Sony VR Headset/Project Morpheus/PlayStation VR

[MrFox]

But he is right, it's the rolling shutter effect. And oculus is supposed to be using a custom oled screen which switch all pixels at the same time, for the cost of a little more average latency. This takes care of the rolling effect. The faster the refresh, the less visible it will be though, as he was talking about 60 which was unacceptable with quick head movements. The lcd is so slow that it smears the image which masks the effect.

Nobody said to have noticed this kind of artifacts on psvr, so either they also have the same technique, or it's fast enough not to matter.

Carmack is very knowledgeable and honest in his technical presentations, when he says something is a problem, it is a problem, and everything he says applies to all competitors. (I wouldn't say the same of Luckey but I digress)

 

[3dilettante]

Is there a link to the full source?
Outside of context, it reads like a statement of fact.

 

[MrFox]

For the record, my first sentence about their custom screen is what I remember oculus saying, the rest is only my interpretation of why it makes sense.

 

[hughJ]

The rolling shutter effect is easy to replicate on any desktop monitor that's vsynced. Just grab a window and drag it quickly side to side while tracking it with your eye. With a 60Hz display you'll see a shearing effect of 16ms worth of travel between top and bottom of the window, if you're using a 120Hz you'll see half as much, but it's still there. The effect is only readily apparent when the object is relatively fixed on the same spot on the retina. In an HMD with very fast head motions (too fast for your eyes to handle) you don't really notice it much, but if you're rotating your head quickly and smoothly and counter-rotating your eyes to keep your eyes fixed on the object then you will see shearing.

edit: Remember though that HMDs like the DK2 that are using a phone panel are often not scanning out in landscape, but rather in portrait. With the DK2 you would only see shearing with vertical rotation, and horizontal rotation would produce some kind of longitudinal stretching/squishing. This entire shearing effect is a byproduct of persistence of vision, so you're mitigating it somewhat already by having low persistence. I don't expect Valve and Oculus's global refresh panels to be all that world-changing, it probably just makes for more consistent and predictable behavior since you know that you're never going to get any weird side effects.

Abrash has a pretty comprehensive write up about this on his old Valve blog:
http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/raster-scan-displays-more-than-meets-the-eye/

ohn Carmack, works for Oculus Rift, a device that uses an LCD screen

Oculus and Valve were the first companies to make the shift to OLED 2 years ago, what are you talking about?

 

[MrFox]

They also said the reasons for the lower than expected resolution was because it wasn't possible yet to make a global refresh at any higher resolution than their 1200p, and that the available tranceivers were stuck at hdmi limits. Next gen will be interesting. It's easy to point at phones with a higher res, but they are rolling displays at 60 or 75. They really picked the best screen respecting all their requirements for a high end experience.

I am warming up to the idea of a photo/film viewer on a 4k lcd phone. It will be crap for any speedy games, but simple viewers should be great.

 

[hughJ]

There's some things you simply can't do without a rolling display however. Right now I'm working on a ray tracer for VR and would like the ability to do partial updates to the screen in order to render just ahead of the raster update, (or at the very least render each eye sequentially since the scan-out is side to side) in order to get the latency down to near zero, but with a global display you're pretty much stuck with having to use reprojection and prediction in order to get similar-ish low latencies.

edit:

and that the available tranceivers were stuck at hdmi limits

I actually think that's the crux of it, that and the performance cost. Had Oculus used a display with the PPI of the Galaxy S6 for example, you would end up having a really high pixel throughput that simply may be too high for the panel driver, the HDMI spec, or even reliable gef970 perf, since you'd be talking about a pre-warp buffer that's well beyond 4K. It's a safe bet at this point that we're not going to see further big jumps in resolution without foveated rendering getting nailed down.

The other thing to remember is that we've seen hints of Valve and Oculus bumping up against driver limitations already. The crystal cove prototype that the DK2 was based on was actually running at ~85Hz if I remember correctly, but when it came time for them to ship DK2s reliably in large quantities they opted for 75Hz. Likewise Valve mentioned somewhere along the way that their old dual Galaxy S4 prototype HMDs couldn't be pushed much beyond 90Hz.

 

[pjbliverpool]

John Carmack, works for Oculus Rift, a device that uses an LCD screen, talks down faster response tech on more modern display type of competitor.

Can't exactly say I'm shocked. I guess no future version of the Rift will use an LED display then.

Yes because Carmacks well known for PR spin

 

[pjbliverpool]

Is there a link to the full source?
Outside of context, it reads like a statement of fact.

Yeah sorry forgot to post it:

http://oculusrift-blog.com/john-carmacks-message-of-latency/682/

 

[MrFox]

The reprojection could correct line by line.... It has velocity info, and knows each line's window of emission on the timeline. This would be cool, right? No need for global update, then.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You think there's a next gen Fat Agnes in the break out box and the Copper is shifting each scanline?

 

[Metal_Spirit]

I have one question about the technology behind the Playstation VR. Maybe someone can enlighten me!

From what I've read (and the info may be incorrect), the Playstation VR uses a processor to apply a temporal reprojection technology to create extra frames (interpolation), to reach the 120 fps required for the glasses.
So I'm wondering. If the result is that good, what prevents Sony to sell us an external case with this chip that can put all the PS4 games at 60 fps on a regular LCD TV?
Do you believe this will ever be available?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It doesn't do full interpolation, but just shifts the position and scale of the image a fraction to adjust for head movement. TVs with frame interpolation (many of them) can already tween games to 60 fps in theory.

 

[scf]

It doesn't do full interpolation, but just shifts the position and scale of the image a fraction to adjust for head movement. TVs with frame interpolation (many of them) can already tween games to 60 fps in theory.

Yeah driveclub looks smoother with film filter enabled. Can't say I notice some lag as many claim.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

what are you talking about?

Okay, I'm happy to admit I was wrong about the display type of the Oculus Rift. Fundamentally, I find it a little frustrating that on every console gaming thread we keep getting PC gamers constantly doing drivebys trying to reassure everyone that “Crysis did this better”, “It looks like a 360 game”, “Oculus Rift will be superior”, ridiculous statements like “Samsung Gear is superior to PSVR”, or simply something along the lines of “just noticed I'd wandered into the console gaming forum. This game is magically better than all that came before…”.

I personally think that everyone should drop their biases when discussing here. It’s an unfortunate trend that you can tell most people’s biases from their posts before they’ve even stated their platform of choice, I’m also sure that I’m a little guilty (though I actively try to suppress it) of it. As soon as someone mentions that so-and-so game looks like “CG”, it’s like a ton of people drop and tell them why it isn’t. It’s daft really because for all intents and purposes everything we’re looking at and discussing are “CG”.

An interesting fact for me is that all the (non-mobile) virtual reality headsets are essentially a very, very close match with just different implementations; some have a higher resolution with a hz deficit, while another has a resolution deficit with higher hz. Or that one device uses pentile and another uses RGB.

To be fair I think that a lot of people really do reasonably discuss pros and cons, regardless of their chosen platform, but you do see an awful lot of predictable posts.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

It doesn't do full interpolation, but just shifts the position and scale of the image a fraction to adjust for head movement. TVs with frame interpolation (many of them) can already tween games to 60 fps in theory.

Yup, my Sony X series does "motion smoothing" at 60Hz, 120Hz and 240Hz where looks more and more eerie as you crank it up.

 

[upnorthsox]

What do you mean by eerie?

 

[RedVi]

Being aware of facts is always important in a tech (or any) discussion above all else. You should maybe look at outsiders input as the valuable differing perspective that any discussion about tech needs for it to be at all relevant. Knowing what the competition are doing is always important, even if you personally have no interest in their product for whatever reason. As annoying as bias and fanboyism can be, calling others out for bringing up facts and comparisons with competing products while not being aware of these facts does nothing to harbour a proper discussion. Comparisons are inevitable for an emerging tech that is set to be so revolutionary. Warding off what you see as fanboyism with unconfirmed facts is hardly going to bring an improvement to the level of fanboyism in the discussion.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Being aware of facts is always important in a tech (or any) discussion above all else. You should maybe look at outsiders input as the valuable differing perspective that any discussion about tech needs for it to be at all relevant. Knowing what the competition are doing is always important, even if you personally have no interest in their product for whatever reason. As annoying as bias and fanboyism can be, calling others out for bringing up facts and comparisons with competing products while not being aware of these facts does nothing to harbour a proper discussion. Comparisons are inevitable for an emerging tech that is set to be so revolutionary. Warding off what you see as fanboyism with unconfirmed facts is hardly going to bring an improvement to the level of fanboyism in the discussion.

And I agree.

I realise that I made a mistake in the post about the Rift being LCD and I have acknowledged it.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

What do you mean by eerie?

Because at higher levels you're getting more fake frames than real reference frames and motion, particularly when it's people moving about, looks freakish.

 

[Deleted member 7537]

Question from ignorance. How feasible would be to use psvr to play normal ps4 games , recreating for example a large theater where the game is displayed? i've read that when, for example, you use the oculus theater to watch a movie, because the theater takes up some part of the screen , the movie is displayed at a low res .