*spin-off* Importance of Backward Compatibility Discussion

Strange, that must be why all these last generation re-ports and hi-def versions are selling like hot-cakes... ;)

Well, this merges with something else I've been thinking about, particularly in regard to Borderlands 3 that is only being released on last gen systems.

How many people with a PS4 or Xb0x are going to buy BL3 for their PS360? If companies don't release cross-gen titles at this time are they essentially losing out on X millions of people that have moved on to the next gen?

Surely, if the PS4 and Xb0x were backward compatible, more of those customers would purchase last gen games that could still be played on their new systems, right?

As much as I love BL, I doubt that I'd be purchasing BL3 if I had moved on to a next gen system. I'd either wait, hoping an upgraded version eventually made it to the new systems or I'd just miss out entirely.
 
They made a poll to ask console owners what they wanted, and bc is listed at #2. Doesn't that finally clue people in as to it's importance? Makes you wonder how many less people they would have lost to the competition had it been a day 1 feature.

The PS3 had full BC and it sold like crap, then they removed it, reduced the price and saved the console without BC. There is nothing that tells us BC is important for a console to survive, the customers obviously doesn´t care. They usually have the former console anyway so why should they care. And when they stop playing those old gen games they don´t even think about them anymore and the old console goes to the shelves. For me it used to be an important feature, but now i am not so sure anymore, but i am pretty sure the world cares less than it used to. Maybe it´s because the last games on old gen are also on new gen, the shift seems more gradual now.

And there never was full BC to begin with, it was always a gen back and nothing more.
 
PS2 BC. In the US, PS3 launched with full BC and sold poorly with an exorbitant price. PS2 BC was removed and sales picked up with the reduced (though still eye-watering!) price that allowed.

In the EU, only one SKU shipped with partial BC, and it was soon dropped. Sales of PS3 didn't fall off a cliff when that happened in any territory.
 
I agree that the majority of early adopters still have their previous systems and can use them if they really wanted to play last gen games.

As the generation matures, backwards compatibility becomes less and less important as the catalog of games for the new systems grows.

Taking those things into consideration, who is the market for backwards compatibility? It just isn't very large.
 
PS2 BC. In the US, PS3 launched with full BC and sold poorly with an exorbitant price. PS2 BC was removed and sales picked up with the reduced (though still eye-watering!) price that allowed.

In the EU, only one SKU shipped with partial BC, and it was soon dropped. Sales of PS3 didn't fall off a cliff when that happened in any territory.

I thought so, I was wrong. My slim PS3 is running rage racer, the ps1 version as I type this.. Amazing, I thought all that was gone when they tore out the ps2....

So we have a console that runs last last gen games..
 
Backwards compatibility is only a feature I want if it makes last gen games prettier on my new machine. But I wouldn't really purchase any last gen games for a new system. No sense in that when the new titles are what I want to play. Re-releasing hits from the last gen on current like GTA is a decent idea, plus they can make money from the game all over again.

I just don't see BC as a system seller. The console world has been fine without it for now. Though I do think MS, and possibly Sony, has left the new generation open for forwards compatibility. It should be much easier to get BC in the future considering x86 is a dominant force in the market. I can see MS releasing updated hwardware and the games being cross compatible and played at different settings. I've discussed this in the past with others on this forum. If there are shorter cycles between hardware releases then it would no longer be backwards compatibility but cross compatibility that would be essential.
 
Is it something console gamers want? Yes. I would like BC in my consoles. Out of that list of features I would probably vote for BC (although I wouldn't because I understand it can't realistically happen). Is it a good idea to hamper your console with BC hardware at added cost for a feature that decreases in relevance over its life? Will lack of BC hamper console sales? PS3 sold tens of millions of units in Europe without any BC. It sold faster in the US when BC was dropped. XB1 and PS4 are selling millions, PS4 being the fastest selling console ever at launch, without BC. Doesn't that finally clue you in to BC being a nice, wanted, but ultimately unessential feature that a console can live without, even if it's preferred to be included all other things being equal?

If the #2 requested feature isn't needed to sell consoles they why bother adding any other features ever? After all since they won't affect sales, then why waste any time on adding feature requests #3, #4, #5, etc... Besides as you others like to always point out, the first few months sales don't mean anything for the long term prospects. So just because they sold millions for the first few months doesn't mean that not having bc isn't damaging their long term prospects.
 
I would have liked backwards compatibility a lot. But I think a lot of us see that the sacrifices that would have required just aren't worth it. I hope services like Playstation Now and that consoles are now in no small part PCs will help in the future.
 
We have the PS3 as a textbook example for how much value people actually place on backwards compatibility. The price was too high, BC was removed and the price was cut, and sales went up. BC is an awesome feature if it doesn't cost you anything to have it, but given a hard choice consumers overwhelmingly prefer a lower price and/or better hardware.
 
Why would cable choice make a difference ?
Digital vs analog, modern TVs mostly give a crap picture on analog sources, at best allow you to add digital filters and a delay on top.

Having a single set of controllers would be a help too.
 
BC is a nice to have in my opinion, especially since it would mean I could play som PS3 only titles on my PS4 until all the interesting games would be out on PS4. But after that its of limited interest to me, since I very seldom go back to replay old games.

So in the initial phase where the newest gen do not get all the releases, then BC would be nice to avoid having 2 consoles. But I already bought my new console, so it had not value increase vs buying the latest and the greatest :) So max it would help Sony/MS is that I might buy a handful more games made for the older generation of consoles. Is that worth the investment on their side? Streaming solutions like Playstation Now, seems to be a better solution for the long haul.
 
So just because they sold millions for the first few months doesn't mean that not having bc isn't damaging their long term prospects.

Speaking of future I for once don't even think that the current "play on a dedicated machine" model it's even going to be there in the future but that could gaming will be the future and that BC will be part of the experience anyway.
Buying games una tantum on PS Now or a MS equivalent it's to me a much more interesting solution than charge customers $50-100 more each single gen due to a BC chip.
 
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If the #2 requested feature isn't needed to sell consoles they why bother adding any other features ever? After all since they won't affect sales, then why waste any time on adding feature requests #3, #4, #5, etc...
That's a ludicrous argument. Firstly, BC isn't the 2nd most requested feature - it was the second most requested feature for an update of an existing console. There are for more important features such as price, performance, games library, services, etc. Secondly, adding features to any project is always about cost/benefit. Sure, BC is wanted, but the cost to include it in consoles is very high. Balanced against benefit, the cost is too high so it's not included.

Besides as you others like to always point out, the first few months sales don't mean anything for the long term prospects. So just because they sold millions for the first few months doesn't mean that not having bc isn't damaging their long term prospects.
Huh? BC become less important as time goes on and the consoles have new libraries. One need only look at XB360 for that. Halo was refactored for BC to help the transition, but then MS gave up on adding more BC titles because no-one cared after that.

The evidence is completely one-sided.

1) Last gen, the console version with BC was far less desirable than the version without BC
2) This gen with no BC is the fastest growing generation of any
3) There has existed a platform offering full BC for over 10 years (PC), yet core gamers prefer to play on consoles without BC. If BC was that important, these gamers would choose PC over console. Instead they choose consoles which prioritises cost, convenience, peer pressure, or whatever far more important aspect than BC
4) Gamers who switch platform lose compatible, but they still switch (~50 million PS2 owners swapped to XB360 going by numbers)
5) Wii U is fully BC going back multiple generations but is selling like a dog, while Wii U owners are asking for new games
6) Sony invested in BC research but eventually gave up
7) Sony and MS, who clearly would have access to amazing stats and their own research, felt they were better off with clean-slate designs losing BC
8) Even among your beloved mobile example, people jump platform losing access to all their content without any problems. The core services, FB and Twitter etc, are available cross platform, and the content they do lose is stuff they don't care for. So customers who own an iPhone buy an Android, and vice versa, and don't give two hoots about the loss of massive amounts of their old, used library.

There is one mind-numbingly obvious, indisputable conclusion - that gamers like BC but prioritise it quite low in respect to purchasing decisions. Given the considerable costs in implementing it, it is avoided as a feature, but if the costs can be brought down (eg. HW synergy next-gen, if there is one), it can be considered as a value-add feature and may be included. BC is thus not unlike every other console feature considered in design. Set your design targets and priorities for features like cost, ease of development, performance target, aesthetic, BC, services, and then create a product that best balances them, making sacrifices in some areas to support others.
 
Mobile phones and games aren't the holy grail. As the os gets updated apps and games break, requiring updates themselves. And as apps and games do get updated old devices die when their os isn't updated.

The exact same thing we see on the PC.
 
We have the PS3 as a textbook example for how much value people actually place on backwards compatibility. The price was too high, BC was removed and the price was cut, and sales went up. BC is an awesome feature if it doesn't cost you anything to have it, but given a hard choice consumers overwhelmingly prefer a lower price and/or better hardware.

The ps3 is a textbook example of how to make an overpriced console, nothing more. It wasn't expensive because of bc, it was expensive because of a host of other reasons.


That's a ludicrous argument. Firstly, BC isn't the 2nd most requested feature - it was the second most requested feature for an update of an existing console. There are for more important features such as price, performance, games library, services, etc. Secondly, adding features to any project is always about cost/benefit. Sure, BC is wanted, but the cost to include it in consoles is very high. Balanced against benefit, the cost is too high so it's not included.

It's a software problem, one that should be factored into hardware design just like every other piece of digital hardware already successfully does. I realize bc for the older custom consoles is a pain in the ass due to their quirky hardware, but I'm advocating that bc needs to be a factor going forwards as exotic hardware isn't needed anymore thus going forward it's purely a software problem. Given that bc was mentioned as a highly desirable feature all the more cements that.


Huh? BC become less important as time goes on and the consoles have new libraries. One need only look at XB360 for that. Halo was refactored for BC to help the transition, but then MS gave up on adding more BC titles because no-one cared after that.

They abandoned bc because the xbox was never successful to begin with.


The evidence is completely one-sided.

1) Last gen, the console version with BC was far less desirable than the version without BC
2) This gen with no BC is the fastest growing generation of any
3) There has existed a platform offering full BC for over 10 years (PC), yet core gamers prefer to play on consoles without BC. If BC was that important, these gamers would choose PC over console. Instead they choose consoles which prioritises cost, convenience, peer pressure, or whatever far more important aspect than BC
4) Gamers who switch platform lose compatible, but they still switch (~50 million PS2 owners swapped to XB360 going by numbers)
5) Wii U is fully BC going back multiple generations but is selling like a dog, while Wii U owners are asking for new games
6) Sony invested in BC research but eventually gave up
7) Sony and MS, who clearly would have access to amazing stats and their own research, felt they were better off with clean-slate designs losing BC
8) Even among your beloved mobile example, people jump platform losing access to all their content without any problems. The core services, FB and Twitter etc, are available cross platform, and the content they do lose is stuff they don't care for. So customers who own an iPhone buy an Android, and vice versa, and don't give two hoots about the loss of massive amounts of their old, used library.

1) No, it was less desirable because it cost a fortune.

2) It's the fastest growing because it's been the longest wait period for a new console ever in the history of consoles. It was like throwing bread at a starving man, of course they devoured it.

3) That has zero to do with bc and more because people prefer to play games on the couch (most still don't realize a pc can be hooked to a tv) and because they are cheap. Heck if I use your logic then the Gameboy won out over the Lynx because people don't want color displays. I mean if color was really so important then why did people buy Gameboys? Conclusion: No one cares for color.

4) They switch because they have no choice, and they get forced to keep old hardware around. Imagine one console didn't require that, and instead it let you sell your old hardware to fund the new hardware and still play your old games. You don't think that would have any effect whatsoever on the competition if the competition didn't do that?

5) Wii U is a dumb example and you know it.

6) For Sony, bc with ps3 is simply too difficult so they had no choice.

7) No it's more like that they couldn't get bc working.

8) One of the most common reasons given by people for not switching is losing their software investment. The reason that marketplace numbers have shifted is due to new customers, not massive amounts of existing customers hopping platforms. Can anyone here tell me that they would happily change phone platforms and lose all their existing software? It's not an easy choice to make. That is also why emerging markets are so important, you need to get those customers locked into your ecosystem first then it's easier to keep them.


There is one mind-numbingly obvious, indisputable conclusion - that gamers like BC but prioritise it quite low in respect to purchasing decisions. Given the considerable costs in implementing it, it is avoided as a feature, but if the costs can be brought down (eg. HW synergy next-gen, if there is one), it can be considered as a value-add feature and may be included. BC is thus not unlike every other console feature considered in design. Set your design targets and priorities for features like cost, ease of development, performance target, aesthetic, BC, services, and then create a product that best balances them, making sacrifices in some areas to support others.

I agree that implementing bc with last gen is too complex. What I don't agree with is people saying that customers don't care for bc. I'm advocating is that it is still a crucially important feature and that going forward they really need to factor that into their hardware designs. That should be the case now given the current console hardware and I would be quite shocked of the xb2 didn't offer compatibility with the xb1.
 
The ps3 is a textbook example of how to make an overpriced console, nothing more. It wasn't expensive because of bc, it was expensive because of a host of other reasons.

Putting the whole (or partial) PS2 chipset in the PS3 obviously cost money.
 
1) No, it was less desirable because it cost a fortune.
I',m talking about PS3 vs PS3. Too identical machines except for one having BC at the higher price because it had BC. The consumer showed that they would rather have a cheaper console without BC than a more expensive one with. BC wasn't worth $100 to the average pundit. That's the best case we have of quantifying the value of BC as it's a like-for-like comparison.

I mean if color was really so important then why did people buy Gameboys? Conclusion: No one cares for color.
No. Why do you come up with such polarised conclusions? The real conclusion is that colour screens was a lower priority than good battery life, games, etc. Would people like colour? Yes. It is it more important than price/battery life/whatever? No.

I agree that implementing bc with last gen is too complex. What I don't agree with is people saying that customers don't care for bc.
No-one has said customers don't care for BC. It's a scale. To what degree is BC important? Anything from essential to irrelevant. Clearly BC isn't essential because people buy products without BC. Clearly it isn't irrelevant because people like it and have requested it.

I'm advocating is that it is still a crucially important feature and that going forward they really need to factor that into their hardware designs.
I absolutely agree, but that's made possible because of the choices with this gen's hardware. But advocating compatibility for the successors to XB360 and PS3 was much harder to do due to the quirks of their designs. PS4 with BC being locked to Cell would have been far, far worse for the platform than the current version without BC. Similarly, PS3 could only add PS2 BC by including the full PS2 HW. Had PS3 been designed around PS2, it'd have been a completely uncompetitive console. The costs of BC would either have been a poor machine or an expensive one. Nowadays it's easy to design a platform with forward compatibility in mind, but that was only due to a break in console traditions because custom hardware, and the complexity of BC that brings, has stopped yielding the degree of benefits it used to versus PC-based hardware.

Next-gen not being BC would be surprising. The added cost of BC can be justified with higher benefits relative to lower costs to implement. That said, it wouldn't be the end of a new console either. As long as the offering had value exceeding that provided by BC, a console can be a success.
 
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