That was my whole point. Non-ionizing radiation like wifi or GSM signal can't change atom structure and thus cells/DNA meaning it can't cause cancer that way
*spin-off* WiFi Effects on People
- Thread starter RudeCurve
- Start date
That's not the only way of causing cancer. Many things can cause cells to become unstable/mutate and interfere with their biological processes. Many cancers are not not even caused by radiation. You're assuming only ionizing radiation can cause cancer, that's like assuming only cigarette smoke can cause lung cancer. Anyway it's been shown that EMF/EMR reduces melatonin levels in the body which reduces the immune system's ability to suppress tumors.
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Any chance you can put some numbers about energy levels behind that claim?
It doesn't really matter, without knowing what part of it is due to the electric field and what part is due to radiation it's impossible to draw conclusions about the radiation part.
It might be a reason for caution, but not when there are much better pure radiation studies to consider ... using the mixed electric field/radiation study to set a lower limit is disingenuous at best, downright retarded at worst.
It might be a reason for caution, but not when there are much better pure radiation studies to consider ... using the mixed electric field/radiation study to set a lower limit is disingenuous at best, downright retarded at worst.
This is insane. There is no possible physical effect that is more prominent than standing in a bit of sunlight (the sunlight is quite a bit worse, actually, due to the risk of sunburn....there are no such risks with WiFi).
No, not possibly. WHO just caved to bullshit that's been going around, and put it in the class of things labeled, "Well, maybe it's carcinogenic. There is no evidence that it is, but maybe." Coffee, by the way, is also in this category.
There's no plausible physical process, and a large number of studies have come up empty. So no, there's no link.
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True, but wifi transmissions are unable to transmute atoms into Strontium, or aid in the spontaneous formation of benzene rings inside cells or such.
All those other cancer-forming mechanisms are irrelevant for this discussion, as they don't apply to this particular situation. Fact is, wifi transmissions are too low-energy to interfere with genetic material and cellular proteins in a way that could cause malformations or mutations that give rise to cancer.
Doubtful if this would have any effect whatsoever at the incredibly low power levels wifi operates at, especially as most people don't walk around with the transciever antenna inserted into a bodily orifice, and field strength drops at the inverse square of the distance to said antenna (ie, incredibly rapidly)... How exactly would this happen? By what physical process would it work?
I think it's more a case of flawed studies combined with superstition that came up with these results.
What? Who said anything about WiFi being worse or the same as UV from the sun?
Besides there are many types of skin cancers that are caused by UVA, UVB or UVC. UVA for example have been shown to indirectly cause skin cancer while UVB and UVC are know to directly cause skin cancer.
The risks of WiFi needs more study. They may not be able to cause cancer directly but they may cause cancer indirectly. There's just not enough studies done to date to prove whether it's safe or unsafe. They may also cause OTHER health problems that don't relate to cancer.
As I posted ealier EMF/EMR has been shown to reduce melatonin levels. This results in weaking the immune system's ability to suppress tumors. Even though this doesn't mean it directly causes cancer it can promote it. In a person with a healthy immune system WBCs are able to destroy cancer cells and keep it from growing into a tumor. Now if this same person were constantly exposed to EMF/EMR they may develop a tumor over time.
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Yeah your waffling in a previous post did not go unnoticed, but as also mentioned, how would wifi, in the milli/micro/nanowatt range (depending on distance, transmitter power output and so on) be able to cause this?
You're subjected to far stronger EMF by almost any regular household appliance, vacuum cleaners, dishwashers, tumbledryers... Shit, your CAR is going to blast your melatonin absolutely to hell if you worry about wifi!
You're being ridiculous and superstitious. The physics of reality don't support your hocus pocus claptrap ideas.
There just haven't been enough studies done to know every possible effect on the biological processes of cells when exposed to EMF/EMR. So far we've only found that DNA changes cause cells to malfunction and become cancerous cells. That does not mean it is the only way to cause cells to malfunction.
The problem is people are all too focused on one single mechanism without exploring other possible cancer-forming ones. I know many people who smoke a pack of cigarettes a day their entire life and they've never developed lung cancer. Why is this? It's been proven that cigarettes causes lung cancer right? The simple answer is genetics. Some people are predeposed to developing certain types of cancer. Now if it turns out that WiFi exposure helps to promote cancer whether directly or indirectly then some people may develop cancer when exposed to WiFi while the same group may not if not exposed...make sense?
The body functions via chemical reactions which is just positive/negative charge interactions. Any disruptions to this electro-chemical balance will have some kind of effect on biological processes...some beneficial some not so much.
http://www.feb.se/EMFguru/Research/emf-emr/EMR-Reduces-Melatonin.htm
I gotta admit that you're one of the most annoying people to have a debate with..
Can you ever hold a conversation where you don't eventually resort to posting stupid shit like this-->The physics of reality don't support your hocus pocus claptrap ideas. ? Do yourself a favor and remove the term "physics" from your vocabulary...given you're that guy who flunked highschool physics because he thought Gravity (F=ma) was the same and Work(F*d)...sigh.
Now that I've gotten that out of the way EMF/EMR spans a wide range of frequencies. It's not a coincedence that the concern over WiFi is due to the frequency and pulses of the signal rather than the lack of power to "dislodge DNA strands".......now if you still want to talk about stupid shit like vacuum cleaners, alternaters and ceiling fans then please do enjoy yourself.
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Read it again...there were multiple studies from ELF to RF to MW.
Besides I don't know about you but I don't vacuum and drive while I'm asleep...
More fun reading...btw I'm not here to try to "convince" anyone...it's your health...I've already taken precautions for myself.
http://smartmeterwarnings.wordpress...alt-of-wireless-rollout-the-botswana-gazette/
http://smartmeterwarnings.wordpress.com/2010/12/17/rf-radiation-breaks-apart-dna/
http://smartmeterwarnings.wordpress.com/2010/12/08/public-statements-about-rf-health-dangers/
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Yes, because ultraviolet light can cause chemical reactions. But optical light does not. And WiFi signals are so vastly lower in energy than visible light that it's not even funny.
Why? What's to study? WiFi signals can't do anything but heat up your cells. And you can feel that happening, so it clearly isn't a concern.
This is fucking idiotic.
Err, trying to interpret your grammatically broken sentence, I direct your attention to the fact that in that thread I argued gravity was NOT work... Anyway, how's that free energy motor/rotor/whatever guy been doing lately? I notice he's not made mainstream news yet, why is that? Can't be his ideas were utter bullshit can it?
And FYI, I never flunked physics... I did flunk German though in highschool, but that's a ridiculous language so I don't consider it MY fault...
If the signal lacks power to dislodge (or actually interact in any way), it doesnt' matter what frequency it has or how it pulses. It's irrelevant. It's sort of discussing what plutonium salts taste like in a toxicity study - the stuff'll kill you in short order regardless of its taste.
You're the one who expressed concern over EMF, and these appliances output that, sometimes in considerable amounts.now if you still want to talk about stupid shit like vacuum cleaners, alternaters and ceiling fans then please do enjoy yourself.
Mintmaster
Veteran
You're just not getting it. This has nothing to do with unknown biological processes. Every living entity relies on chemical reactions to function.
There is no evidence of EMF at WiFi frequencies being able to affect a chemical reaction except its heating effect. None. Forget about the specific chemical reactions in a living body, as I'm talking about ALL chemical reactions. Go deeper into the physics and you find statistical mechanics, and it will tell you that things at body temperature will get a statistical variation of 26meV. WiFi is less than 0.01meV. Worrying about that is like worrying about someone touching touching the lottery machine and messing up your odds.
Please spare yourself from all these nutjob health sites that claim scientific coverups. You have to understand that scientists are looking for ways to interact with biology. THz radiation, for example, has been shown to affect cell membrane permeability and thus can affect reaction kinetics, possibly able to stimulate neurons. Wifi frequencies, fortunately for us and unfortunately for your whack theories, is 1000x less energetic.
I think it's possible that your brain activity can be slightly affected by EMF, because many potentials are in the microvolt range there, but it's quite a gargantuan leap to say that this will affect brain development or lead to diseases as you need chemical reactions for that.
I work for an ISP in Finland and I sometimes get questions about Wifi health issues.
I forwarded some questions to a Finnish sceptic organization (Skepsis) and it seems that they would accept Wi-fi sensing to their paranormal challenge and by proxy to the James Randi Million Dollar Challenge. So if you can sense Wi-Fi radiation without previously knowing that such radiation is there in a double blind test arrangement, you will get your million dollars from James Randi and change from your local sceptic organization.
So please, if you think you can sense Wi-Fi, please apply to the challenge provided by your local sceptic organization. You may get rich... or at least you´ll get a very nice lenghty conversation with them about the subject matter should you choose to have one.
I know, you may argue that you can´t really feel radioactive radiation either but would get health effects from that. That would be a reasonable argument. Well all I´m saying is most of the people that I´ve encountered that are worried about Wi-Fi also claim to sense it in some fashion and would rather turn off the Wi-Fi to somehow feel better. I´m thinking that it´s some kind of reverse placebo effect. I´m not saying you belong to that group though as you´ve not made such claim. Just typing this post cause I feel it may be informative.
In case you´re unfamiliar with JREF and their Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge: read here
I forwarded some questions to a Finnish sceptic organization (Skepsis) and it seems that they would accept Wi-fi sensing to their paranormal challenge and by proxy to the James Randi Million Dollar Challenge. So if you can sense Wi-Fi radiation without previously knowing that such radiation is there in a double blind test arrangement, you will get your million dollars from James Randi and change from your local sceptic organization.
So please, if you think you can sense Wi-Fi, please apply to the challenge provided by your local sceptic organization. You may get rich... or at least you´ll get a very nice lenghty conversation with them about the subject matter should you choose to have one.
I know, you may argue that you can´t really feel radioactive radiation either but would get health effects from that. That would be a reasonable argument. Well all I´m saying is most of the people that I´ve encountered that are worried about Wi-Fi also claim to sense it in some fashion and would rather turn off the Wi-Fi to somehow feel better. I´m thinking that it´s some kind of reverse placebo effect. I´m not saying you belong to that group though as you´ve not made such claim. Just typing this post cause I feel it may be informative.
In case you´re unfamiliar with JREF and their Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge: read here
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Presumably for this to count it would have to be without a radio receiver.
Well, I sure can "sense" 2.4GHz microwave data transmissions, I just have to talk into my Siemens DECT phone for a while for my ear/cheek to start feeling hot and itchy... Other than that though I don't believe there's a reliable way to do it.
I've never heard of any proper double-blind study done with EM "sensitive" people that gave positive results, although that doesn't mean no such study exists of course. I could easily have missed it, theoretically, even though I frequently read science/sceptic and tech websites. It's not a terribly high chance though I'd say, because it should have received coverage on some of those sites.
I've never heard of any proper double-blind study done with EM "sensitive" people that gave positive results, although that doesn't mean no such study exists of course. I could easily have missed it, theoretically, even though I frequently read science/sceptic and tech websites. It's not a terribly high chance though I'd say, because it should have received coverage on some of those sites.
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