Sony's Cross-Generation Game Messaging [2021]

[chris1515]

So video game consoles are 16 years behind offline rendering ?

You actually think it will catch up to off line rendering at some point? You do know that offline rendering continues to get access to faster and faster performance

just look at what 16 years did for Incredibles

Did I say it will catch up to offline rendering? This is a moving target. And they won't be 16 years behind offline rendering. Games are more 5/10 years late in shading. Since last generation on PS4 and Xbox One shading is better than many movie older than 10 years ago. I think at the end of the generation, we will be not far from assets quality of offline rendering out of probably vegetation or other special case. We will improve a lot the LOD problem but probably not be able to hide it everywhere. After everything else is in my other post.

The first goal is not to catch offline rendering but produce something so good it will be impossible to know this is not offline rendering no matters if there is 10 or 15 years or more of quality between offline rendering and realtime rendering. I hope one day realtime rendering will reach it.

And this is what I say when we are far from offline rendering for example asset quality(geometry, texture details) peaked before raytracing arrival on offline rendering. I don't expect realtime rendering to reach offline rendering lighting quality or physics effect and so on. But having when needed 1 polygon per pixel or even subpixel details like in hair, this is great and maybe we aren't far the day where we will not see any visible polygon. Same with texture quality 1 texel per pixel. I expect big improvement in anti aliasing but maybe it will be solved on next generation console with PS6 and Xbox Series X, same for motion blur or depth of field.



http://lousodrome.net/blog/light/20...ased-rendering-references-at-the-end-of-2019/

Some few movies before 2010 were using PBR but it was not the standard in the offline rendering industry.

I am not sure why adoption also happened at the same in the film industry (instead of much earlier), despite having different constraints than real-time. Films made before 2010 were mostly ad hoc, until a wave converted nearly the entire industry to unbiased path tracing.

I gathered a first PBR reading list back in 2011, but since then, the community has collectively made strides of progress. I also have a better understanding of the topic myself. So I think it is time to revisit it with a new, updated (and unfortunately, longer) reading list.

 

[snc]

It has AAA pricing Returnal is £69.99.

Returnal (PS5): Amazon.co.uk: PC & Video Games

I know, price doesn’t make it aaa game and Housemarque top tier studio :d

 

[London Geezer]

Surely we’re not going to whinge about £70 games every time we see one come out? New normal guys!

 

[orangpelupa]

Surely we’re not going to whinge about £70 games every time we see one come out? New normal guys!

I whined, then canceled my PS5 pre order since they announced the games will be around 1 million IDR, about 50%-100% more expensive than current games.

If PSPlus ( still have subs until 2022 IIRC) became like gamepass, then ill probably buy a PS5.

 

[milk]

Real time will never catch up to offline in absolute terms, but with every gen, the PERCEPTUAL gap is shorter and shorter, even though the technological one might not be. Professionals and enthusiasts that know what to look for aside, of course.

 

[snc]

I’m not totally agreeing that R&C is “Pixar quality”... but Pixar quality of 15 years ago is still absolutely amazing and still a bit far from what we can do in real time today!

yep, also there is no massive leap in for example cars 1 from 2006 to cars 3 from 2017

this style of graphic can't be much better

 

[London Geezer]

yep, also there is no massive leap in for example cars 1 from 2006 to cars 3 from 2017

this style of graphic can't be much better

I mean, when was Finding Nemo? Must be about 15 years? We're still quite far, even though things have progressed a lot in the last few years!

 

[London Geezer]

Also, not sure this is the right thread for this? We had a 'real time Pixar' kind of thread some time ago.

 

[SumoSaki]

Surely we’re not going to whinge about £70 games every time we see one come out? New normal guys!

I won't whinge but I'll simply wait for the correct price of £39.99 not the Covid price.

 

[Globalisateur]

I won't whinge but I'll simply wait for the correct price of £39.99 not the Covid price.

Yep. And it'll get there eventually.

 

[eastmen]

Did I say it will catch up to offline rendering? This is a moving target. And they won't be 16 years behind offline rendering. Games are more 5/10 years late in shading. Since last generation on PS4 and Xbox One shading is better than many movie older than 10 years ago. I think at the end of the generation, we will be not far from assets quality of offline rendering out of probably vegetation or other special case. We will improve a lot the LOD problem but probably not be able to hide it everywhere. After everything else is in my other post.

The first goal is not to catch offline rendering but produce something so good it will be impossible to know this is not offline rendering no matters if there is 10 or 15 years or more of quality between offline rendering and realtime rendering. I hope one day realtime rendering will reach it.

And this is what I say when we are far from offline rendering for example asset quality(geometry, texture details) peaked before raytracing arrival on offline rendering. I don't expect realtime rendering to reach offline rendering lighting quality or physics effect and so on. But having when needed 1 polygon per pixel or even subpixel details like in hair, this is great and maybe we aren't far the day where we will not see any visible polygon. Same with texture quality 1 texel per pixel. I expect big improvement in anti aliasing but maybe it will be solved on next generation console with PS6 and Xbox Series X, same for motion blur or depth of field.



http://lousodrome.net/blog/light/20...ased-rendering-references-at-the-end-of-2019/

Some few movies before 2010 were using PBR but it was not the standard in the offline rendering industry.

The only way to make something that is impossible to know is offline rendering or not is to make it as good as offline rendering. So you need to catch it first and its a moving target. If something really good is implemented into real time rendering then it will get implemented into offline rendering also.

Here is another issue. I don't see anyhting that comes close to looking like Incredibles 2 or frozen 2 or onward being done on real time hardware in a game senario. I haven't seen it on the ps5 or xbox series x or ps5 and all those movies pre-date the next gen hardware itself. This generation of hardware is going to come and go and while the games will look much better moving up the chain of old offline rendered movies it will still be way behind the pace. I have said it before but I am still waiting for something to hit the shrek 2 storming of the castle

I've played the demon souls remake and it gets close but its still not there yet in animation or complexity imo.

Its just never going to catch up because at the end of the day there is already better hardware out there than the ps5 and pixar and dream works don't just use one piece of hardware. If they wanted to they could have all top of the line amd gpus with 32 cores and huge amounts of ram with multiple professional versions of the 6900xt and they can have hundreds of them devoting hours or days to a single frame of animation.

 

[chris1515]

The only way to make something that is impossible to know is offline rendering or not is to make it as good as offline rendering. So you need to catch it first and its a moving target. If something really good is implemented into real time rendering then it will get implemented into offline rendering also.

Here is another issue. I don't see anyhting that comes close to looking like Incredibles 2 or frozen 2 or onward being done on real time hardware in a game senario. I haven't seen it on the ps5 or xbox series x or ps5 and all those movies pre-date the next gen hardware itself. This generation of hardware is going to come and go and while the games will look much better moving up the chain of old offline rendered movies it will still be way behind the pace. I have said it before but I am still waiting for something to hit the shrek 2 storming of the castle

I've played the demon souls remake and it gets close but its still not there yet in animation or complexity imo.

Its just never going to catch up because at the end of the day there is already better hardware out there than the ps5 and pixar and dream works don't just use one piece of hardware. If they wanted to they could have all top of the line amd gpus with 32 cores and huge amounts of ram with multiple professional versions of the 6900xt and they can have hundreds of them devoting hours or days to a single frame of animation.

Again you have a big difference between for example in engine prerendered trailer with games assets and true realtime gameplay or cutscene. And it doesn't need to reach the level of the last Planet of Apes movie or Avengers End Game. I don't speak about reaching cutting edge offline rendering but to be unable to know if something is prerendered or not.

The day we will not know if something is prerendered in engine or realtime, this will be a huge day. This is the first step. This is what I think when I speak about offline rendering quality videogame. Currently this is easy to see artifact everywhere in videogame. It is more difficult in cutscene and I hope impossible before end of current generation. But the best will be when it will be very difficult to spot in gameplay out of clipping problem.

First have assets without any artifact from last generation rendering, visible polygon, hair card, no subsurface scattering during gameplay, bad resolution texture and bad texture filtering and resolve continuous level of detail problem and so on.* After There are some improvement to do in AA (edge and shader AA), motion blur, depth of field, VFX and postprocessing effect quality. And finally all the improvement to do with Global illumination and raytracing.

Out of rendering problem to solve it will be important to improve animation or scene complexity.

This was "prerendered" running at a non interactive framerate on PS4(1 or 2 frames per second maybe?).

Same here:

This is what I want to reach when about "prerendered" realtime quality. The day we will be unable to do the difference between prerendred in engine with games assets and realtime games.

The day devs without a fully optimized game engine will be able to use a prerenderd in engine trailer with game assets for the marketing of a game and be able to deliver a game nearly as good as the trailer will be THE day I want to reach.

EDIT: Imo the biggest difference is to remove many artifacts in realtime rendering after we can think to reach one day the rendering level of the last planet of apes for example

* Maybe this first part will be fully solve after PS6/Xbox Series 2.

EDIT: And I know there are things old rendering oflline movie does better than games. The first Toy Story has better edge anti aliasing, motion blur and depth of field than realtime videogame.

 

[PSman1700]

The day when games are going to match high budget CGI movies is very very far away. In special on 500 dollar consoles.

 

[BRiT]

Seems like a bold move launching a multiplayer only game on a new supply constrained platform.

They now have plans to add bots at sometime in the future to deal with low player counts for all but the competitive focused Blitz mode.

Destruction AllStars, released in February exclusively on PS5, doesn’t seem to have a huge community of players online. So to help improve matchmaking the developers have announced plans to add online bots.

Other features being added at some point to Destruction AllStars include a playlist feature, global parties, and improving slams. None of this stuff, including the bots, have release dates but will be added in the future as Lucid Games continues to support the game.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1398706416827998216

 

[Arwin]

CGI offline VS realtime is a bit of a done to death discussion. It all comes down to what year and what movie you want to compare current games to, on the one hand, where stacks of computers could have been working on minutes worth of frames for weeks on the one hand, and the point where hardware becomes so powerful that the movies themselves can be done in real-time on hardware so cheap it can go in consoles (or streamed from the cloud or whatever).

I bet you could draw a curve where initially the offline renderer moves away from the real-time hardware really fast, and then eventually the real-time renderer catches up faster and faster in terms of the differences a person watching can actually tell (you can still spend absurd amount of power on rendering individual water molecules flowing from a tap).

And I think if we look at some of the rendering in games like Ratchet & Clank, and depending on the genre of game you compare with, we are in the phase where consoles are catching up and the gap is closing.

 

[chris1515]

CGI offline VS realtime is a bit of a done to death discussion. It all comes down to what year and what movie you want to compare current games to, on the one hand, where stacks of computers could have been working on minutes worth of frames for weeks on the one hand, and the point where hardware becomes so powerful that the movies themselves can be done in real-time on hardware so cheap it can go in consoles (or streamed from the cloud or whatever).

I bet you could draw a curve where initially the offline renderer moves away from the real-time hardware really fast, and then eventually the real-time renderer catches up faster and faster in terms of the differences a person watching can actually tell (you can still spend absurd amount of power on rendering individual water molecules flowing from a tap).

And I think if we look at some of the rendering in games like Ratchet & Clank, and depending on the genre of game you compare with, we are in the phase where consoles are catching up and the gap is closing.

I think the interesting discussion will be in engine against realtime. I hope some of the innovation will push realtime graphics borderline in engine like continuous LOD, virtual shadow maps or raytraced shadows, hair rendenring with analytical AA like frosbite, maybe in the future a new way to do vegetation, realtime GI and RT and so on...

Some part of it is some bug but the popin in the last Horizon 2 Forbbiden West is annoying. I think the vegetation popin is mostly bug but shadow maps pop in comes from usage of cascade shadow maps.

Offline renderer will always be above realtime rendering but I think the day we will not able to know if a trailer is in engine or realtime we will be good. For some of the problem like clipping maybe AI will give a solution to solve the problem.

 

[PSman1700]

Looks at Avatar (2009), looks at current best looking video games /lol. Were far ways off unless your blind.

 

[Nesh]

Looks at Avatar (2009), looks at current best looking video games /lol. Were far ways off unless your blind.

Avatar 2009 looks miles better than Incredibles 3 too. Both are CGI.

 

[PSman1700]

Avatar 2009 looks miles better than Incredibles 3 too. Both are CGI.

Yes, absolutely. If were comparing todays best gaming graphics its an idea to compare that to the best CGI films created i think.
Were far behind what CGI has done in 2009 with avatar. 10+ year old CGI production by now….. and its not even close for gaming really.

 

[Nesh]

Yes, absolutely. If were comparing todays best gaming graphics its an idea to compare that to the best CGI films created i think.
Were far behind what CGI has done in 2009 with avatar. 10+ year old CGI production by now….. and its not even close for gaming really.

I am not agreeable that we should be comparing to the best CGI films. Incredibles 3 is a 2022 release, Avatar is a 2009 movie and still doesnt look like Avatar and it doesnt have to.