Sony's Next Generation Portable unveiling - PSP2 in disguise

Well, NGP runs at nearly half the resolution of 720p, the MGS4 scene was also running at a lower frame-rate (a 3rd lower). It was very impressive though.

Seeing those examples doesn't physically make the system as powerful as PS3. However, in it's own right the architecture is very sophisticated and has many perks from the perspective of advanced shader effects and performance/efficiency.

The NGP architecture is almost certainly easier to program for, looking at the general consensus on ARM/PowerVr technology, compared to the Cell BE. MGS4 doesn't take advantage of the PS3's hardware to nearly the extent of later titles. If we start throwing in SSAO, sophisticated global illumination, lot's of physical simulations and so on, we probably wouldn't expect the same performance, even in a cut-scene...

Personally, I think the NGP's architecture should be considered on it's own merits. Developers can often produce much more from the hardware than we see in games, and hand-helds themselves give another set of opportunities to get the best out of the confines of the technology. Right now, I wouldn't be surprised if better results than MGS4 are produced on a handheld now in 2011, considering it was an engine developed in 2005 and the first time the team made a production based on shader based architecture, or anything near as complex as PS3.

Also bear in mind, they would have had to make significant considerations to the engine running on completely different rendering and processing architecture, giving rise to an opportunity to tailor the tech demo/scene for the portable.

Exactly.

Is NGP as powerful as a PS3? No way, but it should get results alot closer to HD console graphics on a smaller scale than what the raw spec suggest.

Anyone have a clue as to how many FLOPs the quad core CPU puts out ?
 
Exactly.

Is NGP as powerful as a PS3? No way, but it should get results alot closer to HD console graphics on a smaller scale than what the raw spec suggest.

Anyone have a clue as to how many FLOPs the quad core CPU puts out ?

Depends heavily on whether or not it has NEON and what clock speed. If it does on every core that's two FP32 FMACs per cycle but with a lot of latency (something like 10+ cycles)
 
Exactly.

Is NGP as powerful as a PS3? No way, but it should get results alot closer to HD console graphics on a smaller scale than what the raw spec suggest.

Anyone have a clue as to how many FLOPs the quad core CPU puts out ?
MT framework mobile is the framework for mobile device the opening part of lsot planet two is shown to you rendered real time on NGP

I'm sure you have seen the PS3 version and the quality on NGP is just as good. MT framework mobile for NGP as a matter of fact can run the full specification framework so shadows as well as HDR rendering just like PS3 can all be done. The difference is the geometry processing. Light filters shadow filters and all the physics are the same. NGP specification is not yet to be announced for game developers a greater flexibility is offered by this engine.

That is a transcript from the conference in regards to a cut scene from lost planet 2 running in real time. He admits that the geometry is not as good. However, he claims everything else is just as good. This is with only working on it for two weeks.

Is he lying or telling the truth?
 
That is a transcript from the conference in regards to a cut scene from lost planet 2 running in real time. He admits that the geometry is not as good. However, he claims everything else is just as good. This is with only working on it for two weeks.

Is he lying or telling the truth?

he is most likely fuging alot. Even if he isn't lieing its still running at only half the resolution of the title on the ps3 and thus only needing half the power to run the scene.
 
are we going to see difference like this in same special effects on NGP and PS3?

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/screenshots/medium/2007/08/Fur_Shader.jpg

the NGP GPU support SM 4.1 right?
The SGX543 was designed as a handheld GPU and doesn't ascribe to DirectX specs. It's the later SGX544 that brings things in conformance with DirectX 9 feature level 3 SM3.0 and the SGX545 that adds DirectX 10.1 SM4.1 support. The SGX543 in the NGP should basically be DirectX 9 SM3.0 level though, which incidentally would be comparable to the PS3 and XBox 360 in feature set so a current gen console in your pocket as Sony claims.
 
Guys is there a head phone jack on this thing ? I can't find one


Also the battery isn't removable ? That may be a big no no to me.

With my dsi i allways have a second battery not far away if i'm going on an extended trip
 
The SGX543 was designed as a handheld GPU and doesn't ascribe to DirectX specs. It's the later SGX544 that brings things in conformance with DirectX 9 feature level 3 SM3.0 and the SGX545 that adds DirectX 10.1 SM4.1 support. The SGX543 in the NGP should basically be DirectX 9 SM3.0 level though, which incidentally would be comparable to the PS3 and XBox 360 in feature set so a current gen console in your pocket as Sony claims.

Truth is probably that in the embedded space you don't really need all the requirements for DX-whatever. Since those things can also tessellate there are some capabilities that go even beyond 4.1. The point is that in a smart-phone so far it was overkill to have larger than 2048*2048 maximum sized textures; that shouldn't mean that it's the only difference between a 543 and a 545. First is rated at 8mm2 and the latter at 12.5mm2 under 65nm. Otherwise on a pure unit count there are quite a few similarities between the two, apart from the ALUs which have twice the throughput/clock on 543. Then again ALUs are always one of the cheapest components considering die area.

The SGX543 MP4 is IMHO closer in capabilities to Xenos than to RSX itself. You can't combine HDR with MSAA on the latter for example.
 
Did powervr remove the ability of order independant trasparency from their chip a while back and if so, would it be possible that PSP2 would have that implemented as well?
I'm quite sure that developers wouldn't mind that single feature.
 
What I would like for him to say, but I'll understand if he won't, is his reaction to the device. Is it a game changer, or the same old only more of it? He's bound to be biased, but - how does it feel.

Well, everyone's opinion of what a 'game changer' is differs, but I think it's clearly a big step-up from existing portable devices in terms of power. The OLED screen is significant though, no doubt. The clarity of the image on it is slightly disturbing when you first see it.. it reminded me of when I first saw the Sony XEL-1 display. Fantastic colour reproduction and viewing angles, and - most importantly - no ghosting at all.

I've not held one of the final form factor kits in my hands yet.. as they're not in circulation yet. I do think what initial titles have shown of rear touch panel usage is pretty impressive. Even with the current development kit form factor, the use of the rear touch panel in Uncharted feels very natural, and it side-steps what I dislike most about action-based gaming (shooters, racing games etc) on my iPhone - that the use of touch controls can end up with your hands/fingers covering a massive chunk of the screen.

So yeah, I like it.

Dean
 
543MP8 is perfectly reasonable in a PSP-sized form factor for 45nm, so Sony could've given RSX a run for its money.

As is, the efficiencies and benefits of PowerVR, the 2bpp texture compression being one of several advantages, help to close the gap somewhat. Being both a TBDR and a USC of course helps doubly with workload dependencies.
 
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One good thing about OLED is that we shouldn't be cursed with any outrageous ghosting problems this time.

No, but you should worry about losing half the screen's brightness after 2 years of use.


Now for a far-fetched question:

3D gaming-wise, how would the quad A9s + SGX543MP4 compare to AMD's C-50 (dual-bobcat @1GHz + 16*VLIW5+8TMUs+4 ROPs @ 280MHz)?
Performance-wise, how close is the NGP's system to AMD's lowest-power x86 APU?
 
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Well, everyone's opinion of what a 'game changer' is differs, but I think it's clearly a big step-up from existing portable devices in terms of power. The OLED screen is significant though, no doubt. The clarity of the image on it is slightly disturbing when you first see it.. it reminded me of when I first saw the Sony XEL-1 display. Fantastic colour reproduction and viewing angles, and - most importantly - no ghosting at all.

I've not held one of the final form factor kits in my hands yet.. as they're not in circulation yet. I do think what initial titles have shown of rear touch panel usage is pretty impressive. Even with the current development kit form factor, the use of the rear touch panel in Uncharted feels very natural, and it side-steps what I dislike most about action-based gaming (shooters, racing games etc) on my iPhone - that the use of touch controls can end up with your hands/fingers covering a massive chunk of the screen.

So yeah, I like it.

Dean

Agreed completely...

The screen's nice a big & picture clarity is great (although not as surprising for me I must admit after getting my Samsung Wave phone with it's glorious AMOLED display...)

Our teams are still getting to grips with the hardware as yet but from some of the ideas I've seen circulating around the studio on usage of the front/back touch pads + tilt etc, it should make for some pretty neat gameplay ideas hopefully...
 
Kojima/Konami mentioned it in the press conference.

http://www.engadget.com/liveblog/live-from-sonys-tokyo-event/

20fps.
Then again, a lot of MGS4 cutscenes on PS3 run at that type of framerate already, and in 1024x768. Now, to be honest, that particular scene ran fine on PS3.

The NGP is obviously lagging behind the PS3 in sheer rendering power. But it's still an impressive piece of work for a handheld.

are we going to see difference like this in same special effects on NGP and PS3?

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/screenshots/medium/2007/08/Fur_Shader.jpg

the NGP GPU support SM 4.1 right?

Fur shading is pretty much a vertex only effect in itself (transparent texture on a volume, which in its turn is inflated uniformly. The more layers, the better the effect). That "DX10" implementation in Lost Planet seems just to add a post processing pixel shader effect (be it screen space or on the surface itself, I cannot say). In other words, you don't need D3D10 feature set to achieve such an effect.

In the rendering world, real-time or not, there many ways to obtain the same effect. It's always a matter of balancing the performance/result ratio.

And in this particular case, I think it's just a PC-exclusive effect Capcom/Nvidia tied to DX10 because... well, Nvidia had G80 DX10 compatible GPUs to sell.

The only thing I would question is the Texture one. It might physically be able to hold more textures and or better textures depending on final ram amounts and usage. However whether it has the power to display all those high res textures is another matter.

You will anger our TBDR overlords with your lack of faith in SGX!

More seriously, texture filtrate available at launch (in case of some downclocking shenanigans) would be an interesting information. From what I gather, fillrate is good on devkits, now it's just a matter of defining what "good" stands for in numbers.

if the 128MB of VRAM is true I would love to see how easy it can run wii ports just for the hell of it lol isn't that more VRAM than the Wii has total RAM?

It would run Wii ports in 960x544 (Around twice the resolution the Wii renders at in 640x480), without breaking a sweat. Wii is 1999-2000 DX7 class era hardware, let's not forget about that.

& I think this will be perfect for Dreamcast games on PSN , Dreamcast had a PowerVR GPU with 4MB VRAM & the NGP has a PowerVR SGX543MP4+ GPU with 128MB of VRAM 32 x more VRAM alone this should make lite work of Dreamcast EMU .

right?
VRAM is just RAM dedicated to video work. In other words, it has no serious bearing on the capabilities or the compatibility of the platform while emulating/reproducing work of other architecture.

It's more a question of how fast the GPU can read, write and access (Read, Write, Random Access and Latency) the memory. And something tells me that Dreamcast ports aren't going to hurt the SGX543MP4+ much. Now, as far as emulation goes, I'd say you'd have enough grunt power to emulate this thing correctly, yeah. Now, who would wrote that emulator? Sega doesn't really need to emulate the whole thing to get DC games on the thing, especially if they have source code lying around. Obviously a full blown emulator would allow Sega to propose DC games more easily à la PSOne Classics. There's a business opportunity here, indeed.

Dreamcast had a custom PowerVR2 graphics chip with 8 MB RAM.
PVR2DC or CLX2, you of all the posters here should remember that chip by its real name! :p
 
The SGX543 MP4 is IMHO closer in capabilities to Xenos than to RSX itself. You can't combine HDR with MSAA on the latter for example.
Man, I can hear nAo (Marco Salvi) screaming from the U.S.
 
Man, I can hear nAo (Marco Salvi) screaming from the U.S.

That's nothing new... probably screams at least once a day because someone somewhere is murdering computer graphics... (he better not see my OpenGL ES code then :p).

NGP-wise, I was hoping for UMA... dedicated VRAM helps you in a way because it is a nice carrot rewarding you for using VBO's for example, but I think that a UMA approach helps with minimizing space and bandwidth issues as you will not need to copy data around, double buffer transfers, etc...

Also, the CPU and GPU can more easily work together rendering and processing data (given that the sGX543MP is OpenCL compliant, the ability of using compute shaders could come quite handy sometimes).
 
Man, I can hear nAo (Marco Salvi) screaming from the U.S.
Then again SGX supports programmable blending in theory, so that might be a scream of joy at the potential of NAO32 ;) (hopefully programmable blending coexists nicely with MSAA, but even if it doesn't that's not the end of the world since you can resolve first).
 
No, but you should worry about losing half the screen's brightness after 2 years of use.

If by 2 years you mean around 10 years then sure...


Now for a far-fetched question:

3D gaming-wise, how would the quad A9s + SGX543MP4 compare to AMD's C-50 (dual-bobcat @1GHz + 16*VLIW5+8TMUs+4 ROPs @ 280MHz)?
Performance-wise, how close is the NGP's system to AMD's lowest-power x86 APU?

NGP is more powerful than any Fusion product currently on the market and draws less power at peak. x86 is wholly unsuited to embedded portable products.
 
If by 2 years you mean around 10 years then sure...




NGP is more powerful than any Fusion product currently on the market and draws less power at peak. x86 is wholly unsuited to embedded portable products.

Can you comment on the custom Sony parts in the GPU? the rumour also said that CPU had a Sony developed vector unit, something about this or NDA?.

Thank you.
 
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