SONY's 1st party games as good as Nintendo's!

[Ozymandis]

Ok my mistake on that one.

Apology accepted

Didn't you have a problem with Metroid Prime for that very reason though? That the camera just follows you without allowing you to move the camera independentally from the characters movement with a seperate stick (like a normal FPS)?

You're talking apples and oranges here.

Wether SMS is as good as it should be being 6 years after SM64, or not, doesn't change how good a game it is by itself. It doesn't change the fact that its still either the best (IMO) or one of the best platformers today (for the massive majority of people). If you don't like the game for some reason then fine, but anyone can see its a AAA game.

I don't deny that it's a AAA game. I'm sure that Mario sold quite a few Gamecubes this year. But for me, the game failed to impress, that's what I'm saying. Generally, I think that the entire 3d platforming genre is pretty bad. Give me my 2d platformers instead

BTW This is an instance of what I mentioned earlier in a post to someone else. Nintendo's games often get rated more harshley because they follow such, well for want of a better word 'perfect', games (like SM64).

I agree with you somewhat. I think that more often Nintendo games get overrated for the brand name than not, but some instances (Gamespot's SMS review) I can see what you mean.

 

[Logan Leonhart]

For example, OoT is touted as the best game ever. For me, it is an 8 at most, due to various factors, such as lack of challenge, lack of a good storytelling, uninspired environments and a hollow world (there was hardly anything in Hyrule).

We know you would not have any problem if Square was considered as the best dev in the world.

I´m saying OoT was a very dissapointing game for me. It was even quite boring at times (navigating Hyrule was a waste of time, since things were far away and what was there wasn´t very exiting to begin with), the only thing I liked about it was the Z targetting to tell the truth.

In any case, I feel that way about Zelda and I have every right to be like that, since I completed the game 100% (I was a Nintendo fanboy at the time, and even then I couldn´t call it the best game ever). I think it´s one of the most overrated games in history, and the fact that it was a Miyamoto game carrying the Nintendo label affected scores greatly.

 

[Tagrineth]

Ozy: I brought up the graphics of SF64 because you said there's "no way Star Fox can live up to PDO's visuals" or something like that.

SF64 wasn't a technical marvel by any means, but the art was very good, and the graphics were some of N64's best IMO.

What makes you think Armada won't follow up with another marvelous-looking game?

And where does the Saturn fit into this? Yes I know the original PD games were on it, I played Saga a little bit, but I wasn't comparing SF64 to any of the old PD's, I'm just saying it can certainly compare on an artistic basis.

I don't think the Star Fox series is meant to be deep at all, that's why I said

And no depth of universe? Right...

I meant to say 'tell me something I don't know'. Depth really isn't that relevant for a bloody on-rails shooter IMO.

In summary: All I'm really saying is it really is not fair to discredit Armada so quickly, and say 'oh well there's no way it can match PDO this and that'. Wait and see. Judging from the past (SF64) Armada should have some great art direction.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Starfox and Panzer Dragoon were Rail shooters because of techninal limitations, in this age, the gameplay should be a lot more open ended on both accounts.

 

[wazoo]

Starfox and Panzer Dragoon were Rail shooters because of techninal limitations, in this age, the gameplay should be a lot more open ended on both accounts.

Ozy : that is my POV. If you like shooters on raiil, there is no problem for that, but there is no denying that this genre was born on consoles like the CDI or 3do due to technical limitations. The fact they changed FMV by realtime controlled 3d does not change the gameplay at all. Anyway, I do not deny that graphics and immersion in Ortta are really really good.

In any case, I feel that way about Zelda and I have every right to be like that, since I completed the game 100% (I was a Nintendo at the time, and even then I couldn´t call it the best game ever). I think it´s one of the most overrated games in history, and the fact that it was a Miyamoto game carrying the Nintendo label affected scores greatly.

You can not please everybody. Check gamerankings for general opinion on this title. Ah, ok, scores are overrated. I feel the same about Square games (even if I often like them).

 

[Ty]

Born on consoles? I might be showing my age here but wasn't Space Harrier was in the arcades long before this genre showed up on consoles?

 

[Crazyace]

I think there are earlier examples than that

I remember Buck Rogers being one of the earlier 3d shooting games,
or you could go way back to Tail Gunner ( 3d vector graphics game ) or even StarWars..
I tend to think of shooters such as SF64 and Panzer xxxx as successors to the 2d shooters, as they share a lot of the same design goals

 

[Ozymandis]

Tagrineth, I'm sorry, I guess I misunderstood your original post

Ozy : that is my POV. If you like shooters on raiil, there is no problem for that, but there is no denying that this genre was born on consoles like the CDI or 3do due to technical limitations. The fact they changed FMV by realtime controlled 3d does not change the gameplay at all. Anyway, I do not deny that graphics and immersion in Ortta are really really good.

Rail shooters might have begun because of technical limitations. But they have persisted because there are clear advantages to them over free-roaming 3d shooters-

1) Because the developer has complete control over what exactly the player will be seeing, the gameplay can be extremely visceral. Literally, you see the vision of the designer as you play.

2) Rail shooters never feel aimless. The goals are always straightforward, even though the tactics may vary. Free-roaming shooters (especially in large 3d worlds) often strike me as vague and pointless.

3) Rail shooters are easier to "make pretty", for obvious reasons.


Elaborating on what Crazyace said, rail shooters are much closer to the fantastic gameplay of the great 2d shooters of old. To me, this is preferable... and frankly, I haven't really played any free shooters that I'd describe as "great". Rogue Leader is a perfect example of how I feel about the genre. One week after I got that game I was back to playing Rez on my Dreamcast

 

[wazoo]

Rail shooters might have begun because of technical limitations. But they have persisted because there are clear advantages to them over free-roaming 3d shooters-

One/Two new game every 3 years (REZ/PDO) each with very bad sales is not was I would call "persistence".

Elaborating on what Crazyace said, rail shooters are much closer to the fantastic gameplay of the great 2d shooters of old. To me, this is preferable... and frankly, I haven't really played any free shooters that I'd describe as "great". Rogue Leader is a perfect example of how I feel about the genre. One week after I got that game I was back to playing Rez on my Dreamcast

I agree with you on the analogy with 2d shooters. I do not see what make you laugh about prefering REZ to RL. Both critics and the market have shown they prefer RL to REZ (I do not own any of them) by far.

 

[Tagrineth]

Actually StarFox 2 was a not-quite-on-rails on-rails shooter... it's pretty fun - all the levels are done in SF64's "All range mode" style, with a few spaceship interiours which even have automaps for navigation You can even convert the flyer into a walker if there's ground to land on

Unfortunately the version I've played is all Japanese and very buggy, but in any case...

 

[Lazy8s]

Crazyace:

I remember Buck Rogers being one of the earlier 3d shooting games,
or you could go way back to Tail Gunner ( 3d vector graphics game ) or even StarWars..

I remember Buck Rogers too! I played that game a lot on my Commodore 64. Good fun.

For early 2D scrolling shooters, River Raid for the Atari 2600 was one of my favorites.

As for CaptainHowdy and wazoo's comments about the rail-shooters being limited, good rail shooters don't provide any more of a limited experience to free roamers in my opinion... they just provide their depth in another way, namely the skills and strategy aspect needed for surviving their more immediate and frenzied action.

Rail shooters have always used rails to intentionally provide a different kind of play experience, not because of technical limitations.

wazoo:

Both critics and the market have shown they prefer RL to REZ (I do not own any of them) by far.

I would say Rez and Panzer Dragoon Orta both captured comparable critical acclaim to Rogue Leader. Sales, of course, is a different story and the product of many other factors (Star Wars license never hurts).

 

[marconelly!]

While the gameplay in Rez is simpler than your average 3D shooter nowadays, that game is just an amazing experience. I play it over and over because it makes me feel good and happy. It's simple as that. What more can I ask from a game?

 

[Rancidm]

Personally, I think that MS has come a long way in a short time:

Halo
Project Gotham Racing
Rallisport Challenge
Amped
MechAssault

That's a pretty good list after 14 months in the business.

Sony has improved a lot with:

ICO
GT3
Mark of Kri
Sly Cooper
Ratchet & Clank
Jak & Dakster

I think both are nearly as good as Nintendo now.

At gamerankings.com they're ranked like this:

Nintendo
Microsoft
Sony

Project Gotham Racing
Rallisport Challenge
Amped
MechAssault

(2 racing games, one of which isn't exclusive, a snowboarding game, and a mech game????)

None of those games are even in the same league as what we're discussing. Those games are pretty decent, but there's nothing overly original, groundbreaking, or creative about them. IMO, Microsoft biggest problem is they don't have any must-have titles for their system. I honestly can't think of one game I'd want to go out and buy an xbox for... (maybe halo..but that'll probably be better for computer if it even comes out.)

 

[Teasy]

You're talking apples and oranges here.

Hmm, well you said:

Personally, I want a game's camera as simple as possible. Keep it behind me at all times please. Don't distract me with it.

If you only mean a platformer game then please be more specific.

I don't deny that it's a AAA game.

Ah, I read back and realised that I misunderstood you when you said you didn't think it was an A game. I thought you meant it wasn't an AAA game.