Splinter Cell Double Agent PS3 IGN Review..

I'm not surprise at all. Ubisoft is just another lazy developer who doesn't have what it take, to take advantage of the PS3 powerful hardware. What a sloppy job. They should just keep SC4 on the 360.

:LOL:

I wouldn't call them a sloppy dev as UBI is the publisher and the dev ... actually the dev is an unknown to me. Who did this port?

Anyway, historically, UBI (and their devs) have done well with conversions/ports and I chaulk this up to another case where the code didn't port well and the devkit didn't enable them to hit their performance target on time.

I look forward to SC5 but I thought SC4 was also nice on xb360.
 
so why spread FUD?

It isn't FUD.

Cell is significantly different design from x86 or Xenon. Thus if the devkit were equal it would still take more time to get the same code up and running on ps3. Add to this the consensus opinion that xb360 devkit/environment is easier/more efficient/better than what is currently available to ps3 devs and it becomes a very clear and repeated story.

Just like consensus among devs is Cell>Xenon.

It isn't FUD - it's fact.
 
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I'm not surprise at all. Ubisoft is just another lazy developer who doesn't have what it take, to take advantage of the PS3 powerful hardware.

Huh?! lazy?. I think they at least deserve some respect for putting an extra 5 months into it, probably against the publisher's (Ubisoft) wishes. They probably could've fixed it up given more time.

Even if the project was a complete mess (which isn't what the review says), is the personal slander really necessary? So if any game isn't perfect, do the devs really deserve to be called 'teh suxxxors!!!11!1!1'?

I guess I'm going way O.T., but I expected better behavior in this site.
 
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Ok, maybe my post was a little bit too harsh, but i still stand by what I'm saying, Ubi did a poor and sloppy job. This will only further gives the PS3 a bad image. If they're going to port a game over to another console, do it right, or don't do it at all.

I mean look at Bethesda, they did an EXCELLENT job of porting Oblivion over to the PS3. I respect developer like Bethesda.

I bet Ubi is going to screw up the PS3 version of GRAW2 too.:rolleyes:


Sorry, but i'm kinda upset right now, Ubi annoyed me:rolleyes:
 
Sorry, but i'm kinda upset right now...

I understand your frustration and it is warranted on many levels. However, Oblivion had an additional year of development time. If this game had the same, it would have likely had a similar increase in quality just like any game with additional dev time would on any system.

The good thing is it will only get better as devs become more familiar with these machines and their tools improve.

At least ps3 isn't rendering half res screens due to a limited framebuffer for it's first games. ;)
 
I've heard they're having issues with GRAW2 as well.
Still, there's no reason for calling them lazy devs. If Sony releases a CPU that is highly difficult to program and provides bad dev tools, and is not able to get a large user base, then ubi is not gonna fund games development so that ps3 versions are on par with 360 !
 
Why parrot Scooby, we have zero evidence from Ubi on the reasons, so why spread FUD?

Zero evidence on the reasons? How many possible reasons are there?

1. Ubisoft targeted the game for release at launch
2. They were unable to complete the game at launch and pushed it back
3. 5 months later they finally release the game, and it's still underperforming

Now, according to you, any suggestion at all that this is due to the Hardware, and/or Development tools is FUD? :rolleyes:

This is what happens when you have a system that is harder to develop for than your competition, this is one of the main drawbacks to the PS3 design that we have all talked about for MONTHS.

The 'evidence' is the game right in front of your eyes, and the amount of time that was required simply to get it running.

Constantly passing everything off as the developers fault is just ridiculous. Especially when the developer goes to lengths to signifigantly delay their product in order to optimize specifically for the machine. A more powerful machine should be able to run better ports.
 
Scooby_Dooby
A more powerful machine should be able to run better ports.

What happens when you siphon gasoline from a Ferrari and place it into a Mack truck? (Mack trucks are diesel) You can put some blame onto the specific hardware of the machine but only "some" because if it was the original platform the port to the XBOX360 might have suffered as much....then is it still the PS3's fault?

Its unfortunate for both fans and Ubi that this port is the way it is, could they have made the port better...sure. Was it cost effective for them to try harder, probably not and therefore the only thing you can blame the poor port is the developers because they decided to release it that way.

It will be interesting to see if/when ports from PS3 games start appearing on the Xbox360. If they continue this trend then we can push the blame onto Sony and the PS3, until then nothing indicates the PS3 is inferior to the Xbox360 and such innuendo's are merely flame bait.


Dregun
 
Zero evidence on the reasons? How many possible reasons are there?

1. Ubisoft targeted the game for release at launch
2. They were unable to complete the game at launch and pushed it back
3. 5 months later they finally release the game, and it's still underperforming

So? Does that prove anything? It can be evidence of bad bad Sony tools or that they suck at project managment. Since we don't know how does it prove anything?

Now, according to you, any suggestion at all that this is due to the Hardware, and/or Development tools is FUD? :rolleyes:

If you guy made a list of possible reasons, then fine. The problem is you two always fall back to bashing Sony and the PS3 first and say things with certainty, things you have no real clue about.

This is what happens when you have a system that is harder to develop for than your competition, this is one of the main drawbacks to the PS3 design that we have all talked about for MONTHS.

Great, how about you ignore my arguement about the good ports one more time? Good/bad ports are not proof of anything - they are just an end product of some unkown amount of work by an unknown amount of devs with known experience on a platform. How many unknowns do you need before you just say "who knows why"?

The 'evidence' is the game right in front of your eyes, and the amount of time that was required simply to get it running.

That is weak circumstantial evidence. You can come to many possible conclusions, I guess the only one you and Chef can come to is the one most negative to Sony.

Constantly passing everything off as the developers fault is just ridiculous. Especially when the developer goes to lengths to signifigantly delay their product in order to optimize specifically for the machine. A more powerful machine should be able to run better ports.

I never passed anything off, I know based on other ports that they can turn out good, bad or neutral. Learning to develop on the PS3 may be harder, but others seems to do a fine job.
 
So? Does that prove anything? It can be evidence of bad bad Sony tools or that they suck at project managment. Since we don't know how does it prove anything?



If you guy made a list of possible reasons, then fine. The problem is you two always fall back to bashing Sony and the PS3 first and say things with certainty, things you have no real clue about.



Great, how about you ignore my arguement about the good ports one more time? Good/bad ports are not proof of anything - they are just an end product of some unkown amount of work by an unknown amount of devs with known experience on a platform. How many unknowns do you need before you just say "who knows why"?



That is weak circumstantial evidence. You can come to many possible conclusions, I guess the only one you and Chef can come to is the one most negative to Sony.



I never passed anything off, I know based on other ports that they can turn out good, bad or neutral. Learning to develop on the PS3 may be harder, but others seems to do a fine job.


Lets look at the situation last gen. Xbox ports of PS2 games almost always came looking nicer and performing better (except MGS2 if i recall correctly). Back then, we could say, with certain accuracy that this was indicative that the xbox was a stronger platform than the PS2 technology wise.

Right now, sure, it probably is too early to tell. But in a lot of cases of multiplatform development, which, btw, DOES NOT MEAN ONE IS A PORT OF THE OTHER, xbox360 games are coming out stronger than PS3 ones. Arguments of what is the lead platform fall flat without evidence. And in these cases where the xbox360 version looks nicer and performs better, all other things equal (general competency of the teams, experience with the platform) the PS3 either has weaknesses that cause it to underperform, or it is simply more difficult to program for.

I don't think that the latter takes such a huge leap of faith. Many devs, even pro-sony ones, have come and said this. The fact that it uses a NUMA & heterogenous core architecture give credence to this. I don't think what you are arguing against scooby makes much sense.

In the end is it possible that PS3 games will look and perform better? Sure, some of the exclusives will undoubtedly do that. No one is arguing the system sucks. Its just, as of now, in many cases it underperforms compared to X360. I mean, shit look at the crowds in FN3. Is that a case of crappy dev team, or difficult hardware? I sure hope that the largest dev in the country (EA) should be capable of working PS3 hardware. They can't be terribly stupid can they?
 
...nothing indicates the PS3 is inferior to the Xbox360 and such innuendo's are merely flame bait...

Agreed, and vice versa.

btw - the first example of this scenario you outlined should be coming in a few months via "Dirt". From what I understand the game was targeted and optimised for ps3 so it will be interesting to see how it shapes up.

/offtopic

@Todd
Please review my post(s) again as I was pretty clear on my opinion(s) and no I don't believe it was the most negative I could possibly be. One could jump to a foolishly negative conclusion and say ps3 can't compete with xb360 and use these ports as proof. I however, have not done this in this case or any others. I have merely pointed out the most obvious reasoning for underperforming multiplat ps3 games so far.

Please, try not to be so defensive.
 
Its unfortunate for both fans and Ubi that this port is the way it is, could they have made the port better...sure. Was it cost effective for them to try harder, probably not and therefore the only thing you can blame the poor port is the developers because they decided to release it that way.

Could they afford to release it any later than april? SC 5 is due out this winter. Maybe they just ran out of time.
 
Agreed, and vice versa.

btw - the first example of this scenario you outlined should be coming in a few months via "Dirt". From what I understand the game was targeted and optimised for ps3 so it will be interesting to see how it shapes up.

/offtopic

@Todd
Please review my post(s) again as I was pretty clear on my opinion(s) and no I don't believe it was the most negative I could possibly be. One could jump to a foolishly negative conclusion and say ps3 can't compete with xb360 and use these ports as proof. I however, have not done this in this case or any others. I have merely pointed out the most obvious reasoning for underperforming multiplat ps3 games so far.

Please, try not to be so defensive.

It already exists with Virtua Tennis 3. Apparently @ 720P the X360 version looks slightly better (both look great). At 1080P the x360 has issues apparently tho.
 
tl;dr post worthy ahead

First and foremost, one has to define the moniker "more powerful hardware." A task, which would require an intricate and down to the smallest minutiae comparison of the involved hardware kits, this comparison would present in a very detailed way the components and their capabilities; the second part of the task would be to determine how much more efficient are each and every compared parts at running specific code; and finally one would have to present the results, in a statistical form, for each components and for each code sample ran during the tests.

Only then you could start talking about hardware being "more or less powerful."
You could start doing that, yes, but you would have to consider another indubitably important factor: by how much do a piece of hardware's performances out pace theses of the other parts in presence?

And in some cases -and when I say some I mean most- you will find that parts are not doing the same things as others, and when they do, they're not faster in every categories.

So, what could you do about that?
The logical, technological and only solution viable for this forum is to take all this elements into consideration when talking about a code running on these parts.
The simplistic, flawed and not welcome at all in these forums second option would be to even the numbers, obtained for each components inside a products, out to a single, unspoken, value for each product and then use this single, meaningless, value as a technical caution to support the hollow and uneducated points they make, in the name of this corporate allegiance nonsense we refer wryly to as "system wars."

Simplification is the mother of all evil in technological fields, especially in discussions. Because it sends off the wrong signal to some people, it tells them that the issue at hand is "simple" or at least can be characterized simply.

Of course the simplification is often produced to help the less technical versed folks understand, which is a commendable thought at its root. No, the problem appears later on, when some of the less technical versed folks do not comprehend that a simplification is not meant to be used as a basis for extrapolation or any other form of reasoning for that matter.

So, here we are, we're left with extremely complex pieces of engineering and some people who do not comprehend, and more importantly do not try to learn at all, the inner working of it all, want not only to know which product "packs the more punch" but they also feel confident enough to enter technical arguments -to prove that their favorite system is superior, of course- with no knowledge of the situation or the field at all, other than some simplifications they picked up left and right on this terrible place we call the Internets.

But what baffles every educated readers, each and every time, is that even when confronted with over simplistic, flawed, meaningless information some folks find a way to not understand basic corollary concepts.

How is it hard to understand that different can be more computational capable, yet not necessarily superior in every way to something more classical in its form?

I'm sure that a lot of the people whom should take note of the advice written between the lines of this post have already phased out, dubbing the post as a rhetorical exercise, a sermon or too theoretical for their taste.
To address that, I'll take a simple example (yes simple, no lies) to illustrate the aforementioned concept: geometrical forms.

Please bear with me and do not run out of the thread screaming "he has maths with him and capable of using it against us, run for your lives!," there won't be no maths, well nothing that would require more than grasping the concept of numbers.

You create a code base on a platform B, this platform average, and utterly meaningless value of all its numerous and complex components performances is 100 (a round number!), this number is also the area size of that machine.
You'll note that, even though the Machine A has a higher meaningless valueâ„¢, it's smaller in absolute height and has a smaller base.

Untitled-1_04.png

They're not to scale, before anyone asks.

Still following me? Heck no, you say? Fine, let us continue then.

Now, time to port the code base created for the crowd favorite geometrical machine B and its 100 rating, to the other, differently shaped, product, the rated 120 Machine A.



And what does happen? Simple, you have to cut corners to make the code base, made for a 100 MVâ„¢ part, fit into the 120 MVâ„¢ part you have to cut corners...
And only a pathetic, low life and uneducated fan person would not think of that basic principle and concept, which, ironically, finds ground in the flawed and simplistic approach to technological topics which they chose to adopt to discuss things out.



I had to step down from moderating the forums for a while, since I was busy with the backstage preparations for the site, and Stefan was busy on his end as well. In clearer words, we let a lot of stuff slide in the forums. The quality of the average technical discussion was once too many hurt by the noise created by fan persons who weren't there to learn something about technology but just there to hear what they wanted to hear and express their uneducated drivel in a passive aggressive way.

But here's the deal, no one is here to read clueless about technology fan persons getting at it based on incomplete piece of information -information beyond their grasp- that they heard on internet. If folks wanted to do that, there are a billion gaming forums out there with odd technological threads where people spew nonsense after nonsense to outdo their rivals' own drivel.
This is a technological forum, thus meaningless and petty sandbox king of the hill fight are irrelevant to the (smart ones) people who read this forum

This conclusion to my post serves no other meaning than being an announcement of the upcoming crackdown (great game, BTW) on the console forums.
 
postmortem

Too bad Ubi did a poor port, maybe PS3 owners will not buy it while games like Oblivion will sell well. You have to vote with your $$.

Anyhow the game, even on the 360 was crap IMO. You can find it near $20 on the 360. The game play online and off was a downgrade from the Xbox Chaos Theory, which is BC.

I'm sure this port will make good fanboy fodder though.

Splinter Cell conversion for PS2 was not so great and had very bad PS2 "utilization" according to Ubisoft "post mortem" document on Gamasutra. I wonder maybe they have similar difficulty because of complicated PS3 design.
 
First and foremost, one has to define the moniker "more powerful hardware." A task, which would require an intricate and down to the smallest minutiae comparison of the involved hardware kits, this comparison would present in a very detailed way the components and their capabilities;

Not really, systems can be judged on real world results, just like last generation. It was clear which platform was more powerful, and did not require breaking anything down to the smallest minutiae.

In the end, hardware is only part of the equation.

I'm not saying we're anywhere close to being able to make that call, in fact I think it's pretty obvious they are damn close, so close that any difference is going to take years to be established, and even then, be slight.
 
Not really, systems can be judged on real world results, just like last generation. It was clear which platform was more powerful, and did not require breaking anything down to the smallest minutiae.
So what platform had the best performance with EMBM?
Which one had the best performances with particles and heavy alpha blending effects in 32bit mode?
And which one was more efficient with dot3 calculations?

More powerful means nothing, unless you're talking about a machine several orders of magnitudes more capable, computational-wise, than another one.

The Wii is more powerfull than N64, Snes, Nes (and the GC, technically, since, it's basically the same architecture, faster and with more RAM), but you can't say it's "more powerful" than the Xbox. because in such context, such generalisation would dismiss Xbox architectural differences and its own advantages.

I repeat, simplification is the mother of all evil in technological discussions.
 
So what platform had the best performance with EMBM?
Which one had the best performances with particles and heavy alpha blending effects in 32bit mode?
And which one was more efficient with dot3 calculations?

I don't know, but I know which one had the better visuals in the vast majority of cross platform games.

More powerful means nothing, unless you're talking about a machine several orders of magnitudes more capable, computational-wise, than another one.

I understand what you're saying, that power is measured in a million different ways. But at the same time, you're ignoring the reality of last generation where there was a clear power(use whatever word you like) advantage for the Xbox, that was shown repeatedly and consistently in a wide variety of games.

I guess I should clarify my point of the original statement, which was simply to emphasise that just because a game is a 'port' doesn't mean it has to be shitty, and that we have plenty of past evidence with a console with a smaller userbase, and lower development budgets, getting superior ports. It can and will happen if the HW is there.

I never actually meant the PS3 should literally get better looking ports, as I don't think the differences between the machines are large enough, you can't say one has a clear overall advantage over the other. My point was Todd putting all the blame on the developers is unrealistic.
 
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More powerful means nothing, unless you're talking about a machine several orders of magnitudes more capable, computational-wise, than another one.

I use the only viable metric, the games. It doesn't really matter which one can pull more Flops or which one has the better GPU, what matters is how useful they are in making a great game. We probably can't make any declarations until the middle of the generation, but at one point we should be able to say a) PS3>360 b) PS3:love:60 or c) PS3==360.
 
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