Speculation: lack of a next gen media format may be a big problem

[Shifty Geezer]

Here is an article arguing that DVD-9 is not enough

http://greggman.com/edit/editheadlines/2005-08-17.htm

Those are the points in raised in the previous (or one of the previous) threads on this matter. Really, it'd make sense for people to go back to that first discussion before raking over the coals again. A lot of what people might say has probably already been said and argued.

 

[expletive]

His math is basically that the 360 has 10x more ram than the original xbox so therefore multiply the data amount required for this gen ....wait for it.... by 10.

 

[rounin]

Those are the points in raised in the previous (or one of the previous) threads on this matter. Really, it'd make sense for people to go back to that first discussion before raking over the coals again. A lot of what people might say has probably already been said and argued.

expletive gave a link with similar attributes (posted before, discussed before....quite a few times too) so I thought it would be good to give a refresher as well from the other side of the argument.

I agree though that this topic has been discussed a lot of times before though.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The original debate : http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27597

 

[AlNom]

If we look specifically at the difference between UT2003 and UT2004 AFAIR, basically all content of UT2003 was left intact and they more or less just added the "Onslaught" mode with brand new maps and some other minor things.

That really doesn't apply to consoles...

 

[pegisys]

youre forgetting that its 500mb for each megatexture, ie i magaine quakewars will come with more than one map, otherwise itll be very boring eg 20maps x 0.5gb = more than one dvd

I doubt the game will have more then 5 or 6 maps, these aren't small maps like common online multiplayer games, I would guess they are going to be the same size of the maps in battlefield 2 or larger

I could see the game coming with 10 maps and still fitting on a dual layer dvd no problem.

and who is to say that one megatexture can't have more then one map on it

 

[scooby_dooby]

Either you limit what you produce, to 2 hours of uber-hi-tech gaming instead of 20, or you limit the tech so it's not so expensive to produce 20 hours of game (like Wii apparently), or you provide a big medium and let devs choose how to use it..

I don't understand why you're making a correlation between game length and disc size, that's a myth that has never held up to scrutiny.

As far as I'm concerned Dev's are coming off a lazy generation with regards to disc space, they had more space than they knew what to do with last gen, as a result, things are very sloppy, tons of assets are left in that don't need to be there, and very little time was dedicated to planning/conserving/reducing for disc space requirements.

I think it's obvious that Dev's can use the available disc space mich more efficiently than they have been, after all, if you have a 8gb capacity and you're game is only estimated to be 3-4GB the last thing on your priority list is limiting overall disc space so it's natural that it would be a little in-efficient. As such, I don't think current disc sizes are a completely accurate measuring stick, nor are the first wave of 360 games. I want to see what Dev's can do with 8GB when they're forced to be aware of disc space and make efficient usage of every MB, something I think they're just starting to do for 360.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't understand why you're making a correlation between game length and disc size, that's a myth that has never held up to scrutiny.

Only as an example of how Platon's ideas of limiting developer creation being a good thing, he's point being reduced medium size caps developer effort required to fill it.

 

[Arwin]

Here is an article arguing that DVD-9 is not enough

http://greggman.com/edit/editheadlines/2005-08-17.htm

All of greggman's posts in the comments section add up to a nice argument.

 

[Crossbar]

If we look specifically at the difference between UT2003 and UT2004 AFAIR, basically all content of UT2003 was left intact and they more or less just added the "Onslaught" mode with brand new maps and some other minor things. ...

That really doesn't apply to consoles...

I never said it did, but I am willing to bet UT2007 will contain the favourite maps of the previous generation with just added detail (even the console version ).

The DVD probably has some mileage left, but no way console games will start to shrink in size when going to HD screens and 256+ MB video memory IMO.

 

[Blazkowicz]

according to some on the avs forum, blu-ray at the moment is expensive and wont be going down for awhile, yields are not that great and supposedly some have decided to use 20 of the 25gb capacity (still plenty of course) to be able to produce more (less data is written to outer edge which is causing the problems), and hardcoating process is not operating correctly in some pressing plants

that reminds of 540MB, 60' CDs coexisting at the time with the 74' 650MB CD. and we had 700MB and even 800MB later.

I wonder : in the end, will bluray single-layer discs be cheaper and more reliable than dual-layer HD-DVD? (similar capacity). what about dual layer DVD as well?
(I don't know how dual vs single layer is relevant with pressed discs. but at least for recordable media I think this would be a clear advantage for bluray)

 

[Blazkowicz]

His math is basically that the 360 has 10x more ram than the original xbox so therefore multiply the data amount required for this gen ....wait for it.... by 10.

maybe slightly bogus, but the RAM allows for way higher res textures than on previous gen, and textures represent by far the most of a game's data. it can be said that PC games already have hi-res textures and can fit on a DVD, though.
on the other hand Carmack's megatextures, and unique texturing (generalisation of his concept to every surface) can raise the bar for big amount of textures.

 

[joebloggs]

All of greggman's posts in the comments section add up to a nice argument.

I've just been reading his replies to comments on that page.

His arguments seem to be very strong and apparently from a point of authority of being a dev and working with other devs, artists and programmers.

Who is Greggman?
Do any devs here know who he is - what do you think of his arguments in the comments section?

 

[Dave Baumann]

To put this in further perspective, let me evaluate a couple PC games I have installed currently....

Doesn't really tell you anything about whats on a console game disk. Dependant on the game and intall type the data may be stored on the harddrive uncompressed in some cases and you probably have assets for multiple target quality levels, which wouldn't be the case for a console.

 

[scooby_dooby]

and textures represent by far the most of a game's data.

Bzzz! Wrong. audio and video by far, take up the majority of data on a console game disc today. The greggman arguments are riduclous, I'm expected to believe Jak and Daxter, which was a mere 900mb of actual game data, without A/V, is now going to balloon to 10GB? Ya right, I'll believe that when I see it.

The entire article is flawed becuase it assumes a direct relationship between the amount of RAM you use, and the size of the GAME DATA. ALready it's utter BS. So, theoretically, if you put 2GB of RAM in these consoles, by greggman's 'calculations' that's an increase of 48x over PS2 therefore, the next Jak and Daxter would be 40GB of just game data. What a stupid line of reasoning.

 

[Tap In]

I'm sure some devs will use more space for game content than 7gigs (especially if it's there) but to what degree and to what REAL effect? Yea, Sony will undoubtedly do it a few times and trumpet "bigger games" as a feature over the competition, but does it make the game better? more fun? prettier? than the X360 version?

That is doubtful; as attested to by the simplicity of a small game like Rockstar's Table tennis with it's simple, fun intuitive gameplay, having gamers everywhere, scrambling to play it.

To say that DVD is DOA and that MS has made a huge blunder here would be to say that Pubs will stop supporting X360 in the near future once we all "see the light" that more media is needed and only Sony can provide the games we want/need. Seriously?

4-5 years, maybe. by then we'll have X720 and PS4.

 

[weaksauce]

Meh, PS3 will just get bigger games with more content. EOD. :smile:

 

[Crossbar]

Bzzz! Wrong. audio and video by far, take up the majority of data on a console game disc today.

If that´s the case in the next generation games as well, I guess some video clips rendered to 1080p may take up some significant space then.

 

[scooby_dooby]

If that´s the case in the next generation games as well, I guess some video clips rendered to 1080p may take up some significant space then.

They sure would. But you can downsample hi-res CG and it looks fantastic anyways, so if that's the worst thing that happens (i.e. 360 doesn't get fully HD cut-scenes) it's an extremely minor problem.

 

[Titanio]

I'm sure some devs will use more space for game content than 7gigs (especially if it's there) but to what degree and to what REAL effect? Yea, Sony will undoubtedly do it a few times and trumpet "bigger games" as a feature over the competition, but does it make the game better? more fun? prettier? than the X360 version?

That is doubtful; as attested to by the simplicity of a small game like Rockstar's Table tennis with it's simple, fun intuitive gameplay, having gamers everywhere, scrambling to play it.

This sounds dangerously like an argument for "we don't need better technology"

All in all, again, it's too early to tell how things will shake out with regard to disc capacity. But saying it'll only matter by the time the next-next-gen systems arrives is a bit premature. We've yet to hear a dev say that DVD is all they need for this generation, but we've heard a number say more or less that it is or will be a problem. I mean if anyone was to come into this thread and say "DVD is really a problem", I know people would jump all over him and look for proof, but that's what some developers are saying!