, it'll make no odds. that is, if 2 million have been sold now, and there are 2 million in stores and warehouses not yet sold to customers, unless suddently Move interest drops to zero and none are sold, those later 2 million will be sold. Meaning 4 million will be sold to customers over whatever period. given the way sales tend to work, you don't look for a product's sales to plummet unless something is seriously wrong with it. Interest will fizzle out over time, with retail buying less stock each month, so the actual amount of units sold to retail that'll never reach final consumers is very limited as stores won't overstock and will discount the leftovers.

If the rate of sales isn't important, why does every press release mention a time frame the sales have been achieved in?

I'm sorry. I just can't agree that X units in customer hands today is no more significant than Y units that may end up in someone's hands someday.
 
FWIW, all of the major retailers have the Sports Champions bundle in stock (according to their online sites) at my local branch. The individual controllers, though, do seem to be in short supply.

Yap. In my nearest retailers, someone has given up restocking individual controllers. It's all SC bundles now. They used to leave empty slots for the individual controllers. According to the manager, the bundles do get replenished before they sold out. So every time I went there, they seem untouched. In any case, I don't think we can derive any deep insights from these individual observations. Will need to wait longer to know the sustained sales through picture.
 
http://www.siliconera.com/2010/12/0...details-ghost-tapping-alternate-reality-game/

Namco Bandai, it seems, is working on an alternate reality game. A patent filed in the USPTO details a ghost tapping game played on a device that looks a lot like a Nintendo DS.



Namco Bandai has a system that extracts features and looks for objects with a nested structure (points 20, 22, 24, and 26 in figure 6).



The type of feature image determines what kind of monster pops out. The stereotypical ghost comes out of quadrangular image areas, like rectangular windows. A rabbit-like creature appears if there are elliptical imageareas.


Not sure if their image analysis will work well on a portable console.
 
FWIW, all of the major retailers have the Sports Champions bundle in stock (according to their online sites) at my local branch. The individual controllers, though, do seem to be in short supply.
FWIW the bundle is very hard to come by in th UK. Plus with stock coming and going, you never know when you'll start looking just as new stock has arrived. Looking at the large range of people who have noticed they cant buy either Kinect or Move, it shows volumes are moving and not stockpiling.

If the rate of sales isn't important, why does every press release mention a time frame the sales have been achieved in?
Bragging rights! It'll show some popularity or whatever, but at the end of the day the important number for the console company, developers, and users is how many actually get sold. Now if you have a higher rate of sales, that'll be better overall, I won't disagree with that. At this point though, it feels like the resopnse has been "Kinect is selling lots, Move isn't." It's as if Sony's numbers are completely ignored because they are shipped, not sold to retailers, rather than considered for what info they offer. And at this point, with 2.5 M Kinects sold, and 4 million Moves, chances are the situation in terms of install base is quite similar, rather than half those Moves are sat out back.

I wish for all our sakes Sony would present sold-to-consumer figures just to end these eternal arguments! Although I do question how MS get those figures - there has to be a fair amount of estimation involved.
 
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