Speculation: lack of a next gen media format may be a big problem

nonamer

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I've done some speculation on my own part about the DVD vs. Bluray disk as a format for gaming, and I've realized a potentially serious and huge potential problem with sticking with DVDs. It goes like this: Assume that DVDs are 8GB in size (for simplicity's sake) and that a game you want to make needs 20GB of data. Initially, you may think that since 8*3 = 24, this game will easily fit on 3 DVDs. However, there's a catch: a lot of the data needs to be on all the disks, such as character models and textures, dialog, NPCs, creatures, items, etc. So you are stuck with making a copy of this data on every disk. Let's assume that this data comes out to be 6GB in size. So if you want to fit this data on 3 disks, you have to have an additional 12GB of storage, or about 32GB total. That's 4 DVDs worth of data now, not 3.

But now you have another problem, because with 4 disks you need another 6GB, bringing your total to 38GB. That needs 5 DVDs to store it. But of course at 5 DVDs the same problem occurs, and now you need yet another DVD. In fact, this problem keeps on going until you will need a total of 7 DVDs, or 56GB of total data storage space before all the data can be made to fit on DVDs. So ultimately, in order to store your 20GB game, you've wasted 36GB, and your 3 disk game balloons into a 7 disk game. Heaven forbid that games never get into the 40-50GB range, at which point you may need something like 10-20 DVDs in order to fit all the data. Or even worse, the game cannot be made at all, if the required data is larger than a single DVD.

So according to my speculation, using only DVDs to store games may in fact be a huge problem down the road, especially if games have a lot of data that needs to be shared across disks. Any thoughts?
 
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My thought is they fit a hell of a lot of content in oblivion on 4.8 gigs. The only way I see a game needing 20gigs is for HD full motion video. I would rather they use the game engine anyways for cut scenes no loss to me. If a game needs 2 dvds it does not bother me at all heck the 4cd games during the ps1 days did not bother me either. I am not a developer but I would assume fitting 20gigs of real content not hd full motion video would take many many years and cost a lot of money that your probabaly will not get back.
 
I think you are overstating your case a little bit...

If you look at games now, most of them are quite compartmentalized, so that you can't go back and forth between all places on a whim.
Games with streaming worlds like e.g. GTA are the exception, and even then 7GB are quite a lot of data. Think of how fast the BR-drive is, think of how long it would take minimally to stream in all those 7GB until you would have to change the disc. That's quite a lot of world to explore, so I don't think people would complain too much if you had to switch discs when going from one part of the game (think Liberty City) to another part (think Vice City), as long as you don't have to do it too often.
 
At this point no developer can afford to create 30 gigs of uncompressed unique art for ingame use. 2008 that maybe a different story. Intelligent use of HD video sounds very promising.

I honestly wouldn't mind if xbox360 games came on 3 discs. (1x multiplayer, 2x single player)
 
I think many of your assumptions lean towards the worst case. It's also dependent on timelines which we are not fully privy to. I do think that assuming 6Gb of "always needed" data is far too excessive especially since the total size of many games nowadays doesn't reach that. It also depends on the type of game, for instance, Oblivion needs to have a lot of "always needed" data because on the non-linear nature but a FPS usually doesn't. Finally, with the (two) consoles having, generically speaking, only 512mb of total memory all your assets, including the "always needed" ones, will remain manageable.

Regardless, the problem you speculate about (and I agree it can become a problem), is mostly solved if consoles have hard drives. If it's true that only the high end PS3 SKU will be available in Europe and with consumers avoiding the core Xbox 360, both MS and Sony may loosen any "must work without a HD" rules for specific games with those amounts of content.
 
This thread is a good idea as this discussion keeps coming up in other threads.

I think that the data you need on all discs would be installed to the hard-drive, normally. Unfortunately, that doesn't apply to the core 360, which I think Microsoft should kill and give free HDDs for. After some thinking I do follow your logic on how more discs lead to even more discs, but I'm not sure it will actually work that way.

That said, Epic, Ninja Theory and at least two other developers believe they will need the space BluRay provides. Epic went as far as to state that he thinks their games will need about 20gb+ initially.
 
It's pretty amazing that every few weeks a new thread is created about the same tired DVD vs BR topic...

I'll make it short and blunt. When this mythical problem arises, we'll already be playing Xbox720, Wii2, and PS4.
 
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NANOTEC said:
Yeah imagine the RAM requirements.;)
no youre mistaken ram requirements are not the issue, disk requirements are.
though in saying that, i see megatexture (or its ilk) not really taking off just yet.
dvd is plenty big for a game the only cases where it wont be is
A/ lazy developers
B/ a game with lots of video (eg some rpg)
 
zed said:
no youre mistaken ram requirements are not the issue, disk requirements are.
though in saying that, i see megatexture (or its ilk) not really taking off just yet.
dvd is plenty big for a game the only cases where it wont be is
A/ lazy developers
B/ a game with lots of video (eg some rpg)


RPGs on either console will require a portion of files to be installed onto the HDD anyway.


So when is it that games are going to grow 6-9 times larger then some of the biggest out today? Surely the Xbox360 is doomed! We should all get consoles that dont use DVD drives and support "True HD" thats what we should do! Why cant people get off the damning Xbox360 threads and high horse PS3 ones or vice versa?

Cant wii all just get along?
 
What you mention is definitely a problem, although I don't know what proportion of the data would be needed on all discs. In your example, 75% of it is "common" data. But yeah, the scaling across multiple discs may not be very efficient at all.

I think another area that could be prone to difficulty may be where you make the design choice to allow a gamer to go anywhere at anytime, in a sandbox type of game. So say you have 12 locations, and everywhere in between..that's a lot of combinations of different potential paths (think Travelling Salesman Problem, for those who know it). If the total data requirement exceeds the capacity of your disc, the problem comes if you need to split that data across multiple discs - suddenly, depending on what paths the player takes through the world, they made need to be swapping the disc very often. The solution is to split your world into different areas that are somewhat mutually exclusive with little interdependency in the gameplay (i.e. you don't travel often between them) - but that's placing constraints on your design which was initially aiming for "go anywhere, anytime" gameplay.
 
_phil_ said:
Carmack wants a 6 Giga megatexture.Imagine this on 3-4 more layers.

from right here at beyond3d

MegaGen outputs two entirely unique 4GB textures - a diffuse map containing colour data, and a normal map - and then combines them into a single 5GB data file. This data file is then split into unique tiles suitable for streaming, and then compressed to reduce disk space usage.

The resulting unique MegaTexture is around 500MB in size. This represents a reasonable tradeoff between ETQW’s visual quality and disk space usage (maintaining a shippable size for the game).

sounds like thats not going to be a problem, and may actually save disc space over using conventional texturing methods

I think audio and video take up most of the disc space, and I don't see that going up by much since it is much better audio compression techniques around now. for video, a high quality 480p video of cgi upscaled will suffice, since cgi seems to upscale better then regular video
 
zed said:
no youre mistaken ram requirements are not the issue, disk requirements are.
While I've not read the book in its entirety yet, the XBOX 360 uncloaked book did mention developers appealing to MS over including 512MB of RAM but I've yet to note any developer consternation on the disk format during the design phase of the 360.
 
It's too soon for a next gen format imo.
Blu-ray disks will be too expensive to make them economically feasible compared to multiple DVDs, and they don't provide a big enough jump. 10GB to 20GB? Big deal, going from 32MB carts to 650MB cds was a big deal, going from 650MB cds to 5GB dvds was a big deal, blu-ray just doesn't offer enough space over DVDs, especially as compression methods get better and data can be decompressed to the harddrive anyway.
 
nonamer said:

Your worst case scenario, even at best, would only affect a few games and those games would use the HDD to circumvent the problem that you speculate about.

And this wont be a problem on the X2, more than say it lacking 1024 ram, or 6ghz CPUs or twice as fast a GPU. Devs know the specs and will develop for it.
 
dubyateeeff said:
Your worst case scenario, even at best, would only affect a few games and those games would use the HDD to circumvent the problem that you speculate about.

And this wont be a problem on the X2, more than say it lacking 1024 ram, or 6ghz CPUs or twice as fast a GPU. Devs know the specs and will develop for it.

But that's the problem: The Xbox 360 doesn' have a HDD for all systems. And not all multi-disk required data must be loaded into memory.
 
Fox5 said:
especially as compression methods get better
Compression methods aren't really getting better though. The difference between a hard-core compression algorithm and normal compression is only like 15% ish. It's not like games using .zip this gen and fitting on 3 GB can be compressed with UberCompressorX to 1 GB on next-gen hardware. More likely UberCompressorX will get the game down to 2.5 GBs if your lucky. The only way to go with compression is lossy, and hopefully better lossy techniques will work for images (JPEG2000) but that's about as far as it goes I think. There aren't many resources you can go lossy with. You don't really want lossy compression on your models or game code! :D

If next-gen games are to use 5x the resources of current gen, 5x the model sizes, textures sizes, audio sizes, it'll take about 5x the capacity unless the current systems are pretty inefficient. And this all ties back to conversations we had ages ago and I don't see why they're coming back again. Seems to me all the current topics have already been discussed. This forum has become like day-time TV - endless reruns and remakes...
 
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