Move will work the same, using MEMS to record input. These games don't require the players to point at the screen.
The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)
- Thread starter patsu
- Start date
well this is what I thought, but PSeye will still need to 'see' the Move no? I guess PSeye has a wider view than Kinect?
SingStar is a singing game. There are two singers, and there are an addition of two dancers. Has nothing to do with this ...
I just looked at the original press release, and that states very clearly that the game is announced as a Wii exclusive, like the rest of the Just Dance series, 720p screenshots notwithstanding.
@gooner: first of all, what Shifty means is that most Wii dance games use tilt sensors or gyro for WiiMotion+. The Move controller has the same functionality as WMP for detecting rotation and has a magnetometer for sensing direction. These are more than enough to do all the current Wii dance games without even needing the PS Eye at all.
However, for games that use the full 1:1 movement, you may be right and support for four players at once may be limited if it is for stuff like dancing games, as you'll still not want the Move controller to be obscured by the other dancers too much in that scenario. So we may see a limited amount of four player games that support four invidual gamers doing full body movement with the Move controller. Certainly I wouldn't be able to fit something like that in my livingroom.
As for SingStar, yes, you are right that in theory they could easily support 4 singers and 6 dancers, for instance. But Singing is much more important in Singstar than in the guitar hero / rockband games - it's a singing game at heart, and they're now adding guitar support and dance support (so far, not in a combination either). And I'm guessing that in this case, they do use the Move's positional data, so they do want to have the Move in view of the camera. As this video shows, two people on screen at the same time already takes quite a lot of space:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxBGGWDk3Os&feature=related
And looking at the original trailer, I now notice that they're also doing augmented reality stuff, so that requires the Move controllers in view of the camera as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxBGGWDk3Os&feature=related
Also notice in this video the battle mode with camera support that allows you to see the other 'crew' you're battling with online as a video feed.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
I can't quite remember whether it was MS or one of the software devs that said the currrent Kinect is tracking up to 3 players in their game. Again, I don't think it's down to being completely unable to track greater than 2 players. After all, I'm pretty sure I've seen screens of the skeletal tracking showing 3 separate skeletons being tracked.
There's a limited time to launch and you want the product as polished as possible at that time. Almost all your launch titles use a lot of physical activity that precludes more than 2 players comfortably in the camera's FOV. I'd imagine at that point you're going to focus on making sure that 2 player tracking is as polished as possible.
As well the flip side of advertising over and above what will be used at launch is that if all games launch with a limit of 2 tracked players max. But you advertise 4, people will start to wonder where the 4 player games are. Then wonder whether you are lying or not. After all, if no games support greater than 2 tracked players there's no way to prove you can track 4. And with the amount of MS hatred out there (it's still not uncommon to see people post M$), you can be sure there will be lots of that going around... Just look at how fast people are to jump on every single negative Kinect rumor that comes out with no proof that the rumor is even valid.
However if you only claim 2 tracked players to match your games. Then next year a 3 or 4 tracked player couch potato game comes out, you have now given people a pleasant surprise/bonus. Perhaps people think, wow, these MS guys are good as they bumped up player tracking from 2 to 3 or 4.
Marketing is a funny thing sometimes.
Regards,
SB
Gamesradar has an actual Kinect vs Move article. Note that it has a specific focus on it all and as soon as you know what it is, you won't be surprised at the outcome:
http://www.gamesradar.com/f/kinect-...er-hands-on-deathmatch/a-20100806153242335098
Still, hadn't expected this to come from this site, to be honest.
http://www.gamesradar.com/f/kinect-...er-hands-on-deathmatch/a-20100806153242335098
Still, hadn't expected this to come from this site, to be honest.
The verdict that they would pick Move for the core/hardcore gamer isn't surprising at all. Personally I wonder what they would have picked had they also included the Wii as well.
upnorthsox
Veteran
What Wii games would you use for the comparison?
Sorry to upset you but it can't do finger tracking (at the moment), we know this (as already stated by shifty) and because of the fact that in the bowling game it can't even track wrist movements (OK this is something I have decided myself from goonerlogic).
I suggested 'sign mode' as I dare say it can do finger tracking if it's only tracking hands and you stand closer to the camera (as pointed out due to lack of resolution).
I don't mind egg on my face, I'm an Arsenal fan and used to it! LOL
No worries, I don't take anything said on forums personally.
I am intrigued by what's to come, but I will not be an early adopter of either Move or Kinect (if it's left totally up to me).
I want to try them hands on and probably with more mature software to be convinced.
OT: How do webcams on laptops do facial recognition and would similar tech work for sign language?
Check them out on youtube.
It is not a straight Kinect/PSEye vs PS Move comparison in our (gaming) context. In general, the developers can adopt of a variety of approaches to avoid the use of sign language.
I'd pick a different application/areas to debate with Dr. Marks about the use of camera-based tech and controller-based tech.
I have it on my laptop, but I was wondering how it worked, but I will check Youtube later. Mine requires similar lighting conditions from each log-in to work.
Not looking to debate Dr. Marks, but I am trying to keep an open mind on how current solutions could enable sign language recognition without the use of the depth sensor. With non-standard interfaces, I think it would be smart to try to leverage current tech as well as look towards new solutions (not just with sign language).
Not looking to debate Dr. Marks, but I am trying to keep an open mind on how current solutions could enable sign language recognition without the use of the depth sensor. With non-standard interfaces, I think it would be smart to try to leverage current tech as well as look towards new solutions (not just with sign language).
If you're close enough, the system may be able to use light from the screen to get a clearer picture of your hands. Sony filed a patent for it. You can see the PSEye's sensitivity in this article:
http://iwaggle.blogspot.com/2010/07/top-10-playstation-move-myths-debunked.html
(I didn't really pay attention to the content, but the photo comparison in Point 5 shows the difference. When I first saw it a couple of years ago, I remember the author mentioned that the room was dark with no light source or powered monitor screens -- just like what the EyeToy picture shows).
Gesture recognition (including sign language) is not new. There should be many techniques to do it.
http://iwaggle.blogspot.com/2010/07/top-10-playstation-move-myths-debunked.html
(I didn't really pay attention to the content, but the photo comparison in Point 5 shows the difference. When I first saw it a couple of years ago, I remember the author mentioned that the room was dark with no light source or powered monitor screens -- just like what the EyeToy picture shows).
Gesture recognition (including sign language) is not new. There should be many techniques to do it.
Move evidently, given their bashing of the Wii and Wii+ experience.
Makes a nice change for PS3 to win a vs. article for once.
If you don't mind, I'm going to selectively quote a few posts here in answer to various points raised. I missed the fact that this element of the thread had been moved, and assumed either that my original post had been deleted for some obscure reason, or that I hit Preview rather than Submit
I'll also admit up front that the original post was designed to somewhat play devil's advocate. There are a fair number of posters here at Beyond3d, more than I encounter elsewhere (other than specific fansites of course), that work hard promoting their preferred Sony brand and hence my post was specifically designed to offer a counter viewpoint.
So let me state up front that, from a personal perspective, I am less than impressed by Kinect overall. It doesn't really offer me anything. Had it been cheaper, I could have imagined picking it up for the obligitatory Xmas period, where friends come to drink. But cheaper it is not.
Move, originally, intrigued me. Though it was clearly a "late entry" into E3 last year once Sony heard of MS's plans to show something, and though the Spring 2010 "release date" was obviously made up on the spot to "spoil" the Natal announcement, it was also obviously a mature tech that Marks had been playing around with for years and Sony had now decided to actually do something with. How could one not get excited?
So, onto some of the various points:
Seriously? Is that how you intend to start your rebuttal, by quoting a Sony engineer? A tech guy? How about I respond by bringing into the conversation a man with over 40 years in the entertainment industry, a man who has been at the cutting edge of technology for much of that time, who has been at the very forefront of the "shared family experience", and man who said of Natal that it can remove "the barrier of the controller" and allow gaming to "become as approachable as any other form of entertainment."
Does my Stephen Spielberg beat your Richard Marks? Well, at least he doesn't work for the company he's peddling goods for.
No, it's not. But as an "out of the box" experience (assuming Sony offer family aimed Move bundles) it's still more complex and fiddly that the Wii. Oh, and some Move will require full body anyway, such as the Kung Fu side-scroller.
True. Well, maybe not "vital" as I believe there is an element of prediction built into the software. But it is an issue, and for some people the need to be 1.2m from their TV for Kinect to work will be an issue.
Strangely, I'd have though that something heavier and with a larger base would be more stable than something that is so light that even the barest movement of the USB cable along its length could cause it to come tumbling.
There will be a variety of clips and clamps available for both solutions (in fact, I believe some have been posted later in the thread) for users in a similar situation to you.
I'm still with FAT so I'm ok (though given I've already had YLOD and it's making an awful racket at the moment, I think a Slim is in order) for USB ports too, though it's still ugly to have these things hanging from the front (and a 2 1/2 year old means they have to be removed when not in use). OT: I bought the wireless Singstar mics on a whim some months back.... and they come with a fecking dongle. How shite is that?
Well, one controller plus camera. And then some (sorry, using a DS3 in your left hand to control movement is not a viable solution... have you tried holding it single-handed for a significant period of time?) will need the navcon, which are those titles that are generally aimed at the hardcore. Yes, I understand that, as of now, no games require 2 Move's, but just that 2 will offer a better user experience.
But it's just messy.
You are, of course, correct in stating that it's going to be more accurate for users with a pointing device in shooters, but that does mean a 2-tier experience (especially in MP). Will games such as Socom have 2 seperate lobbies, one for those with Move and one with the DS3? Or will those games (as they state with Socom) spend time "balancing" to ensure that Move players have no advantage? If so, balancing will either mean reducing the accuracy of Move or making it easier (more lienient auto-targeting?) to get kills with the DS3. Neither is ideal, imho.
Oh, and Move will highlight (just as with Kinect) lag inherent in both the control mechanisims and also the displays, and nowhere will this be more apparent than in "twitch" games like shooters.
Firstly, it will reflect to an extent in all TV's, and will be especially noticable in dark scenes in games. As for the coloured balls being able to provide feedback, I too have seen this mentioned by a couple of developes. However, none so far have implemented it, and it seems the reason for that seems to be that the colour the ball takes is specific to ensure that it doesn't clash with any other colour in the area. We've already seen how quickly the Move loses signal when the colour of a floor changed to that similar of the Move at the time. So I can't see developers including, for example, muzzle flash in a game and having to state on the box, "Can't be played in an orange or yellow room. Player must wear colours other than orange and yellow".
Oh, and ambilight is a technology that looks at what is being displayed on a screen and then attempts to create a soft glow to complement (and therefore expand beyond the confines of the TV) what is being displayed at that moment. The Move glow is designed to create a differential from what is around it and in no way create a complementary ambience. Silly comparison.
It is a good strapline, but they needed a few years on the market to be able to properly get that particular message across properly. However, for Move to sell to the masses, I personaly believe it needs a clearer message. That Dr Marks is still showing tech demo's, months and months after Move properly launched at the GDC, and when there have been plenty of games to actually play with since E3, tells me that Sony still don't quite know what to do with it and how to market it. Do Sony really see it as a gimmicky add-on? Or is there intent somewhere deep within Sony to actually do something with Move?
Well then, that's a keyboard and mouse... and Sony have had that on the PS3 since day once. Yet, and forgive me if I'm wrong on this, but I don't believe Sony has released a single game that supports it.
You may actually be right about the DDR mat. For that particular experience, it is by far the best controller. I recall that you could play Guitar Hero 2 on the gamepad, but I don't think anyone would make the charge that this was the ideal way to play it.
My problem with the Move setup is that it's being sold as a more precise Wiimote for party games, where precision isn't needed (indeed, precision is something of an anathema to pick-up-and-play party games) and also as a better way to play "hardcore" games, when it is neither as complete a solution is the Keyboard/Mouse offering, nor as comfortable for extended play sessions as the current DS3. Added to that the requirement to mix and match 4 seperate peripherals just to be "not quite as good" as what is already available for the PS3 and it just comes across (to me) as unfocused and overly complex.
Of course, the Wii already comes with the Wiimote, navcom and sensor. Any other peripherals, such as the balance board, is something a user is just adding to a control layout they are already familiar with. The same with motion plus. Though, for the latter at least, there seems to be little interest from both gamers and publishers because... precision isn't what they are looking for?
What I don't understand is why there is no coloured ball on the navigation controller. Or why there aren't 2 move controllers that look the same, but one has the current button set and one has the button set and movement of the navigation controller. Then 3 pieces of hardware would make the complete Move pack.
It just smacks of "not quite knowing what to do" with the technology they already had. When Sony demo'd at E3 last year, did they then believe that they could cover all the experiences with just the camera and a couple of wands? I believe so. Which would explain why they couldn't retrofit a second wand with movement controls, and probably didn't have the time to get the move tech into the hastily developed navcon.
Well, that's it from me in this thread I think.
I'll also admit up front that the original post was designed to somewhat play devil's advocate. There are a fair number of posters here at Beyond3d, more than I encounter elsewhere (other than specific fansites of course), that work hard promoting their preferred Sony brand and hence my post was specifically designed to offer a counter viewpoint.
So let me state up front that, from a personal perspective, I am less than impressed by Kinect overall. It doesn't really offer me anything. Had it been cheaper, I could have imagined picking it up for the obligitatory Xmas period, where friends come to drink. But cheaper it is not.
Move, originally, intrigued me. Though it was clearly a "late entry" into E3 last year once Sony heard of MS's plans to show something, and though the Spring 2010 "release date" was obviously made up on the spot to "spoil" the Natal announcement, it was also obviously a mature tech that Marks had been playing around with for years and Sony had now decided to actually do something with. How could one not get excited?
So, onto some of the various points:
Seriously? Is that how you intend to start your rebuttal, by quoting a Sony engineer? A tech guy? How about I respond by bringing into the conversation a man with over 40 years in the entertainment industry, a man who has been at the cutting edge of technology for much of that time, who has been at the very forefront of the "shared family experience", and man who said of Natal that it can remove "the barrier of the controller" and allow gaming to "become as approachable as any other form of entertainment."
Does my Stephen Spielberg beat your Richard Marks? Well, at least he doesn't work for the company he's peddling goods for.
No, it's not. But as an "out of the box" experience (assuming Sony offer family aimed Move bundles) it's still more complex and fiddly that the Wii. Oh, and some Move will require full body anyway, such as the Kung Fu side-scroller.
True. Well, maybe not "vital" as I believe there is an element of prediction built into the software. But it is an issue, and for some people the need to be 1.2m from their TV for Kinect to work will be an issue.
Strangely, I'd have though that something heavier and with a larger base would be more stable than something that is so light that even the barest movement of the USB cable along its length could cause it to come tumbling.
There will be a variety of clips and clamps available for both solutions (in fact, I believe some have been posted later in the thread) for users in a similar situation to you.
I'm still with FAT so I'm ok (though given I've already had YLOD and it's making an awful racket at the moment, I think a Slim is in order) for USB ports too, though it's still ugly to have these things hanging from the front (and a 2 1/2 year old means they have to be removed when not in use). OT: I bought the wireless Singstar mics on a whim some months back.... and they come with a fecking dongle. How shite is that?
Well, one controller plus camera. And then some (sorry, using a DS3 in your left hand to control movement is not a viable solution... have you tried holding it single-handed for a significant period of time?) will need the navcon, which are those titles that are generally aimed at the hardcore. Yes, I understand that, as of now, no games require 2 Move's, but just that 2 will offer a better user experience.
But it's just messy.
You are, of course, correct in stating that it's going to be more accurate for users with a pointing device in shooters, but that does mean a 2-tier experience (especially in MP). Will games such as Socom have 2 seperate lobbies, one for those with Move and one with the DS3? Or will those games (as they state with Socom) spend time "balancing" to ensure that Move players have no advantage? If so, balancing will either mean reducing the accuracy of Move or making it easier (more lienient auto-targeting?) to get kills with the DS3. Neither is ideal, imho.
Oh, and Move will highlight (just as with Kinect) lag inherent in both the control mechanisims and also the displays, and nowhere will this be more apparent than in "twitch" games like shooters.
Firstly, it will reflect to an extent in all TV's, and will be especially noticable in dark scenes in games. As for the coloured balls being able to provide feedback, I too have seen this mentioned by a couple of developes. However, none so far have implemented it, and it seems the reason for that seems to be that the colour the ball takes is specific to ensure that it doesn't clash with any other colour in the area. We've already seen how quickly the Move loses signal when the colour of a floor changed to that similar of the Move at the time. So I can't see developers including, for example, muzzle flash in a game and having to state on the box, "Can't be played in an orange or yellow room. Player must wear colours other than orange and yellow".
Oh, and ambilight is a technology that looks at what is being displayed on a screen and then attempts to create a soft glow to complement (and therefore expand beyond the confines of the TV) what is being displayed at that moment. The Move glow is designed to create a differential from what is around it and in no way create a complementary ambience. Silly comparison.
It is a good strapline, but they needed a few years on the market to be able to properly get that particular message across properly. However, for Move to sell to the masses, I personaly believe it needs a clearer message. That Dr Marks is still showing tech demo's, months and months after Move properly launched at the GDC, and when there have been plenty of games to actually play with since E3, tells me that Sony still don't quite know what to do with it and how to market it. Do Sony really see it as a gimmicky add-on? Or is there intent somewhere deep within Sony to actually do something with Move?
Well then, that's a keyboard and mouse... and Sony have had that on the PS3 since day once. Yet, and forgive me if I'm wrong on this, but I don't believe Sony has released a single game that supports it.
You may actually be right about the DDR mat. For that particular experience, it is by far the best controller. I recall that you could play Guitar Hero 2 on the gamepad, but I don't think anyone would make the charge that this was the ideal way to play it.
My problem with the Move setup is that it's being sold as a more precise Wiimote for party games, where precision isn't needed (indeed, precision is something of an anathema to pick-up-and-play party games) and also as a better way to play "hardcore" games, when it is neither as complete a solution is the Keyboard/Mouse offering, nor as comfortable for extended play sessions as the current DS3. Added to that the requirement to mix and match 4 seperate peripherals just to be "not quite as good" as what is already available for the PS3 and it just comes across (to me) as unfocused and overly complex.
Of course, the Wii already comes with the Wiimote, navcom and sensor. Any other peripherals, such as the balance board, is something a user is just adding to a control layout they are already familiar with. The same with motion plus. Though, for the latter at least, there seems to be little interest from both gamers and publishers because... precision isn't what they are looking for?
What I don't understand is why there is no coloured ball on the navigation controller. Or why there aren't 2 move controllers that look the same, but one has the current button set and one has the button set and movement of the navigation controller. Then 3 pieces of hardware would make the complete Move pack.
It just smacks of "not quite knowing what to do" with the technology they already had. When Sony demo'd at E3 last year, did they then believe that they could cover all the experiences with just the camera and a couple of wands? I believe so. Which would explain why they couldn't retrofit a second wand with movement controls, and probably didn't have the time to get the move tech into the hastily developed navcon.
Well, that's it from me in this thread I think.
Don´t think so. Remember that RE5 was demoed at TGS last fall with a wand and a DS3.
The navigator is just a half DS3, but a more convenient one for those who think it´s worth the money.
There will be gesture games that will support two wands, such as certain fighting games, but most games will just use one wand.
yes, I must confess, add a ball to the Nav - makes perfect sense.
Indeed. It makes you wonder why there was no navigation shown at E309, why there was navigation but no dedicated controller at TGS09 a few months later and that the actual navigation controller wasn't actually shown to us until GDC this year, pretty much around the same time as the original release date for Move was supposed to be.
Specs can change from announcement to launch. Natal is an example of that, and the PS3 was much reduced from announcement to launch.
But the addition of a completely new peripheral from the announcement of Move (or unnamed, as it was at the time), along with the 6 month delay from the original launch date, seems to heavily imply the navcon wasn't originally envisaged.
Dr. Marks has explained that having an analogue stick on a wand was hard to use for gamers, handling two different movements with one hand proved to be very disorienting.
Having most games using just one move controller was also a cost decision as explained by Yoshida, to keep the entry cost down.
They treat it like all progress - if the new input method is better, those who want to remain competitive have to buy into it, or stick to titles without Move support. you can't hamper progress for the sake and those (like me) who drag their feet.
IIRC Sorcery change ball colour, as does the paint program.
The devs can disable sphere tracking for a colour flash like that, and then pick it up from change back to normal colour.
Have you seen/read of the gamer reviews of using Move? They love it, and its accuracy, and regard it as an improvement over stick input.
There's next to no effort at all in that respect. Take the MEMS gubbins from the Move and put it in the Navcon. The choice for the dumb Navcon, bizarre as it is, is clearly not a technical one.
