*spin-off* Importance of Backward Compatibility Discussion

[-tkf-]

Here's a difference:

Find your copy of COD4: Modern Warfare, the biggest 360/PS3 game of 2007. Go online. Look at how many people are playing it now versus how many people were playing when it came out.

Now put your iPod on random. How long does it take for a song you bought 5 years ago to come up?

That's why BC doesn't matter for game consoles.

Ehmm they moved on to other games?

Find Monkey Island 1+2, why should i re-purchase them, again on PS4?

Boot up you Tablet, play the same games you do/did on your old HTC phone.

Now finally go play WOW, a game that came out in 2005(4) and is played by millions all over the wrodl, today, and tomorrow and when PS4 is out.

That is why BC matters. And just to be clear, i made a point of how it's the digital purchases that causes a problem for MS/SONY.

 

[bkilian]

Oh it's definitely not a simple problem to be sure! But I do believe it's doable. I look at all the emulator software out there written by regular joe's in their spare time and much of it is quite elaborate, so I'd have to think that Microsoft could pull it off if they wanted to. Plus there are two additional differences when comparing emulating Xbox 1 on Xbox 2, compared to emulating Xbox 2 on Xbox 3. The power gap is trememdous now because the current hardware is so damn old, so the Xbox 3 will have plenty of power to emulate Xbox 2. Also, Xbox 3 hardware should be closer in principal to Xbox 2 hardware, whereas Xbox 2 hardware was somewhat different from Xbox 1 hardware.

Both of those statements have behind them assumptions which are based purely on rumors. One is the assumption that MS would go for a hot, expensive, money losing console by pushing the technical limits, instead of a much cheaper solution gotten by adopting 1 or 2 year old technology (ala Wii and Wii U) and being profitable from day one. Second is the assumption that the new console will just be a scale-up of the existing console, which given the history (xb360 was not a scale-up of xbox 1), may be optimistic.

Let's talk about Sony for a moment. If the rumors that they're moving to x86 are true, they could have some difficulties in BC. For one, highly optimised SPU code will be _extremely_ difficult to emulate at speed on a current gen x86, no matter how much theoretically faster the new CPU is. Which parts of a PS3 game would be most likely to have the tightest, most optimised code? the SPUs, of course.

Clock speeds between the xb1 and 360 increased 4x. Clock speeds between 360/PS3 and any successor would be at best on par, and quite possibly lower. This does not lend itself to ease of emulation.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Ehmm they moved on to other games?

Exactly.

Did you know the PS3 is still BC with PS1 games? But nobody cares.

 

[joker454]

Let's talk about Sony for a moment. If the rumors that they're moving to x86 are true, they could have some difficulties in BC. For one, highly optimised SPU code will be _extremely_ difficult to emulate at speed on a current gen x86, no matter how much theoretically faster the new CPU is. Which parts of a PS3 game would be most likely to have the tightest, most optimised code? the SPUs, of course.

In Sony's case their saving grace may be that the spu's were mostly used as a second gpu. Not that I'm implying this is easy to do....but one option they have is shifting all spu tasks to a gpgpu under emulation. That just leaves a single Power pc core to emulate via x86 which would be relatively easy.

Clock speeds between the xb1 and 360 increased 4x. Clock speeds between 360/PS3 and any successor would be at best on par, and quite possibly lower. This does not lend itself to ease of emulation.

The cpu designs are very different though and not comparible. Simple example, the ~700mhz cpu in the Xbox 1 was actually in some cases more capable than the 3.2ghz cpu in Xbox 2. This was the first thing to bite us at console launch, where cpu code that ran at full speed on the ~700mhz Xbox 1 was actually running almost half as fast on the 3.2ghz Xbox 2 cpu. Now in our case no big deal, we re-wrote the code and threaded it. But for purposes of emulation you are now in quite a quandry because even if you fully emulate the code it will run half as fast, and what can you do now? That alone created a major hurdle when it came to emulating Xbox 1 cpu code on Xbox 2. Now fast forward to emulating Xbox 2 on Xbox 3. That's an entirely differnet ballgame and significantly simpler because the Xbox 2 cpu is actually relatively primitive. A new cpu design of similar clock speed can emulate Xbox 2 cpu code without issue. Look at Conroe compared to Pentium D for example, where a 2.2ghz Conroe outperformed 3ghz Pentium D's, the ghz alone don't tell the full tale.

That's why BC doesn't matter for game consoles.

The way I figure it they have two choices. Hire corders to create bc. Or, hire lots of phone operators to deal with the millions of calls from irate customers asking where the #$^@$%^@$ there XBLive/PSN games are when they log in on their new console and they are all gone.

 

[Npl]

Exactly.

Did you know the PS3 is still BC with PS1 games? But nobody cares.

You mean all those PSOne games people buy even today doesnt indicate enough people still play those games?

 

[Prophecy2k]

Did you know the PS3 is still BC with PS1 games? But nobody cares.

Yet FFVII charts nearly every single week in the PSN sales charts Sony releases.

Of course yeah, no-one cares ;-)

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The way I figure it they have two choices. Hire corders to create bc. Or, hire lots of phone operators to deal with the millions of calls from irate customers asking where the #$^@$%^@$ there XBLive/PSN games are when they log in on their new console and they are all gone.

Choice three. Do a good job of advertising to expalin to new customers that it's awhole new box with a whole new lot of games. That'd be far cheaper than options 1 and 2.

You mean all those PSOne games people buy even today doesnt indicate enough people still play those games?

BC's relevance isn't a boolean value. How many people buy PS1 games? Would they not buy PS3 if it wasn't PS1 BC? If the impact of PS1 BC is small, then BC is unimportant.

I wouldn't mind a game of Megalomania on tablet. I think it'd be a perfect fit. I'm told that I can through UAE, but as the effort involved requires me to rip ROMs from my Amiga and poke around with an uncertain emulator, I can't be bothered to try. But if it appeared on Google Play in native Android flavour, I'd buy. It wasn't a purchasing decision in my choice of hardware, but it would be something I'd like to revisit (I have played it on PC through UAE too).

Anyone presenting either polarised case 'people don't care' or 'people do care' isn't advancing the discussion much. Everyone cares to a greater or lesser degree and neither opinion can be dismissed entirely out of hand. We need a measure of 'how much'.

 

[-tkf-]

Exactly.

Did you know the PS3 is still BC with PS1 games? But nobody cares.

Way to miss the point, well ignore it 100% really. You use a game that relies on the online part and which have already seen several installments since then.

And ignore each and every example that shows the problem with digital purchases and lacking bc.

 

[fearsomepirate]

You mean all those PSOne games people buy even today doesnt indicate enough people still play those games?

What does BC have to do with buying a game off PSN? If someone is paying money to download a game off PSN, he's obviously not playing the game off a disc he bought ten years ago.

You use a game that relies on the online part and which have already seen several installments since then.

People quit playing games with no (or at least no interesting) online component even more quickly.

People don't consume games the way they consume music, i.e., continuing to consume most of the content they've bought over and over. They quit consuming whatever it was almost entirely the moment something else comes along and rarely if ever go back to it.

 

[AlNom]

What does BC have to do with buying a game off PSN? If someone is paying money to download a game off PSN, he's obviously not playing the game off a disc he bought ten years ago.

Presumably, they would want to have access to said content on the new platform if they had just bought said content recently on the previous platform.

 

[AlphaWolf]

But presumably if they are buying it again, they didn't know or care about BC. It's certainly better for Sony not having people use the old disc.

 

[AlNom]

I'm talking about online content... Going back to PSN and re-purchasing the content you *just* bought on PSN on the previous platform is asinine.

 

[upnorthsox]

What does BC have to do with buying a game off PSN? If someone is paying money to download a game off PSN, he's obviously not playing the game off a disc he bought ten years ago.

People quit playing games with no (or at least no interesting) online component even more quickly.

People don't consume games the way they consume music, i.e., continuing to consume most of the content they've bought over and over. They quit consuming whatever it was almost entirely the moment something else comes along and rarely if ever go back to it.

So like 80's music.

 

[joker454]

Choice three. Do a good job of advertising to expalin to new customers that it's awhole new box with a whole new lot of games. That'd be far cheaper than options 1 and 2.

When has that ever really worked though? For example I'd wager that today there are still people that don't realize a PS3 can be used as a bluray movie player inspite of all efforts to educate the masses.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I'm talking about online content... Going back to PSN and re-purchasing the content you *just* bought on PSN on the previous platform is asinine.

Why would you go re-purchase content you just got tired of? I recently bought Call of Duty Classic on PSN. If the PS4 launched tomorrow, and I could buy it on that system, too, I wouldn't care. I beat it a few days ago and will probably never play it again.

I would care if I bought a new iPod and it wouldn't play my Dio albums, because I listen to those all the time.

 

[-tkf-]

Why would you go re-purchase content you just got tired of? I recently bought Call of Duty Classic on PSN. If the PS4 launched tomorrow, and I could buy it on that system, too, I wouldn't care. I beat it a few days ago and will probably never play it again.

I would care if I bought a new iPod and it wouldn't play my Dio albums, because I listen to those all the time.

Why whould i watch a movie more than once? Why would i play a game more than once? Why why why..

You need your Dido music, i want the games i buy as a digital download to keep on working on the digital platform i put money into. I want the PS3 games i bought to work when i login in to my PS4.. sure, some games i will never re-download but others i very well might want to play or mess around with again. For example burnout, monkey island etc.. I got a kid, why shouldn't he be able to play some of my older games when he is ready?

For me this is more of a principle than a real world demand, i have 2 PS3 consoles, and every console from the 360 down to a PS1 (megadrive+snes+nes inc). And most of them are directly hooked up right now and able to play games. So i have more BC in the house than most others, but that does not stop me from pushing this issue, because i can see where we are going with this. At some point DD is the only option, and then there is a much more at stake than just principles, then it's every game i own, every dollar i invest and every minute i spend that is in the hand of profit maximizing companies.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Why whould i watch a movie more than once? Why would i play a game more than once? Why why why..

Some people will, but I think, certainyl based on what I've seen, that games are far more disposable than music and movies. In fact the majority of games are never even completed, let alone returned to again and again. I guess that makes sense due to duration. People only have so much time with which to do stuff. Music can be listened to during other tasks. Moves only take a couple of hours in an evening. You can watch a few new movies, and fit in some old movies. Games take hours to play, meaning there are always many hours of unplayed games waiting to be played.

 

[JPT]

But XNA and phyre based games + minis should have a shot of being recompiled or emulated on the next gen.
Their already running on different platforms, so whats one more right?

AAA titles will of course be harder(impossible/not worth the resources), but Sony has done a lot of updating to PS2 to HD ie PS3 and could use that experience to add some stuff that will help in future similar tasks.

Sony got PS1 emulation for "everything" now and PS2 is sort of there for the PS3?
MS did Xbox1 emulation/recompiling(?) for some games early in the life cycle?

 

[AlNom]

Why would you go re-purchase content you just got tired of? I recently bought Call of Duty Classic on PSN. If the PS4 launched tomorrow, and I could buy it on that system, too, I wouldn't care. I beat it a few days ago and will probably never play it again.

I would care if I bought a new iPod and it wouldn't play my Dio albums, because I listen to those all the time.

Why is your opinion the only one that matters? So we have to go by your definition of being bored of a new game? Try telling Steam users that they couldn't access their library on upgraded/new computers...

 

[joker454]

Why would you go re-purchase content you just got tired of? I recently bought Call of Duty Classic on PSN. If the PS4 launched tomorrow, and I could buy it on that system, too, I wouldn't care. I beat it a few days ago and will probably never play it again.

I would care if I bought a new iPod and it wouldn't play my Dio albums, because I listen to those all the time.

Here's a simple example. I just bought Pinball Arcade on XBlive. It's not a game i will permanently get tired of, it's remakes of old pinball tables that I would like to play from time to time today, tomorrow, a year from now, etc. When I buy my Xbox 720 and migrate my XBlive account to the new console (a one way affair from what i recall because ht XBLive account can't be active on two console generations), I will expect that game to work because I still want to play it. If it doesn't I will call Microsoft to complain and try to get some form of credit from them. I suspect I won't be the only one that does this.