*split* multiplatform console-world problems + Image Quality Debate

But there are ps4 games that aren't 1080p/60fps . Knack a first party game is one of them. BF4 is only 900p

So it seems something neither company was capable of .

If you want the best possible image to your tv for games then the answer is a pc. The new $400 r290 which costs the same as a ps4 is capable of running BF 4 at 3840x2160 with 2x MSA at 60fps
 
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Resolution matters more now than it did before. HDTVs are getting bigger and bigger and more affordable... the average size for HDTV in homes has gone up. It doesn't matter to everyone, but to simply say that it doesn't matter is wrong.

The PC argument isn't totally fair because it costs more, it's not quite as easy to setup in a HT environment for 'joe gamer' as people call him, and many people prefer the console exclusives over the PC exclusives. The PC vs console gaming experience is a matter of preference.
 
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Its interesting because many of the things you said can be applied to why a person would want an xbox one over a ps4.

They prefer the xbox one exclusives , they prefer the Kinect controls . Many might even feel based on ps 3 and xbox 360 that the psn experience is not as simple and functional as the live one.

Its weird how it works.
 
If someone prefers the Xbox One's exclusives over the PS4's and hardware doesn't matter much, why wouldn't they buy an Xbox One? I wasn't trying to argue otherwise. My point was that resolution does matter to some people. If PC isn't an option and it's between the PS4 and Xbox One, the resolution at which multiplatform games run at, or which system is capable of better visuals might be one of the deciding factors.
 
They prefer the xbox one exclusives , they prefer the Kinect controls . Many might even feel based on ps 3 and xbox 360 that the psn experience is not as simple and functional as the live one.
Yes. so make a choice on those terms. Why the noise that resolution doesn't matter?

Ppl saying the resolution of a game is immaterial is simply put : stupid.

Comparisons are bound to happen between the consoles, but resolution not mattering at all: is not normal. We have been comparing graphics card's performances for years, no body ever said resolution doesn't matter. If some one had said that , he would have been called out a fool.

Its the same here, we are comparing two hardwares, and yes, resoltuion matters as resolution is a valid IQ parameter. and this average Joe argument is moot, everyone can tell a difference between a dvd and Planet Earth Blu ray running in a TV store. We are the same humans with the same eyes, our eyes and IQ haven't suddenly nosedived because new consoles are around the corner.

no offence to anyone, this is pointed at those articles on the internet not at someone on this forum.
 
Browsing the net, its just funny to see how many articles there are claiming resolution doesn't matter.

What's funnier is the people on this very fora that argued very vocally against lazy devs when ps3 games where lacklustre now saying virtually the same thing with regard to the Xbox before it's even been released.
 
Comparisons are bound to happen between the consoles, but resolution not mattering at all: is not normal. We have been comparing graphics card's performances for years, no body ever said resolution doesn't matter. If some one had said that , he would have been called out a fool.

I used to think that as well, for years really, since I've been gaming at 1080p for many many years now as I can't stand to even look at 720p personally. But when resolution on game after game after game after game, etc, on pc was never regarded as a bonus to image quality by gamers and gaming media alike, I accepted that I was a 1%'er in my thoughts on importance of resolution. Now enough years have passed and consoles are crawling into the world of 1080p so it's shouldn't really come as a surprise to anyone that all those same claims and arguments over the years are being slowly turned towards console versions. It's all the exact same arguments, just a new target. To me the difference in 720p to 1080p is massive, to you as well perhaps. But we're just not the norm. I'm used to hearing that, been hearing it for years now. Like it or not, all console folk will have to get used to hearing the same claims now as well just like pc gamers had to in the past. It should be easier for console gamers though, at least you won't get called elitist for daring to claim resolution is important.
 
I think the following features are factors to a bigger or lesser degree. Early adopters will care more about the last two comparatively, sure. But the wider the audience, the more the first two will matter.

Exclusives (software and hardware)
Services
Performance
Price
Brand loyalty

The games and services are the most important these days, and I think that Microsoft was right there. The price of the box however (which also includes paying for services) is a big risk, and the benefit of Kinect is one for casuals before the hardcore, most of whom won't buy the box at launch. Not convincing the more die-hard fans who do of the value of it early on can be damaging, especially if it is so strongly linked to the price difference AND the performance difference.

It may well succeed, and I think they may well have made the right choice, but it's a big risk, and there is a lot of potential for failure. They appear to currently be behind on all fronts but exclusives and brand loyalty (in the US at least). But they have the potential to catch up in all areas but performance, and at least minimize performance problems as well by improving libraries and SDKs.

But obviously after having been put in a difficult situation last gen, Sony has proven to be able to be a moving target, and if this is something they keep up this gen, it's going to be a great fight to watch.

My personal opinion on 1080p is that it's a big boon when TVs have 1080p as their native resolution though, so I think that in the end, more people will notice than upscaling was noticed in previous generations. We'll see where things end up. Look forward to seeing if NFS Rivals made the same trade-offs as Battlefield 4 did, as it was just confirmed as a launch title we should find out soon.
 
I think the following features are factors to a bigger or lesser degree. Early adopters will care more about the last two comparatively, sure. But the wider the audience, the more the first two will matter.

Exclusives (software and hardware)
Services
Performance
Price
Brand loyalty

The games and services are the most important these days, and I think that Microsoft was right there. The price of the box however (which also includes paying for services) is a big risk, and the benefit of Kinect is one for casuals before the hardcore, most of whom won't buy the box at launch. Not convincing the more die-hard fans who do of the value of it early on can be damaging, especially if it is so strongly linked to the price difference AND the performance difference.
I agree with that though the line has significantly shifted between the power in presence.
Now both Sony and MSFT set a paywall on online MP though there is imho a massive difference wrt how those paywall have been implemented.
On one hand Sony policies are pretty loose, and one can do a lot of things without paying the subscription, on the other hand imo the XO is useless without paying the subscription.
So there is more to the price MSFT and Sony ask for their system and their services. MSFT put it self at a deficit in many ways. Live used to be, at least it acknowledge as such (don't know never had a gold account or tried PSN+), the superior service, where is Sony now? It would not surprise me if they caught up, we should know pretty soon.

There is more, though a speculation of mine based of unintended consequences. Sony let F2P games, if they want to by-passs the paywall for online mp gaming, I think it could have greater consequences than one think. Since it has been known that both Sony and MSFT vouched for a paywall I repeatedly raise the following issue how will your average gamer react?
I think a lot of teens (or their parents) might not be ok with an extra subscription, phones are already costly for the average family, actually once the hardcore base is served I actually expect a lot of the console users to be a bit bothered by that matter of fact. When you don't play that often paying has a really bitter taste to it.
Unintended consequences at work I wonder if Sony policies wrt to F2P may have greater consequences. It is an escape path from the paywall and I would bet a lot of users will be happy to escape it. I wonder how this will affect IPs such as BF4, COD, etc.
I wonder if planetside 2 delay is only a try to not actually hurt COD and BF sales and sort of pissed off Activision and EA. What when the average user discovers that he can no longer do a mp game every once in a while and at the same time discover that there are actually neat games that are free to play? Crytech may ships its game to the ps4 too.
I don't known purposedfully or not, SOny has opened the door to some disruption in the business model of the best selling games. I believe that people will try to escape the paywall, even if it means a "lesser" experience, worse the game are free vs 60/70$.

Shortly it is to soon to compare the merit of MSFT and SOny approaches wrt services, Sony opened a massive loophole for its user base to escape the revenue Sony plan to make. It could have a severe impact in turn on the revenue of the biggest actors in the publisher realm.
Without making hypothesis, the PS4 does a lot more things than the XO if one doesn't plan to pay a subscription. MSFT is imo taking a big risk, bigger than what you are implying. If one has no interest in Kinect and doesn't plan to spay a subscription there is no reason to buy the XO. May be MSFT is fine with that but I doubt it. The paywall is nothing new on xbox but this gen I chose the XBOX not matter the paywall because I did not care for online MP, the system was cheaper and games a lot of times a tad better. Now I don't see a reason to buy the XO, at all.
I still do not want to pay the subscription, but the system is a tad outmatched in perfs, is more costly and the competition allows free online mp in some form. and acess to other services (as simple as a browser...).
MSFT has a serious issue wrt to their value proposal, a really serious one (even though it might not show at launch /while feeding early adopters, faithful, etc.).

My personal opinion on 1080p is that it's a big boon when TVs have 1080p as their native resolution though, so I think that in the end, more people will notice than upscaling was noticed in previous generations. We'll see where things end up. Look forward to seeing if NFS Rivals made the same trade-offs as Battlefield 4 did, as it was just confirmed as a launch title we should find out soon.
Well it is noticeable especially in Europe where your average living room is half the size of its US counter part (my tv is a tad less than 2 meter from me, I've a good eyesight). But my pov is that the main issue is not the perceived difference but how it could (and imo will) affect the perceived value of the system in the eyes of potential buyers (either those reading the online press or word to mouth).
From there you can loop back to the point above, I think MSFT faces a massive deficit in its value proposal. Kinect 2 has to be hit either way, they may have to adapt pretty soon and engage in a price war (say after one year or one year and a half, I expect the issues I discuss to become apparent soon after, early adopters and fans are fed and supplies get unconstrained, so in the gran scheme of things pretty early wrt the product life).
 
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I was looking through a crytek presentation on crysis 3 and noticed they mentioned bilateral upscaling.

They didn't mention anything about the technique but I googled around and found some journals that make use of bilateral filtering for upscaling.

Apply a sharpening filter to enhance edges. Then use bilateral filtering to reduce the noise introduced by the sharpening and next upscale. The naturally blurring of upscaling and the edge enhancement basically cancel each other out and allow the upscaled image to retain the sharpness of the original.

The bilateral filtering seemed to introduce aliasing artifacts and given the noticeable sharpening of the XBO image it makes me wonders if bf4 on Xbo is doing something similar.
 
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I don't think so. It makes zero sense. The ESRAM is a working buffer - you'd no more reserve a slice of it for the OS than you'd reserve a slice of L2 CPU cache.

It actually makes sense because you have Mark Rubin complaining about a few MB here and there. I don't think for a second that having 4GB available to COD would affect its resolution, and it would have been very unreasonable of IW to actually place bets on RAM availability and use it so neck and neck and get burned by few MB changes in OS reserves from main RAM. Their engine can probably cope with 5GB instead of 6 and 4GB instead of 5. On the PC, it seems to not use more than a few GBs on the system RAM and I'm not the least bit surprised.

So if his remarks mean anything other than ESRAM reserves, it would mean he's spinning it and that he is VERY bad at it.
 
When he speaks about a couple of MB, it is unclear of which part of the memory hierarchy he is speaking about.
Such a low amount of ram is unlikely to make a difference in the main ram so I guess it is either:
CPU cache and/or scratchpad. In that context I'm not sure that the 2 vs 3 MB figure is accurate or just used as an illustration for his talk. 3MB would be insane as there is only 4MB of L2.
The whole interview is pretty "clouded" to me, it seems to me that he is speaking of a lot of OS related issues which is not surprising looking at what MSFT intends to pull up with the XO (and it is pretty neat I have to say).
My understanding is that they had a lot of issues wrt how the OS pin process to the 8 cores, the L2 occupancy, the traffic (and possibly cache trashing) generated by the said process (system and games) and how that was a moving target throughout the whole development. I would wonder if it also could affect the bandwidth available to the CPU cores and so the game by self.
For the graphics he is more than elusive about the reason why the games shipped @720p, I would bet that people assuming that they did not have time to tailor their engine to the XO, while dealing with the woes in the development of a pretty complex OS, are right. It should get better, that is my bet.
I would assume that in that pretty complex development environment (ultimately all for the best as the OS of the XO should turn into something pretty remarkable, a selling point for the system) they might have settle for putting as much RT as possible in the scratchpad so the main constrain might have been the weight of their RT and FB => cutting resolution was the safest, shortest path (and possibly the only one doable in time) to delivering the experience they wanted to deliver to costumers (which he made clear is solid 60FPS).
 
I'm wondering if the figures he is talking about either refer back to Call of Duty 2, or whether he's mixing MB and GB.
 
I can only imagine under which pressure the guy was from the executives and PR people, COD is such a critical product to Activision bottom line, speak about being a rock and a hard place :LOL:
I understand it could have been confused, not too mention his answer could be hindered by NDA, etc.

Tough job, really :LOL:
 
Thought you'd all find this amusing
LOL, :LOL: oh really? this raises suspicions as to whether graphics are important or not. I kinda prefer grap-efruits to graphics :smile:.

What's funnier is the people on this very fora that argued very vocally against lazy devs when ps3 games where lacklustre now saying virtually the same thing with regard to the Xbox before it's even been released.
At times I feel like... (oh, the whole human race. At least now we know that developers weren't limiting the PS3 intentionally, they worked with what they had when developing multiplatform games.

Even Sony admitted themselves there were some design decisions on the PS3 that didn't make life easier for developers.
 
What's funnier is the people on this very fora that argued very vocally against lazy devs when ps3 games where lacklustre now saying virtually the same thing with regard to the Xbox before it's even been released.

I thinks it ironic that when people point out kinect isn't really being used the rebuttal is you can lean or use a voice command - I would image PSeye could do both of these things.

Developers need to find interesting ways to apply Kinect, not bolt on check list type of stuff.

Eastman's example of the exercise title is somewhat interesting but it has additional monthly fees and has little utility if you don't want to work out. IMO its a fair critism to point out that at this point Kinect is doing very little to justify the additional cost of XB1 - that can of course and hopefully will change.
 
, then I don't see how your preference is more "right" than other people's preference.
Its more right, cause its more correct. i.e. its more of an accurate representation of the truth/reality.
Turning up an images contrast/saturation/sharpness etc may lead some people to think an image is better cause it packs more punch or whatever, and fair enuf beauty in the eye of the beholder etc but it doesnt make the image more correct
 
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