Star Wars Discussion Thread (Movies, Books, Plotholes, etc)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Picao84, Dec 14, 2017.

  1. Sigfried1977

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    Bingo
     
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  2. WhiningKhan

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    If this indeed changes the game in a way that spares us ever seeing another Death Star incarnation made by the imperials, I'm quite happy. The track record of capital ships and planet killers is pretty crappy already, and basically every movie has been based on the idea that a small group of individuals acting on pure faith can find a way to overcome the bad guys, so this fits the picture quite well.
    But I believe that from the script writer's POV, the act of performing a suicide attack is the key here. Remember that in this illogical mess called the SW universe, it seems impossible to make any computer-controlled weapons, let alone guided missiles, even though AI-capable droids and drones are everywhere. So, if we ever see the hyperdrive-ramming again, the writers are going to reserve it as a desperate last-resort option only.
     
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  3. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
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    Finally got around to watch Last Jedi, and it was really REALLY good, I thought. Some minor complaints perhaps, but on the whole, really good enjoyable movie. I was largely unmoved by Rogue One, which I felt was pointless without much happening in it, but this one was far better in just about every single way. Far better than Episode VII as well I might add.

    My criticisms are generally fairly minor generally, but the main one would be that the overall formula still largely follows the arc of the first trilogy, although not nearly as slavishly as the previous episode, and
    Snoke was dealt with far too easily considering how powerful he's supposed to be. ...Although, it does set up Ren as the prime badguy going forward, which is perhaps more frightening and interesting. And it does also depart from the format of the original trilogy, so perhaps episode IX will be even less like episode VI than episode VIII was like V... Still with me? :lol:
    Kylo Ren btw, what a magnificient villain. So masterfully portrayed, IMO, both dangerous and erratic, without going overboard into comedy. Although I must say I agree with Rey - put on a friggin shirt, dude... That scene was more unsettling than anything else in the movie. :lol:

    I also couldn't help noticing that the Empire New Order continues the fine, old tradition of hiring British as officers... Hehe.

    Also, I loved seeing Carrie Fisher again... It was so good, her whole performance, and again, just seeing her... Damn. The quip about her hair, I wonder if she wrote it herself or maybe adlibbed it on the spot. It has a very Fishery tone to it. :)

    Long movie, I felt it in my butt, but it wasn't an overly long movie, if you get what I mean. It didn't feel overstuffed or stretched (to me); there was a reason for it all I felt, which just meant that more movie = more good = better.

    Not too much silly humor either, just about the right amount I would say for a Star Wars movie. Like, I was afraid the Porgs would be making themselves a nuisance in almost every scene on the island (and moving forwards), but their presence is actually fairly restrained. I actually came to quite like them... They absolutely added to the experience.

    So yeah... 9/10 maybe? I think that's just about right actually.
     
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  4. eloyc

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    ^I'm glad you liked it, but... you like it so much (a 9/10!) that it almost looks like trolling, bearing in mind that almost everyone disliked it or have a lot of criticism towards it. You are not trolling, aren't you? :lol:
     
  5. iroboto

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    i was not impressed by the film. Having watched Ep 7 and 8 now. I really want to give back kudos to George Lucas for SW 1 - 3. He wrote new stories. All new characters etc. All new everything.
    If Rey took his hands and it was all about the dark side from here on out and then a series into the darkness; Kylo ren would be following through on that statement made on ROTJ by Vader. That would have been masterful for me to see at that point where the series goes.
     
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  6. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
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    Nope... I just enjoyed this movie for what it was. Silly sometimes, dark and brooding at other times. The tone of Last Jedi felt a lot like Empire, which was also quite dark much of the time. I don't mind that other people have criticized it - nor do I really care that they have either tbh. :p People are allowed to have opinions of their own, it's OK to think something sucks.

    Where's Lando, though? I've been wanting to see Billy Dee Williams show up on screen for two movies now. Don't Disney want the coolest scoundrel in the galaxy in these fancy new starwars movies? :p
     
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  7. BRiT

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    No, they're going to have him in the Han Solo filler movie next year.
     
  8. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    The hacker dude is Lando.
     
  9. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
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    A, his name wasn't Lando, and B, Lando was a few shades darker than this hacker, and C, Lando was a scammer and a cheat, not a hacker anyhow. So I'd have to say "no" to that.

    That's a prequel, and from all I've heard Williams won't be in it.
     
  10. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    I don't mean it like that. But as per your original commentary. It was 'empires' like. Yea
    Finn is basically Han. Hacker dude is very much like Lando. And for same reasons. Sure the characters are different, its following teh same format for me. TFA was basically A New Hope. TLJ is basically The Empire Strikes Back.

    While the stories aren't identical, it's hard not to see the parallels the entire time I'm watching. I can't come up with the words, but it just feels like i'm watching the same stories... but from a different point of view.
     
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  11. rcf

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    In my opinion that pretty much applies to 99.9% of hollywood movies.
     
  12. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
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    Ah, right. Yes, that is true, you could see it that way,
    only that Lando in this movie isn't the basically good man that the real Lando turned out to be, when he turned on the Empire.

    I was also thinking how brave and magnificient of the film makers it would have been if Rey had joined Ren in the throne room, but that's also the kind of thing that makes movie-goers feel betrayed, so I can understand they didn't go that way.
    Still, that said, you need heroes to be heroes in a movie about heroes and villains, even if the heroes are flawed and conflicted...

    Arguably, the flawed and conflicted heroes are much more interesting than the pure-hearted ones, which is why Han Solo is a more memorable character than the real main character of the original Star Wars, Luke Skywalker. Madmartigan was also a more interesting character than that of Willow, in the movie of the same name. And so on. :)
     
  13. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    it was a play on obiwan's words lol.
     
  14. 3dilettante

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    I think that would be one of the top ways they'd write themselves into a corner with a question of "OK what do we do now?". That would leave everything as a foregone conclusion.
    Even so, "what do we do now" is still a major sticking point I have with The Last Jedi, although a big chunk of that was brought about due to external factors and events no one could anticipate.

    I thought the movie was nice, but I'm really kind of left uncertain as to what they can do with Star Wars going forward.
    There's a number well-crafted elements, and things I wish they had more of. I'm sympathetic to some of the common criticisms with regards to some of the side plot handling and some of the plot contrivances, although for the most part I guess I'm not that invested or perhaps didn't build enough head-canon to have shattered to get the kind of vitriol some have.

    Some of the things wasted or ruined are kind of things I already thought were kind of lame with Star Wars in general, so it didn't bother me as much.
    That said, there are some things that as handled in the movie sort of took me out things, and though I can sort of bring my own interpretation or think of ways they could have been adjusted to be less jarring to me, an attempt to rationalize the movie doesn't make what is there not jarring.
    Some of the "it's rationalized in this comic or in this side compendium" stuff doesn't fly with me.

    What I do fear is that some of the criticism that find the The Last Jedi as a target is on things that were set up by The Force Awakens or are structural outcomes to Disney's approach, rather than the writer/director of the current film (although he might have been a bit too contrarian).
    There were stories indicating that Disney started to rewrite The Last Jedi when Rey, Fin, and Po were so readily embraced by the audiences. Disney wasn't intending to maintain a trilogy in the same sense as the prior two trilogies. I think it's possible some of the "shoehorned" characters might have been part of what was originally planned before Disney needed to be clued into the idea that people might like to see the arc of the characters they were just introduced to.

    Disney's idea seems to be more like calling a stretch of Marvel MCU movies released sequentially a trilogy, even though each has different arcs, protagonists, and narrative voice. I don't know if that's the best call here.
    Some of the other letdowns were things set up in the Force Awakens that were literally set up as mysteries just to make mysteries--with no planned revelation or care as to what mess that leaves the next writer to clean up.
    The director said there was no plan for anything that might have to carry over when he started, and the industrial pipeline for the production doesn't give much breathing room. The choice to leave no time elapsed also probably gave little time for the universe to breathe.
    The end of the current film also takes things so far down the path of "OMG they're all screwed (all ten of them)" that I have a hard time imagining where they can turn things around. It's almost leaving no room but another reboot or beginning because there's not that much left. (edit: In its defense, I think the prior movie took care of something like 99.999% of the necessary numerical losses).

    One thing about the visual metaphor that it's an homage to World War 2 in space is that I think the capital ship stuff actually went from air combat to some kind of naval or artillery bombardment, with shots arcing in space. Perhaps it's a bit on the nose, but a laser shot that runs out of stamina and spatters limply down on its target sort of serves as a visual shorthand for a premise that seems tired.

    That aside, did anyone kind of get an anime vibe from this? Some of the shots were stylized and reduced to an almost crystalline time freeze that it felt like one of those near freeze-frame shots in an anime episode. Some of the stilted and inscrutable character behaviors and willingness to not entirely handle loose ends reminds me of that as well.
    I think this movie did better with time and space versus J.J. Abrams' habits to shrinking everything down to the same city block and one or two ill-defined hours for the sake of neato shots, generally. Perhaps some things in its stead are bad habits of the director, but I haven't seen his other movies.

    There's a bunch of other scenes and things I wish were smoothed over, or what I think could have been handled differently, but that might go on forever and I don't think I could exhaustively list them without going over someone else's list or re-viewing, and I sort of don't know if I feel up to more Star Wars right now. In all fairness to this film, that's something I was kind of hoping this film could turn around, but I'm not sure it did--or necessarily could.



    I know trailers often come out before a lot of production work is done, so effects might not be final.
    The original movie did do a few things to help counteract limitations to the CGI, given a lot water, rain, and nighttime.
    There was a daytime shot that did sort of look fake with the Striker fight that was kept as a news broadcast on a small screen to help keep some of the lack of detail hidden.

    I also think the original movie kept to a few major set pieces, and got more budget for extra polish and practical sets than its final box office gross would justify for a sequel.
    The movements of the Jaegers do seem like they don't have the ponderous weight of the originals, which is perhaps one of the more subtle cues that can really impact how they are perceived.
     
    #94 3dilettante, Jan 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  15. MfA

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    Then why make Poe so unlikable? They should have made a Scooby gang movie with those three if they thought this (not just with Fin in a useless sideplot). They've been copying the original trilogy so slavishly ... should have copied that as well.
     
  16. 3dilettante

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    If the reports were accurate, it could be that Disney didn't intend to focus much on the first three heroes in the second movie, and then didn't necessarily know how to use them when the focus was changed. Splitting them off on their own would have sapped momentum from the main movies given the popularity of those characters, and it seems there was a later decision to give Rian Johnson his own separate set of movies instead.

    Perhaps the rewrites weren't that extensive, but it was indicated one character was dropped and several others made more like background characters.

    I had assumed keeping those original heroes as a focus and having them play off each other was a given, but maybe that wasn't the plan.

    One weird example of how a later movie can change how one remembers the previous:

    The part where Po lampshades the fact that The Force Awakens left out interaction between him and Rey. I had somehow forgotten or missed that, and in retrospect that's kind of an annoying omission. That would be like Luke somehow didn't ever talk to Han in A New Hope.
     
  17. MfA

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    That sounds rather incredible. They copied the deathstar, they copied hoth, they slightly modified the father/son mechanic yet the one thing they never intended to copy was the tight group of protagonists? Why? It seems unlikely that it was to suppress star status salaries. They almost certainly have contracts to keep their salaries low for at least three movies, probably more.

    I see now why they copied so much, everything slightly new sucks (well, I liked the concept of Fin I guess, but they didn't do much with that).
     
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  18. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
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    Is this part of some new internet trend which I don't understand, perhaps to slag off Disney; alternative-spelling the main characters' names - Po...? Fin?!

    What! :lol:
     
  19. 3dilettante

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    There was a spate of reporting on this in early 2016.
    One of the theories came from Disney wanting a tight release schedule, which led to significant overlap of filming and releasing the reboot with the pre-production of the current film.
    Disney shaved off a year from the cadence of the prior trilogies (and the reporting for 8 was that it actually delayed shooting to do rewrites in 2016), and since Abrams opted out of further direction initially Disney went with a Marvel-like approach of handing individual movies off to different directors/writers.

    From interviews, it seems like coordination was light and a number of the things fans were hyped up about going from 7 to 8 were essentially done with no real determination as to what the payoff would be.
    Some of the details surrounding the original plot might align with parts of the Poe arc, and the rumors in 2016 of an new character being added might match Rose.

    For Episode 9, with the death of Carrie Fisher and firing of the director in the midst of supposed rewrites, we see Disney pushing back the planned release by 6 months despite a huge chunk of the story being blown up and the main creative being booted. Now there's the divided opinions on 8.
    Not a sign Disney's giving things time to breathe or that it's necessarily focused on how things work together holistically.
    The trend of handing off movies to up and coming directors appears to be backfiring on Disney, given it's walking back a number of its choices for the franchise and its spin-offs.

    The flip side of this, at least for me, is that most of what's not new is kinda played out, or not that great.
    Star Wars is as tropey as anything and is an admitted homage/copy of the stories Lucas liked when he was young.
    The world he built had enough legs to make it through a trilogy that generally held up, but the original trilogy's themes generally hit all the beats there were to hit, and the world became increasingly claustrophobic with nowhere to go with the prequels.
    The sequel trilogy has as its source material the prior movies, which were somewhat repetitive or spiraling inward already.
    Going for a MCU approach after nuking most of the stories accumulated in its expanded universe also leaves things spread thin.

    I keep forgetting what the exact spellings are. The name choices are all monosyllabic with multiple valid homophones, they're not that memorable to me, and they only gave one of the heroes a last name.
     
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  20. Malo

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    Box office results indicate that none of the stupid writing, rushed filming, director changes or any of the issues seem to matter at all. Throw some money at good effects, bring back old actors for nostalgia and make billions. Easy.
     
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