Star Wars Discussion Thread (Movies, Books, Plotholes, etc)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Picao84, Dec 14, 2017.

  1. 3dilettante

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    There's still an established fan base and cultural cachet around the franchise. It's not high art, but I think 7 or 8 are generally well-made, have good spectacle, and are mostly decent to good along other metrics, with some potentially significant weaknesses internal to them or in the context of a trilogy--at least to me personally.
    Some of it is no-win, not with a lot of conflicting head-canon built up that no coherent film could satisfy, or demands that something feel like a decades-old franchise while being new. The division around the latest films seems kind of excessive to me, but perhaps I haven't invested enough into the whole thing.

    Disney was probably pleased with how 7 seemed to indicate enthusiasm was still strong or was rekindled, but the drop-off for 8 despite the numbers still being high in an absolute sense may be concerning. That might not give them the sort of synergies they'd want to justify paying billions for the IP.
     
  2. ToTTenTranz

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    The movie is heavily socio-politically charged towards Grall's tastes. I was expecting that he would give it a very high score, as people wishing to see their side of politics everywhere are seemingly willing to excuse all the constant red herrings, plot holes, continuity errors and general nonsense.
    Rich-(mostly-white)-people-are-bad sideplots, PETA commercials, empire first-order composed of comically-stupid white males, invincible Ma-Rey Sues and emasculated former (white male) heroes? Some people will gobble that up as much as you feed them.
    Even if it also means:
    dumbing down your sole black and previously-interesting character by turning him into visually-degrading comic relief. And your sole hispanic previously-interesting character into an irresponsible jerk who now seems always willing to send his colleagues to certain death... only to get slapped by one strong female leader, later properly put in his place by another strong female leader and then shot by the first strong female leader.

    The movie is made to please someone other that Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson... and that's Grall.

    Just like there are people who enjoy Star Wars: No Men Allowed.


    There's plenty of guided missiles and computer-controlled weapons in the Star Wars lore.




    That said,
    Leaving the captains inside the ships to die when the Rebellion's first two cruisers run out of fuel is just a weak plot device to give Hodor the power to destroy the Supremacy in an act of majestic sacrifice (purple-haired strong female leader couldn't go out in any other form). Just like the never-before-seen weaponization of hyperspace kamikaze.



    It doesn't seem to be the case. In fact, I see things looking pretty grim at the moment.

    After the success of The Force Awakens, ep. VIII was always going to get a huge first-time viewership. Disney / LucasFilm could release a 90-minute long still image of a turd with John Williams soundtrack and it would still make hundreds of millions domestically and a similar amount in Europe. The professional reviewer ratings are the real oddity here, but those have been largely disconnected from general public opinion many times, for quite some time.
    Here are some facts about the current state of Star Wars:

    - The Last Jedi is the Star Wars movie with the steepest decline in viewership, prequels included. Star Wars fans went to see the movie at the theatre, but then they didn't go back to see the movie again, like they did 2 years ago.


    - Before the Disney acquisition, the franchise's main source of revenue was merchandise. Right after TLJ, Star Wars toys weren't selling well. And today? They're not selling. And I mean they're really not selling:



    - Star Wars videogames... well they gave exclusive rights to EA, who within >5 years managed to release one mediocre Battlefront game, cancel a story-driven game mid-production and recently.. Well they released a franchise-tarnishing clusterfuck so large it got government regulation entities from all over the world starting to research into their monetization system.
    Mistrust for Star Wars in the gaming world is at an all time high, by far. I don't even know how EA can mend this.


    - China, a market Disney was so desperately trying to shove Star Wars into because it's the soon-to-be largest cinema and merchandising market in the world, was a total disaster. It lost to the second sequel of a romantic comedy on the release weekend and completely pulled from theaters only 2 weeks after release. Chinese reviewers claim it insults the IQ of its audience. As a comparison, The Force Awakens sold almost twice as much tickets.
    China's reception on TLJ tells you exactly how much the movie is worth without the nostalgia factor, which is very little. Even Rogue One sold better.
    In fact, TLJ was received so poorly in China that Disney is taking the Star Wars name out of the Solo movie in that market.


    - Speaking of Solo, the movie is releasing in 5 months and there's no trailer, no poster, no stills, nothing. So far, there's only news of directors scrambling in that movie (clear sign of movie development hell) and rumors of acting couches being on set for the main actor and Disney already being prepared to write off the movie.




    So to be honest, Star Wars as a franchise isn't looking good IMO. Kids aren't getting into Star Wars, and the new movies seem awfully intent on driving away the nostalgia-driven adults. It makes sense. My daughter and all my friends' kids only have Star Wars toys/clothes because we gave them as unsolicited presents, and not because they asked for it.
    At the same time, Disney is building not one but two Star Wars theme parks and it looks like by the time they open the doors in 2019, they will be met with kids who don't care about Star Wars and grown-ups who have grown apart from the franchise.
    TLJ got a historical decline in viewership and I've never seen so many former fans saying they don't really care about what happens next. I considered myself a die-hard Star Wars fan until 2 months ago, and I honestly don't care about what happens in Ep. IX either.
     
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  3. 3dilettante

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    There's a long tradition for that one, going back to the original movies.
    The Empire was portrayed as an amalgam of British naval officers prone to lapses of judgement and hubris and goose-stepping mindless white-covered storm troopers.

    The expanded universe and the surrounding media portrayed the Empire as being a human-supremacist organization, and the sequel trilogy's treatment of the First Order was just a more unsubtle rendition of the already unsubtle and sometimes overtly stated characterization of the Empire in the original trilogy. The stormtrooper angle was only somewhat retconned with the clones of a New Zealander of partial Maori descent in the prequels, but those seemingly faded from use by the time of the original movies--and instead included the specter of eugenics.

    Vader didn't force-choke officers for no reason, and the troopers were crazily ineffective.
    Nevermind the irony that Vader as the notable black character of the Empire turned out to be pasty on the inside... ;)
    The rebels in contrast were more varied in terms of species as the original trilogy progressed, and gave a number of minority pilots in Episode 6 screen time for their immediate deaths.

    At least people have moved on to this current case of political correctness, versus what I recall happened when a segment of the Internet flipped their lid the instant John Boyega took his helmet off in the Episode 7 trailer.



    I saw this more as a continuation of the movie's furthering the WWII air-combat motif to include WWII naval combat, and the idea of a captain going down with the ship. I noted earlier that I felt including the naval component had a certain visual exhaustion to it, as things kind of get lobbed and drop listlessly down on their target.
    I personally feel that taking the theme that far is problematic given that precludes a fair amount of the kineticism of aerial combat and makes some of the wonky gravity in space stuff already in Star Wars more obvious.

    The lightspeed tracking and kamikaze method actually make me this was partly a cribbing of Abrams' Star Trek, with the former being a sort of "impossible tech that wrecks a bit of the universe" like the interstellar transport tech coupled with a bit of the "hacker from within" from Into Darkness. The latter is quite like the Kelvin scene in the reboot. If Abrams could crib the destruction of Vulkan for Episode 7, I guess Johnson could crib some more. Alternately, the kamikaze theme might carry over from how the Executor was taken out in Episode 6, a ratio of attacker to victim even more outsized.

    I've seen comments about people likening the fleet stuff in some ways to Battlestar Galactica, presumably the rebooted version. I haven't really watched the old or new versions of that to comment, but the irony if that were being copied from by Star Wars would be rich.

    The fuel angle also goes with the WWII naval trope, but this angle further portrays a level of technological weakness that the old motif avoided. One it makes movement like fleet movement in water, which makes even less sense than air combat in space. It makes Leia's survival scene--already iffy--even less likely since outracing the First Order means the ships would need to be constantly accelerating and would have left her behind in an instant.

    The technical consistency, or the rules of the Star Wars movies are pretty weak, but the latest movies and Episode 8 in particular do take it to a greater level of inconsistency that might break even the most generous bounds.
    Shields are inconsistently applied, getting Leia back into the non-decompressed hall seemed to be poorly explained in-movie, and the whole chase mechanic doesn't make much sense in space since being faster means creating an ever-widening distance, not being slightly ahead--and it was pointed out that there were plenty of ships in the pursuit fleet to hyperspace ahead of everything.

    I actually don't quite mind the hyperspace kamikaze bit, since it apparently required the biggest ship in the galaxy to stand still and even then the cruiser was way off-center. I wouldn't mind that it would be devastating to one ship, which for one makes a nice ceiling for stupid super-ships, but the pretty but over-the-top anime freeze shot took it to a silly degree. I think that might be a habit of the director. Hyperspace exploitation figured into how Starkiller base functioned, and I'm not entirely sure if some element of that type existed in the now-wiped expanded universe.

    It's a side effect of trying to raise the stakes in a universe nearly topped out already, and I think perhaps an element of the director's style.
    The handling of Poe's "arc" actually makes me think of a clunky cartoon or anime character plot, in no small part because his moment of learning his lesson is contrived by having him interpret from Luke's actions something Luke really should have just told them.

    On the other hand, they are kind of aligned when it came to Episode 7--which had a fair number of such criticisms.

    Which, in my opinion, means there's something aside from film quality or political commentary involved. I would not rate the structure or handling of the technical details of Episode 8 below the prequels, and the Iraq War, fascism, and democracy parallels were strident for the prequels.
    I think it may be a combination of some of that, coupled with Star Wars in general not having much runway left.

    The movies could have gone in a different direction, and I suspect the microtransactions rush plus EA being EA would have still done this.

    Though the worldwide gross for things like Transformers doesn't seem like it's a primary factor--although the most recent Transformers movie didn't do as well. I haven't watched much beyond some of the first, so I don't know what would have changed for the last one, aside from the formula being described as very stale.
    If it's a desire for more intelligent cinema, then good on China. It may be that big AAA-level Hollywood may be saturating, or some other trend separating assumption from reality in that market.
    Oftentimes, with a language barrier it's not subtlety that wins internationally as opposed to more visual humor or spectacular set pieces.
    I'd think the more annoying element would be the pseudo-new age adoption of some eastern concepts or tropes for balancing the force or other things--although that transition started with the prequels and carried into the new ones.

    I haven't seen any indication that it's for any social or political controversy. It seems like the original creatives, hired in a similar vein to the MCU-like approach to the others, wanted a comedic version of Han Solo that Disney took a fair amount of time to push back on. In this regard, Disney's choice in giving as much leeway to a set of directors with divergent narrative voices is oddly discordant with the desire to have a predictable corporate-friendly cinematic output.

    edit: spelling
     
    #103 3dilettante, Jan 29, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  4. eloyc

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    Even though I share some of your points of view, I managed to enjoy the movie. Does that make me the things you think about Grall, too?
     
  5. ToTTenTranz

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    The relevant term is comically-stupid. Just compare Hux to Tarkin from Ep. IV and Krennic from Rogue One. Both were flawed and overconfident, but Hux is just hopelessly stupid to the point of being used as comic relief several times in TLJ. It isn't even the same character as the one we met in Ep. VII.
    In TFA he's a ruthless tactician who goes head-to-head with Kylo Ren in getting Snoke's approval.
    In TLJ he's retconned to whiny little bitch.


    Who did? What segment?
    All I remember is seeing headlines claiming that them racists were making an uproar about a black main character in Star Wars, but then said articles would lead to no source except for a single tweet or 4chan post with racist remarks. Both of which could have been planted by the headline makers.
    Honest question. I'll be happy to be proven wrong here.

    I really disagree here.
    By taking down all of the expanded universe, there's room for dozens of interesting stories to tell around the Star Wars galaxy, from the Thrawn stories all the way to the Old Republic and Revan's/Bastilla's saga. Disney can simply rehash these stories on the big screen and they have enough content to entertain their audiences for decades. That's why they took everything away from canon.

    And despite my previous post, the political commentary is not the main reason for the disgrace IMO. It's the terrible writing, continuity errors, the belittling of old and beloved characters.

    My commentary was about the franchise and the games are in the state I described. There's no way around the fact that Star Wars is a bad word in gaming right now.


    Or the movie is just a mediocre movie without the nostalgia value, especially for an audience who couldn't care less for the gender politics, animal cruelty theme and rich-people-are-bad theories.


    For Solo? Neither did I. I didn't suggest that.

    I simply wrote why I think Grall gave it a 9/10. I never suggested everyone who likes any little thing about the movie is like Grall.
    I think the movie is a nice entertainment too, despite being terrible as Star Wars and most of all terrible for Star Wars.
     
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  6. 3dilettante

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    There's the snide officer (Motti) in Episode 4, whom gets to be choked first for being a snide prick. Admiral Ozzel in Episode 5, whom gets choked for tactical incompetence.
    I'll let Captain Needa's execution for letting the Falcon escape later in that movie slide as being more a victim of Vader's
    I've gone into how I think there are structural and circumstance reasons for why consistency between the movies in the pipeline is haphazard.

    On the other hand, Episode 8 dialed him back from trying to hit the same vocal performance notes as a Hitler rally.


    A mixture. One part is composed of the usual resident trolls in youtube comments and various chans, which exist.
    #BlackStormtrooper was in part prodded by those trying to stir it up, and the "must have stole the suit" jokes flow from people that probably existed.

    The more interesting element to me was a set of commentators that apparently grew up on the prequels and said that there couldn't possibly be a black stormtrooper since they were all supposedly white clones.
    Now, I noted earlier that the clones were those of someone who was half-Maori, but I think the misconception is one illustrative of what the Empire has long been portrayed as.

    My understanding as to their reasoning for nuking the whole of the expanded universe was that it would have been too much of a mess to navigate, and that Disney preferred product it had more explicit control over in terms of sales and brand focus in their cinematic universe.

    This may go to which lines we have personally that each movie may or may not cross. I think a big chunk of the poorer situation has been there for far longer than the current movie, and perhaps I don't care about certain characters the same way to feel that there was a betrayal that deep.

    I feelings were that there were elements of the movie that put it a tic above mediocre, as a nice but a notably flawed work. I see the nostalgia crutch as being something needed systemically for the whole Disney endeavor. It seems likely many of the tropes thrown in may not resonate for Chinese audiences--including the nostalgia one.
    My interpretation is that nostalgia is a significant factor for the sequel movies, and some reporting surrounding the pullout from the Chinese market relay marketing firm finding that the more limited exposure of the franchise there historically plays into the trend. Episode 7, Rogue One, and Episode 8 have a consistent decline versus territories where Star Wars has more nostalgia cachet propping up the main sequel films.
    I think the reboot film had the benefits of novelty and contagious hype, which Disney did manage pretty well. I'm not sure Star Wars in general had more to offer past that point, and I agree some of those elements seemed tacked on or handled poorly.

    The gender thing may be more complicated, depending on the accuracy of the rumors concerning rewrites.
    If Disney truly missed the idea that the main cast should have been the main focus throughout, I think it's possible that the larger female presence may have had to do with what Johnson wanted in the original script. Whether having more female cast alone means gender politics isn't clear to me, since the rumor was that Disney prompted the reduction of the female fraction.

    I guess that's where people can have differing opinions. The prequels crossed thresholds I have that I consider more detrimental to my experience than the problems in the sequels.
    There were some scenes or plot points in Episode 8 that I truly wish they had done more with, and which I like better than whole swaths of the prequels.
     
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  7. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
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    Oh please. I just watch a movie like Star Wars Episode X like the saturday matinée type movie it is, without going headfirst overboard into deluded, deranged MRA territory like you are. Try it some day, it will be liberating for you.

    Failing to convince you (as I know I will), I think I'll go find a Rose whatshername action figure to buy just to piss you off.

    Ozzel.
     
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  8. ToTTenTranz

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    None of those were in the same hierarchy level as Tarkin, who stood side-by-side with Vader and even ordered him to stop choking Motti in Ep.IV.
    In Ep VII Hux goes side-by-side with Kylo in the chain of command. And this is obviously needed because Kylo behaves like an immature hothead most of the time, so Hux is there to be the brains while Kylo goes into the field to be the brawn.

    This is completely retconned in Ep. VIII by making Hux the subject of comic relief through the prank call at the beginning, then by being thrown around by Snoke's hologram, then Snoke himself belittles him saying he's stupid but he's still around because he's loyal, then by hesitating on shooting an unconscious Kylo Ren just to create another stupid comic relief, etc.


    What was the need for that?
    Are we supposed to forget how dictators/oppressors speak to an audience? Or are we now forbidden from using such tone in fantasy?


    Therefore, there's enough leeway to scramble those stories and re-sell them again as canon with slight changes.


    Again: Rogue One performed better and Ep. VII performed much better.
    From the comments I've seen from chinese posters and comments, TLJ is poor for the chinese market and culture for the sum of the following reasons:

    1 - No nostalgia value.

    2 - The chinese often give a lot of importance to training, dedication and effort. Look at (arguably) China's greatest kung fu movie of the last decade, Ip Man, and you'll see the main character spends a large portion of his screen time training alone, punching wooden sticks, despite being established as a master from the beginning. In Ep. VIII there's a double-down on Ma-Rey Sue's untrained abilities. Where Ep. VII left the question open about her having been trained with no memory of it, and heavily implied she came from Force Jesus descent (Anakin's lightsaber called out to her), Ep. VIII made sure to rub on everyone's faces that Rey is like that just because.

    3 - Fighting choreography is scarce, and the few that exist are just really poor compared to what they see in chinese movies. They're incredibly poor even when compared to the prequels. Have you seen anything remotely like this in the new trilogy?


    4 - The chinese audience openly appreciates "beautiful actors" in their movies, in the way they enjoy the sexualization of both male and female characters (they live in a #gasp# sex-positive society!). Female characters in the new Star Wars movies are as de-sexualized as possible. Every tick of sexuality must be hidden beneath baggy clothes or monkey suits. Leia's and Padme's sexualities were celebrated within their wardrobes and actions. Daisy Ridley is told to dess like a man. When talking about Carrie Fisher's casting for Leia George Lucas said "I did not want to put boy's clothes on a woman. I wanted a woman who was a woman, who was very strong, and wise, and a leader." The prequels followed the same line of thought, according to Natalie Portman.
    The new episodes are a complete regression in terms of freedom of sexuality IMO. And the chinese audience reception just proves it further.
    And Kelly Marie Tran... well... let's just say the chinese audience doesn't think she's beautiful or attractive. Nor most of the western audience, if I had to guess.

    5 - It's a movie that tries really hard to defy tropes, in a country that doesn't acknowledge said tropes, so that part obviously falls into vacuum.

    6 - The movie lacks action and color, which the chinese audience also openly appreciates. Save for the kamikaze scene (10 seconds?), there's little action and color throughout the movie.


    Again, it's the sum of these factors plus maybe some others. I know other Star Wars movies from any of the trilogies share some of these faults, but none of them puts these all together.


    I'm really curious about this statement.
    How could Rian Johnson introduce an even larger female presence in this movie? Save for killing off Finn and/or Poe right at the beginning and transitioning their roles entirely to Rose Tico, what else could they do?
    At least from the Rebellion side, I just don't see how. Do you have any suggestions?

    Sure, he could have added more Phasma on the first order's side but.. that's something everyone was actually asking for..

    And exactly who do you mean by Disney here? Bob Iger? Lucas FIlm? I really doubt you're talking about Kathleen Kennedy here.


    The nice part about this is you won't get poor buying bargain bin $1 action figures...

    Feel free to link parts of films (or even EU material) that indicates Ozzel was often the subject of ridicule for comic relief.
     
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  9. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
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    ...Okay. My point was that if you stop overinterpreting a movie which was never meant for that level of nitpickery, you'd enjoy it more.

    ...Why do you care if he was or wasn't? Star Wars movies aren't meant to be taken seriously. There's lots of characters that are there for comic relief. I'd mention some if it wasn't a complete waste of my time, because you know this if you've seen the movies.
     
  10. 3dilettante

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    Tarkin's authority over Vader is effectively retconned into not making sense by the prequel trilogy's elevating Vader to a person of prophecy and the Emperor's all-important apprentice. Vader and the Sith became an all-important linchpin to the whole galaxy, whereas Episode 4 treated all this as barely remembered myth.
    I recall Snoke's reason for keeping Hux around was that a cur's weakness can be used to great effect, which I interpreted as being related to the universe-breaking hyperspace tracking and to set up more of the Ren plot.

    I wasn't sold on it having the weight needed to be taken seriously. The theme was already heavy enough throughout the series, and I found the level it was taken to in the reboot somewhat cringeworthy. If you felt Hux was whiny just in Episode 8, I found his straining to evoke that kind persona already that way in Episode 7. The clothes and military parade reinforced my impression that it was some kind of wannabe dress-up.

    I'm not saying it wouldn't be helpful in places, given the thinness of the reference pool now. The company's desire for control and setting an absolute stamp of ownership on its output appears to be preeminent.


    I meant that in particular for China that trend is consistent. In the traditional Star Wars territories, the overall slope is negative, but Episode 8 grossed more than Rogue One.

    My suspicions that Star Wars doesn't have as much to offer China align with a number of your listed points.
    I wouldn't know how to correct for the different period and polices under which the prequels released, as the disappointing results of Episode 8 are several times better than those films managed.

    I guess I wouldn't know how those films reviewed in China, but I would think from what I've seen of Chinese martial art sequences that the prequels would have been rather one-note in comparison, and the political machinations boring in Chinese as well.
    I wouldn't know how Padme's wardrobe choices would have been received. Is this mainly based on Episode 2? The other prequel films didn't strike me as playing up her sexuality.

    From the reports in 2016, Johnson's original story allegedly didn't use the cast from Episode 7 significantly. Just giving the trio that was 2/3 male primary focus involved cutting a female character and pushing several others into the background.

    One of the rumored additions was an Asian character that might have been Rose. Maybe to give the Finn something to do, maybe to hit some bullet points the producers had for the China market? I would have thought it would be cooler if Finn and Poe could go adventuring, but maybe they were afraid people would start asking why the two dudes were having so much fun.
     
    #110 3dilettante, Jan 30, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  11. zed

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    I Haven't seen The Last Jedi but underperforming! Its currently the 9th highest grossest film of all time @ $1,311.9 million dollars, when its finished it'll prolly by in the top 5.
    Its actually doing better than I thought it would be, we've had a star wars film 2015,2016,2017 and will get a couple more in 2018,2019 have you heard of the saying too much of a good thing

    prediction: the next starwars film (coming out in 5 months WTF) will gross even less, people are just burnt out. Disney are milking the franchise to death.
     
  12. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
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    Yeah, you actually CAN have too much Star Wars and superheroes. Fucksake, I wasn't expecting to say this, but it's true.

    I haven't seen either the latest Spiderman OR Thor yet, and I don't feel super excited really about either of them even though I've heard a lot of good said about both.
     
  13. ToTTenTranz

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    The way I see it, the "Vader, release him!" is much more of a "WTF are you doing killing people in a high-ranking meeting?" comment that Vader acknowledges. The canon Clone Wars and latest books show many interactions between Tarkin and Anakin/Vader where they end up having a lot of respect between each other for the qualities both possess.

    Regardless, the point is Vader would kill those who were deemed irresponsible and not up to the task. Not every officer would fit that description.
    And Vader killing/torturing officers was shown as a way to instill terror and create fear around the character. They weren't made to create comic relief like Hux is in TLJ when he squeaks like a little girl when he's attacked.

    Do you disagree that Hux's personality is fundamentally different in Ep. VII than it is in Ep. VIII?

    The prequels didn't release in China AFAIK. Western releases in chinese theaters are rather recent.


    Isn't this exactly what ended up happening in the movie?
    Finn was paired up with a female character portrayed by an asian actress and sent off on a separate adventure. Poe's presence was sidelined by Holdo's.
    Looks like the rumor you mentioned about Disney prompting the toning down of female characters is either not true or had no effect at all.



    Not according to the sources I linked...


    If you weren't going to be able to stand up for your argument, you shouldn't have made it in the first place.


    Thor Ragnarok was a straight-up action comedy that strictly follows the Guardians of the Galaxy formula.
    I'm okay with it, but I understand why others are not.
     
  14. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
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    I just don't see your point, or even that you have one in the first place. What does it matter to you that Hugs is a ridiculous character? Ozzel is equally ridiculous. Star Wars movies are full of ridiculous characters (Jar-Jar Binks is prime example.) Why are you getting hung up on this, is it because they're making fun of a man and it triggers your MRA tendencies? What? lol
     
  15. Picao84

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    If by Hugs you mean Hux, the problem is the inconsistency the character is portrayed in Episode VII and VIII, its like its not even the same person.
     
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  16. 3dilettante

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    My impression has been that his character was compensating for a level of insecurity or weakness, but it's possible it was tuned up for Episode 8. I would have to re-watch the movies, since I found Hux mostly forgettable.

    I read news stories to the effect that the prequels were screened in their respective release years to some extent, under the quota system at the time. The highest grossing prequel was was Episode 3, though I wouldn't know how to adjust for the different time period and possibly how its distribution was handled.

    I'm not proposing a binary situation. The rumored original story had two new young female characters, at least, with possibly more new supporting cast.
    I did re-check some of the original stories around the rewrite, and what I remembered as a new Asian character may have been one other female character being cast with an Asian actress.
    The discussion turned to one of them being cut and the other made secondary. I'm not sure Holdo would have counted as a young female role, so she may have been part of the original portion of the plot that was reduced in emphasis. It may also be the case that the fleet arc had less disruption, there was more speculation on Finn and Rey.

    The female cast was reduced because the rumor was that Johnson wasn't planning on using Poe, Finn, and Rey as much as the movie finally did--hence the 2/3 reference. It's difficult to keep the mix the same after cutting or sidelining a female contingent in favor of a male-majority trio.
    So when it comes to X character from Episode 7 having a weird plot point that seems like it's contrived or like they've been pushed aside, I think the rumors that it was the other way around are also consistent with the uneven writing, disconnect from the prior movie, and Disney's intervention in the middle or late production of many of its Star Wars films.
    As to why Finn had a strangely disconnected story arc with an Asian actress through a Star Wars version of Macau, perhaps some Chinese reviewers had some ideas.


    Which ones have Episode 8 grossing less than Rogue One domestically or worldwide? In China, the decline was enough to keep Episode 8 below Rogue One. The numbers I'm seeing for the films indicate other territories prevented that pattern from applying worldwide or in the US.
     
  17. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
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    Hugs was in VII? I literally have zero memory of that.

    I will however remember the new and much improved version from VIII though.
     
  18. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran Subscriber

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    (completely forgot about this thread, sorry)

    If those rumors are right, it's just another weight pointing to Rian Johnson being on a ridiculous power trip where he gets to shit on all the plot points prepared in the previous movie, emasculate decades-old fan-favorite heroes and introduce canon-breaking stuff.

    I must confess I've never seen anything about these rumors you mention, and I've been paying attention to the rumor circles.
    Where did you see these?

    Chinese reviewers had the idea of making up a story arc that revolves around marginalising one of the country's largest hobbies (gambling in casinos) using a vietnamese actress they (very vocally) don't find attractive?

    Nah.
    Unless these reviewers were actively trying to sabotage Star Wars in China, that is.

    Trailer seems to show it's largely based on the 2013 game, but they seemingly butchered it by changing the original motivation from "pursue the mysteries of my late father's life work on history and archeology" to "OMG the world is going to end and you're the ONLY one who can stop it, Lara!!!!!1111oneone".
     
    London-boy likes this.
  19. 3dilettante

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    From the stories so far, it's not so much a power trip as that the directors/writers were given very significant leeway early on, and for some reason corrections were more reactionary and not well-structured. There are other interviews where it shows that communication from one movie production to the next had limited carry-over, and apparently there wasn't an expectation of a strong narrative continuity.

    As far as carrying plot points over from the previous movie, there's communications to the effect that Abrams didn't care to structure his plot points to be salvageable.

    edit:
    The first to the overall plot points left hanging, the second indicates Johnson was given no indication from Abrams or they're in on the disappointing act together.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidi...he-last-jedi-for-disappointment/#29138b222c6d
    https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-mystery-of-reys-parentage-extends-to-the-star-wars-1820847267

    https://www.cinemablend.com/new/Why-Star-Wars-Episode-8-May-Undergoing-Rewrite-106667.html
    http://moseisleyspaceport.org/episode-8-rewrite/

    These are some of the stories I saw back in 2016. I'm trying to find some of the other rumors concerning one of the roles being removed. I'm not sure as to the timing of those, but at the same time I am not sure the role of Holdo counts as a young female role--and she's the other notable addition.

    I was thinking that having an arc in the movie that seemed to break from the main plot line would appear to Chinese reviewers as looking like pandering, sort of like how various other AAA movies find a reason to detour main characters to Hong Kong (or a big monster destroys Hong Kong) for a brief meaningless scene in order to check off marketing boxes. As to whether this is insensitive, per some of the earlier discussions I thought it was established that the showrunners have a weak understanding of the culture, so why would perfunctory script adjustments fare any better?

    If not, then perhaps it just seemed like an odd parallel to me.
    Some behind the scenes stories point to Monte Carlo being the initial impetus for the casino planet.
     
    #119 3dilettante, Feb 15, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
  20. eloyc

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    Hm... That should look good, since it's more similar to the original games, which I love, but... you make it sound so bad! :-S
     
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