Sound systems for the new consoles

PC-Engine said:
rabidrabbit said:
No no no, this all was about whether it was sensible at all to make "beyond 20KHz" one of your requirements, when it really has very very little effect on the sound (if any) considering one is indeed buying with limited budget.
Affordable speakers with "beyond 20KHz" really mean nothing more than a number in tech specs and something for the salesperson to spew out when trying to sell.

Well like I said, if it's already part of a speaker that already sounds good to begin with, then it's just icing on the cake. Of course it wasn't only about, "beyond 20khz" in selecting speakers, nobody ever said that. If speaker A and speaker B both cost the same and have good sound quality, but speaker B has extended high frequency response then why not go for speaker B?
Yes, in those speakers the "beyond 20KHz" has basically zero effect one way or the other.
It's just that you were so quick to dismiss the other speakers someone suggested because they were not "SACD/DVD-A ready", which by the way theose Yamahas aren't either, as SACD/DVD-A readiness is not just going beyond 20KHz no matter what the sales person tells you ;)
 
rabidrabbit said:
PC-Engine said:
rabidrabbit said:
No no no, this all was about whether it was sensible at all to make "beyond 20KHz" one of your requirements, when it really has very very little effect on the sound (if any) considering one is indeed buying with limited budget.
Affordable speakers with "beyond 20KHz" really mean nothing more than a number in tech specs and something for the salesperson to spew out when trying to sell.

Well like I said, if it's already part of a speaker that already sounds good to begin with, then it's just icing on the cake. Of course it wasn't only about, "beyond 20khz" in selecting speakers, nobody ever said that. If speaker A and speaker B both cost the same and have good sound quality, but speaker B has extended high frequency response then why not go for speaker B?
Yes, in those speakers the "beyond 20KHz" has basically zero effect one way or the other.
It's just that you were so quick to dismiss the other speakers someone suggested because they were not "SACD/DVD-A ready", which by the way theose Yamahas aren't either, as SACD/DVD-A readiness is not just going beyond 20KHz no matter what the sales person tells you ;)

Unless you have a pair you don't know whether or not they have zero effect. ;)

As for the Yamaha's they ARE SACD/DVD-A ready since they can go up to 35khz especially when used with a good subwoofer to cover the lowend. If you'd prefer to come up with your own definition of SACD/DVD-A ready then feel free nobody is stopping you. :LOL:
 
PC-Engine said:
As for the Yamaha's they ARE SACD/DVD-A ready since they can go up to 35khz especially when used with a good subwoofer. If you'd prefer to come up with your own definition of SACD/DVD-A ready then feel free nobody is stopping you. :LOL:

Well Humans can't hear anything over 20khz and most can't even hear that. And Yamaha's are hardly good hifi speakers.
 
Dr Evil said:
PC-Engine said:
As for the Yamaha's they ARE SACD/DVD-A ready since they can go up to 35khz especially when used with a good subwoofer. If you'd prefer to come up with your own definition of SACD/DVD-A ready then feel free nobody is stopping you. :LOL:

Well Humans can't hear anything over 20khz and most can't even hear that. And Yamaha's are hardly good hifi speakers.

That's the theory, but it's debatable since there's the belief that ultra highfrequency harmonics will have an overal effect on what a person hears. This has been shown through blind test studies. Also theoretical 20khz limit is not a brick wall that filters out everything above that, since it rolls off gradually. This in fact shows that if your speakers don't roll off until say 30khz, then the amplitude of the frequencies between 20khz and 30khz stays flat boosting that range relatave to the human hearing rolloff in that same range.

Now whether Yamaha's are good hifi speakers or not is all relative. For the price, they are actually very good speakers. If you disagree then fine, but I think a good number of recording studios use Yamaha monitors for a reason.
 
Dr Evil said:
PC-Engine said:
but I think a good number of recording studios use Yamaha monitors for a reason.

Which are probably "slightly" different than the models that are meant for home use.

Sure, but they have to be pretty well designed to work as studio reference monitors. If they're well designed then most likely Yamaha knows what they're doing in terms of speaker design. It's not like Yamaha doesn't know anything about acoustics considering they make all sorts of musical instruments, mixing equipment, etc. used by professionals. :LOL:

That aside show me a pair of good bookshelf speakers for $120 since you seem to have such a strong opinion on this matter.. ;)
 
PC-Engine said:
As for the Yamaha's they ARE SACD/DVD-A ready since they can go up to 35khz especially when used with a good subwoofer to cover the lowend. If you'd prefer to come up with your own definition of SACD/DVD-A ready then feel free nobody is stopping you. :LOL:
Manufacturer specs do not reliably tell the performance, you should know that.
Those Yamahas ARE SACD/DVD-A ready FOR MARKETING PURPOSES, nothing more.
They ARE NOT SACD/DVD-A ready for truly extracting the extra fidelity SACD/DVD-A are meant to provide, and that is much more than just frequencies 20KHz-35KHz.
Satellites+subwoofer do s not belong to true SACD/DVD-A ready system, no matter how you want to twist them into your own definition to SACD/DVD-A.

But as we've seen in many many occasions already, for many people marketing = truth :LOL:
 
Wouldn't want to derail the thread (which isn't about consoles anyway so i feel a bit better), but i've always wondered what the difference between SACD and DVDA is in terms of sound.

In theory DVDA has a lot more space to store audio, therefore it should be better, right? I really know very little about those 2 formats.
 
rabidrabbit said:
PC-Engine said:
As for the Yamaha's they ARE SACD/DVD-A ready since they can go up to 35khz especially when used with a good subwoofer to cover the lowend. If you'd prefer to come up with your own definition of SACD/DVD-A ready then feel free nobody is stopping you. :LOL:
Manufacturer specs do not reliably tell the performance, you should know that.
Those Yamahas ARE SACD/DVD-A ready FOR MARKETING PURPOSES, nothing more.
They ARE NOT SACD/DVD-A ready for truly extracting the extra fidelity SACD/DVD-A are meant to provide, and that is much more than just frequencies 20KHz-35KHz.
Satellites+subwoofer do s not belong to true SACD/DVD-A ready system, no matter how you want to twist them into your own definition to SACD/DVD-A.

Then you should have no problem coming up with some speakers examples that are NOT SACD/DVD-A ready in that price range with better sound. :LOL: ;)

But as we've seen in many many occasions already, for many people marketing = truth

You mean like Emotion Synthesis? :LOL: ;)
 
PC-Engine said:
Dr Evil said:
PC-Engine said:
but I think a good number of recording studios use Yamaha monitors for a reason.

Which are probably "slightly" different than the models that are meant for home use.

Sure, but they have to be pretty well designed to work as studio reference monitors. If they're well designed then most likely Yamaha knows what they're doing in terms of speaker design. It's not like Yamaha doesn't know anything about acoustics considering they make all sorts of musical instruments, mixing equipment, etc. used by professionals. :LOL:

That aside show me a pair of good bookshelf speakers for $120 since you seem to have such a strong opinion on this matter.. ;)
Again the professional stuff doesn't have anything to do with those Yamaha home speakers...
I can't show you a pair of good speakers that cost $120 since there aren't any, I don't say that those aren't good deal for the money, but If one likes to listen music, I'd suggest that one spends bit more money for it, however if you are building a surround setup for games, those are probably pretty good for it.
 
PC-Engine said:
rabidrabbit said:
PC-Engine said:
As for the Yamaha's they ARE SACD/DVD-A ready since they can go up to 35khz especially when used with a good subwoofer to cover the lowend. If you'd prefer to come up with your own definition of SACD/DVD-A ready then feel free nobody is stopping you. :LOL:
Manufacturer specs do not reliably tell the performance, you should know that.
Those Yamahas ARE SACD/DVD-A ready FOR MARKETING PURPOSES, nothing more.
They ARE NOT SACD/DVD-A ready for truly extracting the extra fidelity SACD/DVD-A are meant to provide, and that is much more than just frequencies 20KHz-35KHz.
Satellites+subwoofer do s not belong to true SACD/DVD-A ready system, no matter how you want to twist them into your own definition to SACD/DVD-A.

Then you should have no problem coming up with some speakers examples that are NOT SACD/DVD-A ready in that price range with better sound. :LOL: ;)
As I've tried to already say none of the speakers in that range are SACD/DVD-A ready other than for marketing purposes (it really is no big feat to put a tweeter that exceeds 20KHz, how good the treble is and whether that extra range really affects the harmonics in a positive way rather than just messing the lower frequencies is another matter),
so naming one pair would be difficult as there are so many options.

I'm not saying those Yamahas aren't good for the money, they probably are.
The problem was that you considered their marketed SACD/DVD-A readiness as a deciding factor over other suggested speakers, which is just ignorant and wrong.

But as we've seen in many many occasions already, for many people marketing = truth

You mean like Emotion Synthesis? :LOL: ;)
Exactly!
 
Dr Evil said:
PC-Engine said:
Dr Evil said:
PC-Engine said:
but I think a good number of recording studios use Yamaha monitors for a reason.

Which are probably "slightly" different than the models that are meant for home use.

Sure, but they have to be pretty well designed to work as studio reference monitors. If they're well designed then most likely Yamaha knows what they're doing in terms of speaker design. It's not like Yamaha doesn't know anything about acoustics considering they make all sorts of musical instruments, mixing equipment, etc. used by professionals. :LOL:

That aside show me a pair of good bookshelf speakers for $120 since you seem to have such a strong opinion on this matter.. ;)
Again the professional stuff doesn't have anything to do with those Yamaha home speakers...
I can't show you a pair of good speakers that cost $120 since there aren't any, I don't say that those aren't good deal for the money, but If one likes to listen music, I'd suggest that one spends bit more money for it, however if you are building a surround setup for games, those are probably pretty good for it.

Well then you're just pointing out the obvious. This is about getting the most for your money. Since jvd wanted to know what would be a good receiver speaker combination for around $800, I gave my recommendation. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

Anyway here's some interesting information I found.

Hearing and Sample Rates

Let’s look at some of the other factors concerning higher sample rates. The most obvious one is the debated question of whether sound above the commonly quoted human auditory perception limit of 20 kHz is significant or not. There are tests that show that some younger people can hear sine waves in air up to 24 kHz if reproduced loudly enough, so that alone suggests needing higher sampling rates, at least for some people. Other tests show that bone conductivity provides perception out to 90 KHz, however the sound is often heard as being between 8 and 16 KHz This suggests to some that it is a distortion process at work, and to others that human hearing has not been sufficiently studied to conclude that ultrasonic sounds are irrelevant. Some also point out that we are concerned with sound in air, not direct bone conductivity, as sound in air is how we listen to music. There have also been studies of the possibility of sensing ultrasonic frequencies with our skin. Certainly, ultrasonics in high levels can cause dizziness and nausea, and thus there are workplace limits on how high ultrasonic sound levels can legally be. There has also been plenty of anecdotal evidence, and some tests that are only semi-scientific, but compelling nonetheless. Rupert Neve does a test where he changes sine waves to square waves with high fundamentals, and people can hear the difference when they should not theoretically be able to, as the only difference is in harmonics that are above the commonly accepted audible range. He also tells a story of Geoff Emmerick correctly pointing out a couple of improperly terminated channels just by listening to the console output when the differences were only a few db down at around 50 kHz. In both cases above, there may be other distortions at work that explain the differences heard, but it remains interesting nonetheless. It has also been pointed out that trumpet with a harmon mute has a harmonic near 50 kHz which is near the amplitude of the fundamental, thus the argument of the upper harmonics being so low as not to matter is not an entirely accurate statement. So it seems that there is sometimes significant energy above 20 KHz, and ultrasonics may in some way be perceptible to humans, or possibly have some affect on what’s in the audible band. The jury may still be out, but it seems reasonable to make some effort to leave a margin of safety in our chosen sample rate. With these things in mind, many people adopt a “better safe than sorryâ€￾ attitude and shoot for the sky where sample rates are concerned. One problem with this approach is that the storage space and the available rate of transfer from a storage medium have practical limits, thus reducing the amount of audio channels or other related data (pictures, video, text etc.) that can be included, and requiring more DSP power (thus more money) to be spent dealing with these large data requirements. It makes little sense to waste available resources for no reason.

Even if you discount the contested evidence on human perception of ultrasonic frequencies, to ensure coverage of the entire population, you still need to cover a 24 kHz bandwidth according to the studies, plus leave room for gentler filter slopes, and a bit of space to ensure that the filters won’t have audible artifacts due to ripple. At the very least, you still need 60 - 64 kHz sample rates according to most studies and industry task groups. Interestingly, the committee on sample rate in the 70’s had suggested a 60 kHz sample rate, but for practical reasons having to do with the available technology at the time, the 44.1 and 48 kHz rates were settled upon. And the last advantage of a higher sample rate, which was mentioned in the second installment of this series, is that you gain flexibility with noise shaped dither in that you can put more dither energy higher in the spectrum, thus improving low level detail in the critical bands.

According to that, I think it's fair to say that a speaker that doesn't rolloff until 30khz has a better chance at covering all human hearing corner cases than a speaker that rolls off at 20khz.

As I've tried to already say none of the speakers in that range are SACD/DVD-A ready other than for marketing purposes (it really is no big feat to put a tweeter that exceeds 20KHz, how good the treble is and whether that extra range really affects the harmonics in a positive way rather than just messing the lower frequencies is another matter),
so naming one pair would be difficult as there are so many options.

I'm not saying those Yamahas aren't good for the money, they probably are.
The problem was that you considered their marketed SACD/DVD-A readiness as a deciding factor over other suggested speakers, which is just ignorant and wrong.

Ok understood, but it's the same thing as saying something HD-Ready. A HD-Ready tv can support HD resolution input, this is fact. Whether it gives a better picture than a non HD-Ready tv isn't the issue here. You see what I'm saying? I'm not saying a product that indicates it's XYZ-Ready means it's automatically better than something that is not. You keep trying to say this which isn't what I've been saying. Ultimately the only way to really know if it's good or not other than reviews is to audition the speakers yourself in your own home which is a forgone conclusion anyway.
 
PC-Engine said:
According to that, I think it's fair to say that a speaker that doesn't rolloff until 30khz has a better chance at covering all human hearing corner cases than a speaker that rolls off at 20khz.

Right. If you're looking for a speaker which will be able to output 96 KHz, you should notice me when you find one. That's something I'd really like to see outside some crazy scientist's lab :LOL:

Those high frequencies are not important as such. The important thing is that every signal is composed of indefinite number of high(er) frequency signals. These failing means that the audiable signal will be altered, so you'll hear something else than the "full" signal. Call it distortion.

Now all that 96 KHz jazz happens in the purely digital stage, prior to D/A conversion. What you hear is the output from the D/A and that is purely analog. And you'll NEVER, EVER have 96 KHz there. So saying that these speakers are not DVDA ready is pure nonsense from the technical standpoint.

But you'd also prolly wonder if I tell you that most CD players use 1-bit D/A converters (bitstream-converters), and noone ever complained...but not outputting 96KHz/24 bit is a huuuge problem :?
 
_xxx_ said:
PC-Engine said:
According to that, I think it's fair to say that a speaker that doesn't rolloff until 30khz has a better chance at covering all human hearing corner cases than a speaker that rolls off at 20khz.

Right. If you're looking for a speaker which will be able to output 96 KHz, you should notice me when you find one. That's something I'd really like to see outside some crazy scientist's lab :LOL:

Those high frequencies are not important as such. The important thing is that every signal is composed of indefinite number of high(er) frequency signals. These failing means that the audiable signal will be altered, so you'll hear something else than the "full" signal. Call it distortion.

Now all that 96 KHz jazz happens in the purely digital stage, prior to D/A conversion. What you hear is the output from the D/A and that is purely analog. And you'll NEVER, EVER have 96 KHz there. So saying that these speakers are not DVDA ready is pure nonsense from the technical standpoint.

But you'd also prolly wonder if I tell you that most CD players use 1-bit D/A converters (bitstream-converters), and noone ever complained...but not outputting 96KHz/24 bit is a huuuge problem :?

Who said anything about 96khz? :?
 
You haven't, but rr was talking about SACD, which has 96 KHZ AFAIK. Or was it even 192 like DVD-A?

Nothing audiable or possible with any speaker anyway. Nice explanation here.

EDIT: just found it, SACD has the freq response going up to ~100 KHz.
 
sir doris said:
isn't 96KHz and 192KHz the sample freq not the top end of the analouge freqency range?

The signal is sampled digitally ("sampled", hope that rings?). Analog signals don't have anything like sample frequency, they're comprised of indefinite number of frequencies. Each digital sample is one momentary snap of the analog signal, in this case 96000 or 192000 snaps/second. That's how analog to digital conversion happens.
 
_xxx_ said:
You haven't, but rr was talking about SACD, which has 96 KHZ AFAIK. Or was it even 192 like DVD-A?

Nothing audiable or possible with any speaker anyway. Nice explanation here.

EDIT: just found it, SACD has the freq response going up to ~100 KHz.

96khz sampling means 48khz upper frequency
88khz sampling means 44khz
44.1khz sampling means 22khz
192khz sampling means 96khz (there is no point in sampling at this high rate).


In fact, we can’t really hear any significant difference above about 64,000 samples per second (a "sample rate" of 64 kHz), but the DVD-A sample rates of 88.2 and 96 kHz are simple multiples of the 44.1 and 48 kHz rates used in CD and DVD-Video, which means that converting between them is easier and sounds better
 
PC-Engine said:
96khz sampling means 48khz upper frequency
88khz sampling means 44khz
44.1khz sampling means 22khz

Theoretically, but that's the worst-case Nyquist scenario. If you want good conversion quality, you'll probably try getting at least 4 samples/period. So 96 KHz sampling would mean "good quality" 24 KHz upper frequency.
 
_xxx_ said:
PC-Engine said:
96khz sampling means 48khz upper frequency
88khz sampling means 44khz
44.1khz sampling means 22khz

Theoretically, but that's the worst-case Nyquist scenario. If you want good conversion quality, you'll probably try getting at least 4 samples/period. So 96 KHz sampling would mean "good quality" 24 KHz upper frequency.

True theoretically. :)
 
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