Speculation: lack of a next gen media format may be a big problem

[Rolf N]

If Blu-Ray streams slower how is it better than DVD?

By offering more capacity

Just for the record, the "1x" data transfer rate on a BluRay drive is slightly north of a "3x" DVD drive. The expected (?) 2x BR drive should achieve roughly a "6.5x DVD" transfer rate.

The one variable we're still missing here is CLV vs CAV.
I don't know what style of "12x DVD" drive the XBox 360 uses, but in the world of PC components CAV drives are the norm these days.
OTOH proper BR movie playback at the maximum defined fidelity requires a constant 54Mbps stream, equal to what a 1.5x CLV drive could (barely) manage. If the PS3 drive is 2x CAV, it wouldn't be able to cope with this requirement, so if it's "only" a 2x drive I'll assume that it is indeed CLV. So ... things look more complicated all of a sudden.

1)A 12x CAV DVD drive will only achieve roughly 5x speeds at the inside of the disc. The rated speed is achieved at the edge. Such a drive would not always have a faster transfer rate than a 2x CLV BluRay drive.
2)OTOH CLV tends to increase seek times because the spindle speed is changing all the time. This would further add to (or explain?) the "bad seek times" people expect from the PS3 drive.

But there's very little doubt that a BluRay disc has a higher maximum storage capacity when compared to a DVD

Edited to account for the info pointed out by gokickrocks

 

[gokickrocks]

according to http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=64 the samsung sd612 12x dvd drive (not the same as the toshiba-samsung dvd drive in the xbox360) gets about 5x at the beginning of the disc, ~8.5x on average, ~12x at the end of the disc...and sustained is ~8x (at least on plextor's 12x dvd)

or if you take a look at http://www.gamespot.com/pages/profile/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=23916169&user=skektek and look at the second chart, you see that the minimum read speed of a 12x dvd is a little under a 2x blu-ray's constant read speed

so on average, the 12x dvd will have a faster read speed than a 2x blu-ray...but then devs can always take advantage of the hd on the ps3 to level the playing field

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

the samsung sd612 12x dvd drive (not the same as the toshiba-samsung dvd drive in the xbox360) gets about 5x at the beginning of the disc, ~8.5x on average, ~12x at the end of the disc

Those figures can probably be taken as pretty close to a general value for all drives of that speed. The inner and outer radii of a disc is the same, the idea of CAV in general is that RPM is relatively constant, and 12x is relative to a given spec.

This would further add to (or explain?) the "bad seek times" people expect from the PS3 drive.

I would say simply "add to" as the seek times are also a result of the greater mass of the laser assembly. While average seek times may not be so bad (as a result of the fact that you don't have to cover that much distance (in radius) to seek across greater distance (in data), worst case seek times will be terrible from that alone.

 

[Nesh]

Blu Ray Disk and possible importance.

"The Darkness" developer:

"The 360 is a fantastic machine. I really really like it. The only thing, you know, that is going to cause trouble is the amount of storage space available on a DVD... thats really a problem."

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=446554


Quote:
Team Ninja:

"The infamous Team Ninja front man has a thing or two to say about Microsoft's decision to assign standard DVD format to the Xbox 360. Limiting his development team to a measly 9GB does not sit well with Itagaki, especially when Team Ninja is looking to include any number of (MS-coveted) HD cut scenes. It's ironic that Microsoft has been the most outspoken about the "HD era", but is the least prepared for HD. However, don't be surprised to see an Xbox 360.1 springing up in a year or two, complete with HD-DVD drive."

http://www.joystiq.com/2005/07/05/itagaki-sounds-off-on-xbox-360-
limitations/


Quote:
"Enchant Arms" developer:

"The developer of "Enchant Arms," an upcoming role-playing game in Japan, told Gamespot.com last year it was hoping to be able to fit the game on two discs, but admitted "that's even looking grim." Any old school gamer can tell you that switching discs while playing is not a fun experience."

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/05/commentary/game_over/column_gamin
g/index.htm


Quote:
Vivendi Universal:

"The technical requirement for game development today demands more advanced optical-disc technologies," said Michael Heilmann, chief technology officer for Vivendi Universal.
"Blu-ray offers the capacity, performance and high-speed internet connectivity to take us into the future of gaming."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm


Quote:
EA

"EA, a leading games developer and publisher, added that the delivery of high-definition games of the future was vital and Blu-ray had the capacity, functionality and interactivity needed for the kinds of projects it was planning."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm


Quote:
Ninja theory:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arfi-Gorgona-O
Well i want to ask something if i may.Do you guys use/plan to use the extra space the blu-ray provides,for the benefit of the game,or its just to early for that yet?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arfi-Gorgona-O
Guys,someone to answer my question too?At least tell me if you cant so i wont ask again,even a no comment is good enough for me


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja Mikey
[NT-DEV] Chief Technology Ninja

Sorry Arfi - let's see if we can't get you a decent answer....

"Yes!"

There you go

Seriously though the game is gonna need a whole lot of data for all the levels and characters that we are planning. At Sony's presentation on Monday last week they had a slide showing that the storage medium for a console is usually 100 times the size of the consoles main RAM - the point being that a DVD wouldn't be able to hold enough data for a AAA quality game. So yes, we'll definitely be needing the space that's available on the BD!

http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111&page=3



Quote:
Mar Rein:

Unreal Tournament was 6GB compressed. Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we're going to fit them on DVD9's I don't know, they'll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we're going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks. So, online isn't really the best option in some instances.Downloading 30Gb isn't really feasible. What online could be, is the back-channel to get additional content. Patches and things like that. I think what Valve has done is great. It'll be interesting to see where marketing fits in. Now they're going with EA in the future, the biggest publisher of all. You can't do one without the other, otherwise no-one knows about your game. Unless you have the huge marketing budgets that major retailers have when launching your game, so I think there's still a very important role for retailers. For even more ownage here is an article about blu ray movies that already require and use 50gb discs

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=125925


Quote:
Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto:

"Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto defended the decision to release FFXIII on the PS3. According to Hashimoto, the development staff determined that one DVD would not be enough for the type of visual expression they were attempting to make. Toriyama noted that, regarding visual expression, the PS3's shader abilities are a big factor."

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/710/710761p1.html


Quote:

Q: Will the graphics improve from F1 05?

A: We try hard every year to improve where neccessary, but as I said before, the PS2 is running on it's limits with the 22 cars. Graphically it is similar to F105, although we believe that the driving experience is much more rewarding with the new kerbing and the new phyiscs. The PS3, though, is something else! That machine is a Beast! We are adding an enormous amount of graphic detail to absolutely everything. To give you some idea about detail levels, one car in the PS3 game takes up the same amount of memory as all 22 cars in the PS2 version!! That's a 22 fold increase! You can damage the sidepods on the PS3 cars and see in side the car and it has radiators and exhaust pipes and everything. It's awesome. Gameplay-wise the PS3 also allows us to use much more accuarate collision models. In a PS2, the car has an invisible sensor that detects collisions all the way around the car, but in the PS3, there is no single box you can get the wheels interlocked with the other cars.

http://www.f1gamers.com/f1/apanel/view_articles.php?id=130&pa
ge=4


Quote:
Ubisoft

OPM: How's your experience with the storage media of the PS3, the HDD and the BluRay disc? And do you have any comparable experience with HD-DVD technology?

M.M.: Our focus is 100% BluRay, so I cannot compare with HD-DVD. I can only say that the new BluRay disc format is truly awesome. The capacity is immense, and the Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to. And that's really important, because Data Streaming (OPMED: where the console constantly loads new data from disc) is truly the only way to push next-gen games to the limit. The Playstation 3 HDD is something that we have so far given less attention to, because it hasn't been certain all that long yet that it will be standard on every console. Decreasing load-times by copying a part of the game to the HDD is one possibility, though it doesn't matter all that much for a streaming game like ours. But there are tons of other applications, such as the possibility to as it were record your whole game, to be able to watch a replay of it later on. We intend to use the HD optimally, but how, I can't tell yet currently.

http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.i
d=ps3&message.id=404546#M404546
Looks like blu-ray is going to make a real difference.

elitefaction.TK HTML and webdesign experts needed.

Direct copy paste from another forum

 

[Nesh]

Sorry guys I didnt know(or probably forgot) there was already a thread on it

 

[Moonblade]

Now that I think about it, cell and blu-ray could be considered tactical moves to keep 3rd party games exclusive on PS3 after the E3 stories I heared from ut2k7 and mercenaries 2 developers.

 

[Nesh]

Now that I think about it, cell and blu-ray could be considered tactical moves to keep 3rd party games exclusive on PS3 after the E3 stories I heared from ut2k7 and mercenaries 2 developers.

Sounds like a possibility. You made a good observation. Never thought of this.

Developers want as much ease and freedom as possible. PS3's enviroment does seem to offer a bit of extra performance, HDD storgare and lots of disc storage. Its hard to imagine a game that is developed for the PS3 that takes more than 10GB to be later ported to 360 in multible discs since it could be a bit of pain in the ass to try figure out how to split the data without sacrificing anything.


Also I have to add that recently I saw some claims that the BR's transfer rate is faster than that of a DVD.

 

[Platon]

Developers want as much ease and freedom as possible. PS3's enviroment does seem to offer a bit of extra performance, HDD storgare and lots of disc storage. Its hard to imagine a game that is developed for the PS3 that takes more than 10GB to be later ported to 360 in multible discs since it could be a bit of pain in the ass to try figure out how to split the data without sacrificing anything.

What the absolute most part of the devs and pulishers want is to sell games, and more the better, usually. That is why although the original xbox was more powerfull and much easier to develop for, still most of the support went ot the PS3. So IF xbox360, really gains lots of market share and dare I say might even win over PS3 in the US market, due to the high price of PS3, although the xbox360 has a crappy DVD, expect to see more exclusive 3rd party games for that than the PS3, although I will have to say that the 3rd party exclusives will most likely be really far apart from each other...

 

[Nesh]

What the absolute most part of the devs and pulishers want is to sell games, and more the better, usually. That is why although the original xbox was more powerfull and much easier to develop for, still most of the support went ot the PS3. So IF xbox360, really gains lots of market share and dare I say might even win over PS3 in the US market, due to the high price of PS3, although the xbox360 has a crappy DVD, expect to see more exclusive 3rd party games for that than the PS3, although I will have to say that the 3rd party exclusives will most likely be really far apart from each other...

I agree but currently its too soon for the developer to jump to a conclusion. Unlike now, when PS2 launched it had built a much stronger userbase until XBOX's launch which was a new player in the market.
PS3 though isnt what XBOX was and neither 360 is what PS2 was. PS3 has a huge fame due to the success of the previous consoles and 360 isnt as popular as it should have been although its doing considerably well.
What you are saying will be the case only if PS3 fails to deliver thus it wont build the expected userbase.
But all things equal DVD is most likely an issue and devs will prefer BR over the DVD. Assuming PS3 maintains the support PS2 had then the above point in my and moonblade's posts is valid.

 

[Fox5]

Hey, a little off-topic, but will 2x Blu-ray be sufficient to play blu-ray movies without skipping or stuttering? I remember the early 2x CD and DVD drives had tons of problems with that.

 

[Bad_Boy]

Hey, a little off-topic, but will 2x Blu-ray be sufficient to play blu-ray movies without skipping or stuttering? I remember the early 2x CD and DVD drives had tons of problems with that.

1x would, but not 2x. 2x is the minimum for movie playback.