The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)

[Rotmm]

I think, personally, it's hard to argue that Move isn't a far better controller in general....

I've been thinking about this over the last couple of weeks and reading more and more about the 2 upcoming control schemes. And while I agree with your latter point, re: variety of games, new and existing, etc. I don't necessarily agree that makes Move a better controller, let alone a "far" better one.

I have my reservations about Kinect, the same as most do. But since E3, many of those reservations have disappated (though a new one, price, has become a huge elephant in the room!) and I find myself warming to it. Why? Well Kinect doesn't seem to suffer from multiple personalities and Microsoft appear to have a very clear vision of where they see it positioned. And in that position, it is by far the best controller... because there is no controller. It's all about simplicity and experience. Yes, maybe in the future elements of the Kinect tech will be incorporated into games using the standard 360 controller, but again that adds no new barrier to gameplay.

It's neat looking and deceptively simple.

Which Move is anything but. From the first, the setup looks more complicated that the Wii. Maybe not much, but positioning the camera correctly is going to take more time and effort than the Wii sensor bar, and of course it doesn't have the motors of Natal. And then you have the fact that it's connected via USB, which means you have (a personal pet hate of mine) a cable sprouting from the front of the console. If you live in a household with young children, that will have to be removed at the end of a play session. Or if you want to charge your controllers. Of if you want to play some Rock Band. Or Singstar. And have something like PlayTV. Why Sony didn't put a USB port or 2 on the back of the machine I'll never understand, and why they reduced the number of USB ports considering the machine's reliance on them is an even stranger decision.

Anyway, from that mess you then will have games that utilise the camera only (where light conditions are going to be a concern), use the camera plus one move controller, camera plus one move and one nagivation controller and games that use two move controllers.

Sorry, but if you need to have 4 seperate peripherals to cover all bases and get the best out of it, that does not make a good controller. A comprehensive control system maybe, but hardly one a far better one.

Oh, and the glowing balls? Cheap looking, distracting and rediculous.

This is Sony 2005 all over again when they tried to position the the PS3 as a supercomputer, games machine, media centre and bluray player and failing to get a coherent message across. Now they are trying to position "Move" as a Wii-beater, without really understanding that the reason the Wii "expanded" the market is precisely because it isn't precise, it is simple. They are trying to position it as more hardcore than Kinect, without realising that MS is not going after their existing fanbase anyway. And they are trying to position is as a hardcore alternative to the standard control system, without comprehending the fact that a "hardcore" gamer playing CoD for 4 hours a night is going to be much more comfortable doing that with a sixaxis than pointing a glowing ball at the screen.

Move has confused me. I just don't know what Sony want it to be. And if I don't know, then it seems to me to be a gimmicky add-on, rather than a far better controller than those that have gone before it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Move has confused me. I just don't know what Sony want it to be.

Sony see it as a controller, pure and simple. It's a device for software companies to build experiences around, and the flexibility of the controller means variety of experiences. They aren't pitching a headline experience, unlike Wii and Kinect, which seems to throw some (lots of?) people, but that's not how Sony think. To understand Move, look at the current software lineup - basically everything.

So if XB360 and PS3 haven't confused you for offering every type of game, instead of being an FPS console or a racer console or a kid console, Move shouldn't either. It's not geared to one game type or one experience any more than DualShock is. That's going to impact their marketing campaign for sure without a flag-waving concept to push. Wii had its family couch gaming campaign. Kinect will have bouncy-bouncy people. Move will have a mishmash of different games, which should appeal to gamers who already play a mishmash of different games, but will likely lose the general public.

Hmmm, just reviewed the title (which Move/Kinect thread is this?) and we're going OT now. this thread is for Move technology.

 

[goonergaz]

...

OK, I agree with one point here - the USBs on PS3, there should be at least one off the back...however I have 2 USBs permanently plugged into the front of mine - one is the PSeye and the other a 4 port USB hub.

I don't get the '4 devices' comment when comparing to Wii (both have the same amount - 2 or 3 for SP). They both have a similar setup however with PSeye there are 2 advantages that even the joe-est of joe public should be able to understand 1) the camera means you can be 'in' the game 2) no wires between controllers. From that it would be easy to demonstrate what other advantages it holds.

I sort-of agree with the ball comment - however from what I've heard from hands-on they all seemed to have the same pre-conception until seeing it in the flesh.

WRT Kinect vs Move, I don't see how a controller with more limitations can be better. Simple as IMHO. Kinect presents plenty of barriers if you want to expand beyond 'party/fitness' software. Don't get me wrong, I can see why people might prefer it, but the bottom line is you can give less commands with less accuracy...so by default as a control mech Move>Kinect.

For me also, the Move goal is clear - even if this crash and burns I know I will get plenty of value from it.

 

[Arwin]

And in that position, it is by far the best controller... because there is no controller. It's all about simplicity and experience.

But that is exactly why Marks liked it. Until he realised that using your body for everything isn't actually simple or a pleasant experience. From my experience with the EyeToy, I've grown to loathe having to keep my hand over a virtual button for a while in order to select something. Yet that's the way selection works for most 'button replacements' for Kinect that I've seen.

From the first, the setup looks more complicated that the Wii. Maybe not much, but positioning the camera correctly is going to take more time and effort than the Wii sensor bar

Sure, but it's not that hard. You put the thing on or in front of your TV, look at the camera image of yourself on the screen to see if it's pointed right, and presto. I've lots of experience with it for games like Singstar (where it is still the most popular - my son just really likes seeing himself until a photo is taken, he moves his hand and then waits for it to automatically freeze).

For Kinect, it is vital that the camera sees your whole body. The problem with having to make your living room 'Kinect compliant' remains. If I test Right now, I cannot do that in my room with the PS Eye at its best zoom factor - there is no way that I can position the camera facing me while I face the screen (which as far as I can tell is a requirement for most of these systems), that will capture my whole body (let alone two). I took some pictures using EyeCreate to test, and I'm cut off from my lips up and my knees down in the best case scenario where I press myself backwards against the couch.

I also looked at how to setup the camera. The PS Eye is really small and light, and I can put it on top of my LCD tv without problems. For Kinect, I'll have to either build a little thing above or onto the TV to hold it, or use the space to the left of my TV/surround speaker, as there is no room in front of my TV. I could put a table in front of the TV, but that would mean the field of view narrows even smaller. There is some room to the left of my TV though that could work. However, I will have to place the Kinect at the edge of the table, or it would have part of its FOV blocked by the surface it's put on.

and of course it doesn't have the motors of Natal.

They won't help though. Where it would be convenient, from my testing, is automatically following me from standing to sitting position. I don't know if it could tilt that far, but this would definitely be a plus (as soon as Kinect supports sit-down games, if ever, that is).

And then you have the fact that it's connected via USB, which means you have (a personal pet hate of mine) a cable sprouting from the front of the console.

I agree with this one, although it helps a little bit that the USB ports sink under the console to some extent. For the record, I have one with four USB ports, so I'm not quickly strapped for ports. Also I have had the PS3 initially in a cupboard below the TV. The USB attachments were no issue here, enough space in front. Then when I had to move it because the receiver had to be in its spot (both a little too deep for the other parts of our custom cupboard), I placed it upright with its back against the wall, which is actually where I had wanted it pretty much from day one, except that my wife objected. Of course, any USB extender will do to create more ports, and there are nice cheap ones that angle the connector so that your suffering should be minimal.

Anyway, from that mess you then will have games that utilise the camera only (where light conditions are going to be a concern), use the camera plus one move controller, camera plus one move and one nagivation controller and games that use two move controllers.

Sorry, but if you need to have 4 seperate peripherals to cover all bases and get the best out of it, that does not make a good controller. A comprehensive control system maybe, but hardly one a far better one.

Again, for by far the most games you have enough with one controller. That there are games which offer additional experiences by combining with a dualshock or a second move controller just means there are even more experiences that you can apply it to. It's all a matter of value - playing Resident Evil 5 with a dualshock/navicon and a Move controller is a kind of experience that is better than using a dualshock, but one that cannot be replicated by Kinect in any way, simply because accurate pointing is not in the repertoire of either Kinect or the regular controller. And while I think there may be ways to get rid of the dualshock/navicon altogether, either by replacing it with a second Move, or by holding a button on one Move to switch between movement and weapon control, with perhaps some clever AI to auto-pilot when you switch to weapon, the simple fact of the matter is that right now it's just much easier for developers to use a Move controller to replace the aiming function of the right analog stick, and this allows for bigger budget games to use the better pointing with a relatively small development effort. The advantage of this you can easily see in how well Move works for not only games that used an analog stick for pointing, but also for games that were tailored to mouse control or even touch screen controls originally, as evidenced by ports of both PC games that used mouse and ports of iPhone HD titles to the PS3.

Oh, and the glowing balls? Cheap looking, distracting and rediculous.

They're also another way to provide feedback to the player (Philips calls this ambilight), together with rumble and tactile buttons. You can see that as a disadvantage, but the only reasonable disadvantage I could find is that it may reflect in some TVs.

This is Sony 2005 all over again when they tried to position the the PS3 as a supercomputer, games machine, media centre and bluray player and failing to get a coherent message across.

Hence their current message 'it only does everything', which makes sense. I have a lot more to say on the subject, but this is the Move technology thread, and there are limits even to in what extent Kinect tech is relevant here, but the rest will definitely have to go into another thread.

 

[goonergaz]

For Kinect, I'll have to either build a little thing above or onto the TV to hold it.

Don't worry, I'm sure MS have a range of clamps and stands starting from just £29.99

edit

lol, I wasn't serious but:

http://www.thebitbag.com/2010/06/14/mad-catz-announces-kinect-accessories/

 

[obonicus]

...

I don't follow your logic. Why would more limited applicability make one solution better than the other? By that reasoning, is the DDR pad better than the dualshock?

Even outside the apples-to-oranges comparisons. Shouldn't the ultimate criteria for game controllers be the quality and breadth of the game experiences it enables?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I don't get the '4 devices' comment when comparing to Wii (both have the same amount - 2 or 3 for SP).

2 wands, 1 camera, and 1 navigation controller (either standard or the special navicon) if you want to use all games to their full potential.

Sony really REALLY dropped the ball on the move controller when they didn't just include an analog stick/nub on each. That would have made the navigation controller completely redundant and allowed everyone to just use 2x wands. Although I suppose in this case, they may have had to make a right handed and left handed wand (assuming analog controller was positioned near the thumb).

Regards,
SB

 

[goonergaz]

2 wands, 1 camera, and 1 navigation controller (either standard or the special navicon) if you want to use all games to their full potential.

OK, let's use that logic...with Wii you need the motion+ and board, so 5 in total (and I'm sure I'm missing a load of other bits out)

Sony really REALLY dropped the ball on the move controller when they didn't just include an analog stick/nub on each. That would have made the navigation controller completely redundant and allowed everyone to just use 2x wands.

and where to put the d-pad and the other bottons that are on the sub? don't you think if it were that easy they would have - it would have been a much easier sell, but thankfully most of games only require the PS Move and only a few the sub/DS3 and one the 2nd Move.

talk about straw-clutching in comparisons.

 

[scently]

I posted this in the other thread but I thought I should put it here because of its future possibilities to allow handicapped people to enjoy video games.

Here is the full patent filling for kinect.
http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-adv.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&p=1&S1=20100199228.PGNR.&OS=dn/20100199228&RS=DN/20100199228

One of the patents is for the detection of sign languages.

 

[ShadowRunner]

I really do wonder if the reason they didnt include an analogue nub on each wand is just down to patent issues. I cant see a good reason not to. Im sure they could have came up with a nub that could be depressed to function as a button like the current configuration aswel.

 

[patsu]

I posted this in the other thread but I thought I should put it here because of its future possibilities to allow handicapped people to enjoy video games.

Gah... people who can't speak can already use the traditional pad or Wiimote+ to play today (Buttons and triggers, special keyboard, or on-screen menu). Using sign language will slow things down.

Btw, I think there is a following of handicapped people in Playstation Home too. I see their posts from time to time.

 

[scently]

Gah... people who can't speak can already use the traditional pad or Wiimote+ to play today (Buttons and triggers, special keyboard, or on-screen menu). Using sign language will slow things down.

Btw, I think there is a following of handicapped people in Playstation Home too. I see their posts from time to time.

You should remember the position of kinect is controller free so......you get what I am saying.

 

[AzBat]

Don't worry, I'm sure MS have a range of clamps and stands starting from just £29.99

edit

lol, I wasn't serious but:

http://www.thebitbag.com/2010/06/14/mad-catz-announces-kinect-accessories/

They're not the only ones. PDP will have a Kinect TV mount and stand too. Check the link for photos...

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1441492#post1441492

Tommy McClain

 

[patsu]

You should remember the position of kinect is controller free so......you get what I am saying.

Yes but they can already enjoy games today without sign language. They use keyboard and mouse to work on PCs too (like posting to a forum), not sign language. A lot of them can type faster than using gestures.

 

[scently]

Yes but they can already enjoy games today without sign language. They use keyboard and mouse to work on PCs too (like posting to a forum), not sign language. A lot of them can type faster than using gestures.

Listen one of their objectives with kinect is to bring in people, handicapped or not, who view controllers as a barrier to playing video games and some of them are more adept at using sign languages than typing.

Your argument is like saying that motion controls are not needed as we already have controllers. At the very least this presents an alternative mode of communicating information, at best it could bring in more people to gaming and help those who cannot communicate using keyboards and controllers.

Please do try to understand my point before you reply as I never said that it is the only way for the handicapped to communicate. It broadens the horizon for communication in certain instances.

 

[Squilliam]

Does anyone know how the weight and balance of the Move controller compares to the Wiimote? From the way people seem to hold the Move controller it looks more balanced in peoples hands with nice compact weight distribution for ease of rotation. Whereas with the Wiimote it seems biased towards the rear in terms of weight distribution and this is made worse by the M+ accessory.

 

[patsu]

Listen one of their objectives with kinect is to bring in people, handicapped or not, who view controllers as a barrier to playing video games and some of them are more adept at using sign languages than typing.

...future possibilities to allow handicapped people to enjoy video games.

I'm only saying they can already enjoy video games today. There is no need to wait for sign language to make it. At the current resolution, the user has to stand very/too close to the TV/camera.

If you want to bring in more audience, handicapped or not, it is very likely that the game requirements will be simplified once and for all (e.g., using multiple choice format in Jeopardy).

If it requires sign language explicitly, then perhaps the game may be communication heavy (like PS Home). And yes, it'd be good for a certain group of people. Then again, it's not difficult to write the words on screen too using a controller (touch screens on so many devices, Move, etc.) or bare hands.

 

[scently]

I'm only saying they can already enjoy video games today. There is no need to wait for sign language to make it. At the current resolution, the user has to stand very/too close to the TV/camera.

If you want to bring in more audience, handicapped or not, it is very likely that the game requirements will be simplified once and for all (e.g., using multiple choice format in Jeopardy).

If it requires sign language explicitly, then perhaps the game may be communication heavy (like PS Home). And yes, it'd be good for a certain group of people. Then again, it's not difficult to write the words on screen too using a controller (touch screens on so many devices, Move, etc.) or bare hands.

Wow. You sure do know how to argue. Well then, they might as well just give up on the Whole initiative since their are alternatives.

Anyway this is the last post I am making on this subject. It seems rather pointless to keep talking about it.

 

[patsu]

Wow. You sure do know how to argue. Well then, they might as well just give up on the Whole initiative since their are alternatives.

Anyway this is the last post I am making on this subject. It seems rather pointless to keep talking about it.

??? I didn't say it's redundant. I said we don't have to wait for it. There are many alternatives. They are in use today. The developers won't wait for the tech if they are mindful of accessibility.

A simple button press, a quick gestures that everyone should suffice. With better technologies, we may be able to do it quicker and more naturally. But don't ignore the current solutions.

 

[goonergaz]

erm, I don't want to add fuel, but Kinect can't even do finger recognition (unless maybe you have to stand there making a sign for 10 secs while it figures out what sign you're making in 'sign mode') so IMHO this is all about is stopping others from doing it.