Sony VR Headset/Project Morpheus/PlayStation VR

[hesido]

A developer on NeoGAF paints a bleak picture of what to expect from VR inclusing Morpheus:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1060677

However, I don't see how working on a battery connected device and on Unity can be extrapolated to VR on a console. Also I don't get the part that he mentions he has only 1.5ms left for AI pathfinding, logic updates, and audio mixing. It sounds as if he is not doing those in parallel, if I assume that 1.5ms is not the amount of total execution time left on a fully exhausted pipeline running parallel threads during a VR frame time with small gaps of unusued CPU cycles.

 

[FarticusMaximus]

A developer on NeoGAF paints a bleak picture of what to expect from VR inclusing Morpheus:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1060677

However, I don't see how working on a battery connected device and on Unity can be extrapolated to VR on a console.

He goes into a fair bit of detail on what had to be cut and how exactly the same principles apply to any VR platform.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Considering people will be paying extra a few hundred dollars/euros they will be expecting a complete experience.
PCs dont necessarily have the same limitations as.

When you can spend £1000+ on a more powerful PC and headset, yes, the PC offers the better experience. *shrug*

The minimum requirements for Morpheus to work are solidly rendered titles. The screenshots may suck, but the experience will rock. Like Wii, only way, way moreso. I'd be surprised if more people prefer the 2D eye-candy experience to the immersive 3D one.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

He goes into a fair bit of detail on what had to be cut and how exactly the same principles apply to any VR platform.

I don't think this is representative. We've already heard from other devs about the differences in game design that are needed, and how a lot of 2D effects won't work in 3D. However, the hardware example of Gear VR and Unity is plain silly. PS4 is not going to be hampered to 40 drawcalls! The comments after that post are the more telling IMO.

 

[FarticusMaximus]

The minimum requirements for Morpheus to work are solidly rendered titles. The screenshots may suck, but the experience will rock.

Pixel whores are going to hate on it for sure. People need to accept the fact that visuals for VR games are going to get knocked back to the stone age and beyond, and without experiencing VR first-hand it will not, can not, be appreciated.

VR is going to be the hardest sell the videogames industry has ever faced. It's not really advertisable. Word of mouth has to carry the entire weight of VR PR.

 

[hesido]

Pixel whores are going to hate on it for sure. People need to accept the fact that visuals for VR games are going to get knocked back to the stone age and beyond, and without experiencing VR first-hand it will not, can not, be appreciated.

VR is going to be the hardest sell the videogames industry has ever faced. It's not really advertisable. Word of mouth has to carry the entire weight of VR PR.

While I agree about the hard sell and the requirement of word of mouth, I don't think the visuals will get knocked back to the stone age, unless if by stone age you mean PS3 / Xbox 360.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

While I agree about the hard sell and the requirement of word of mouth, I don't think the visuals will get knocked back to the stone age, unless if by stone age you mean PS3 / Xbox 360.

Worse.

 

[pjbliverpool]

A developer on NeoGAF paints a bleak picture of what to expect from VR inclusing Morpheus:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1060677

However, I don't see how working on a battery connected device and on Unity can be extrapolated to VR on a console. Also I don't get the part that he mentions he has only 1.5ms left for AI pathfinding, logic updates, and audio mixing. It sounds as if he is not doing those in parallel, if I assume that 1.5ms is not the amount of total execution time left on a fully exhausted pipeline running parallel threads during a VR frame time with small gaps of unusued CPU cycles.

That's an interesting view and potentially a good thing IMO if it helps to drive hardware progression forward. He does seem seem a little over pessimistic in my view though. You only have to look at the PC games people have hacked to run on OR which by all accounts are running fine aside from control issues (Alien Isolation, Skyrim etc..) to see what should be possible. Perhaps those games aren't running at the full 90fps preferred for presence but since they were running on hardware slower than what is available today, and much slower that what will be available next year then I don't see a problem with at least Alien Isolation level graphics from top level hardware at 90fps. PS4 will be more limited but has the "advantage" of rendering at only 60fps and a lower resolution so the overall graphics reduction wouldn't have to be huge.

 

[FarticusMaximus]

While I agree about the hard sell and the requirement of word of mouth, I don't think the visuals will get knocked back to the stone age, unless if by stone age you mean PS3 / Xbox 360.

I am referring to screenshot quality being knocked back, not overall visual quality.

It's important to remember that even though individual frame quality is likely to be below PS360 standards (well below if this developer is to be believed), the high frame rate and immersive quality of VR will make up for it, just in a way that isn't as tangible or relatable, i.e. you can't show it to someone else or even describe it. You have to experience it first-hand.

Judging image quality of a moving game based on screenshots I have always thought is frankly pretty retarded anyway. Our brains to do not process visual information on a time-slice basis, so screenshots are not representative of visuals in motion. Screenshots are for rendering technique analysis and e-peen polishing only.

 

[Nesh]

When you can spend £1000+ on a more powerful PC and headset, yes, the PC offers the better experience. *shrug*

The minimum requirements for Morpheus to work are solidly rendered titles. The screenshots may suck, but the experience will rock. Like Wii, only way, way moreso. I'd be surprised if more people prefer the 2D eye-candy experience to the immersive 3D one.

You dont need to spend £1000+ do get a PC that performs better than a PS4. That price is about to get even lower each year. There will be AAA VR core PC games that people would want to play on the PS4. If these arent ported because Morpheus implementation will require too much downgrade and Morpheus will be limited to certain games, people will have something to compare to. The Wii was am a massive success because it was dirt cheap, the majority of games supported the Wiimore, it wasnt an extra peripheral, there were no motion controls to compare to from competition and appealed to a casual market which wasnt that much into games before. Those that enjoyed it had no expectations. The rest didnt even bother with it. The Wii for the rest of the market was an ugly, gimped console with games that werent much immersive to begin with.
Morpheus is the opposite of Wii. It is supposed to be truly immersive, but it is an extra peripheral, it is expensive, we have expectations about it, it still targets the core market. Yes we can accept a level of visual sacrifice at the benefit of immersion. But you cant act as if there is no limit to how low they can set the visual bar. This is why I repeat "we will wait and see". If that gets too low, even less will opt for it.

 

[pjbliverpool]

You dont need to spend £1000+ do get a PC that performs better than a PS4.

I think Shifty was speaking of the cost of PC + Headset. Which if you take the "minimum spec" for Occulus Rift probably works out about right. Obviously the comparable cost on the PS4 side will be PS4+Morpheus whatever that ends up being. But it's safe to say it will be a lot less than £1000, albeit a lot less capable too.

 

[Nesh]

I think Shifty was speaking of the cost of PC + Headset. Which if you take the "minimum spec" for Occulus Rift probably works out about right. Obviously the comparable cost on the PS4 side will be PS4+Morpheus whatever that ends up being. But it's safe to say it will be a lot less than £1000, albeit a lot less capable too.

It doesnt matter. Human psychology doesnt work like that. People wont be thinking "I ll pay less for PS4 hence I am expecting a lesser experience, fewer VR games and games that arent as interesting as those on PC"

 

[hesido]

Judging image quality of a moving game based on screenshots I have always thought is frankly pretty retarded anyway. Our brains to do not process visual information on a time-slice basis, so screenshots are not representative of visuals in motion. Screenshots are for rendering technique analysis and e-peen polishing only.

We need more embedded WebMs playing out slices of gameplay, the newspapers in Harry Potter already seems to have solved this problem.

 

[London Geezer]

It doesnt matter. Human psychology doesnt work like that. People wont be thinking "I ll pay less for PS4 hence I am expecting a lesser experience, fewer VR games and games that arent as interesting as those on PC"

Sony marketing will ensure that people's perception will be very different. They should work towards making Morpheus look like the most advanced and accessible VR solution out there. Just like they convinced a lot of people that PS2 was more powerful than the original Xbox and so on.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You dont need to spend £1000+ do get a PC that performs better than a PS4.

If you want a PC + headset that'll perform significantly better than PS4 and produce the notably better results, you'll have to spend significant money. Oculus minimum recommended specs are £500 to get core components. The excludes case, RAM, HDD, etc. OVR reckon a VR ready PC will cost $1500.

When bought along with a VR-ready computer, the Oculus Rift virtual reality headset may set consumers back a grand total of roughly $1,500 US, Oculus CEO Brendan Iribe said on Wednesday during Code Conference in Rancho Palos Verdes, Calif.

“We are looking at an all-in price, if you have to go out and actually need to buy a new computer and you’re going to buy the Rift … at most you should be in that $1,500 range,” Iribe said, according Re/code, adding he’d like the total price to eventually duck under the $1,000 US mark.

It doesnt matter. Human psychology doesnt work like that. People wont be thinking "I ll pay less for PS4 hence I am expecting a lesser experience, fewer VR games and games that arent as interesting as those on PC"

Huh? I've never met anyone who expects the same performance or experience from a cheaper product. No-one expects a £500 TV to perform as well as a £1500 TV, or a cheap car, or cheap digital camera, to perform as well as their expensive ones. No-one buys a £100 Android handset thinking it's the rival of a £500 one. Those who buy VR on PS4 will be buying the experience as it is as whatever price it is. Those who go researching different options and different prices, who'll probably be the minority of PS4 owners, will perform the usual cost/benefit comparison in making their choice. "Well, PCs better and produces prettier games, but it'll cost a lot more. PS4 is good enough at what I can currently afford," or, "I really want VR with all the bells and whistles and am willing to pay more for that."

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Worse.

Oh, for cryin' out loud. Things aren't going to get that bad.

Spoiler

Spoiler

And superior PC version

 

[London Geezer]

With decent IQ, I would absolutely love a crazy game like Rez, which was mostly wireframe (remember??), on Morpheus. Who needs drugs when you have that??

We need more imaginative graphics like that, even when they don't push a gazillion tessellated displaced mapped anti-this anti-that pixels.

Morpheus and all other VR solutions will be able to give great experiences just throwing around gouraud shaded polys!

 

[Nesh]

If you want a PC + headset that'll perform significantly better than PS4 and produce the notably better results, you'll have to spend significant money. Oculus minimum recommended specs are £500 to get core components. The excludes case, RAM, HDD, etc. OVR reckon a VR ready PC will cost $1500.

As I mentioned prices will be falling on the PC side of things. Prices fall and hardware components improve. Prices on consoles fall slower without any options to increase performance

Huh? I've never met anyone who expects the same performance or experience from a cheaper product. No-one expects a £500 TV to perform as well as a £1500 TV, or a cheap car, or cheap digital camera, to perform as well as their expensive ones. No-one buys a £100 Android handset thinking it's the rival of a £500 one. Those who buy VR on PS4 will be buying the experience as it is as whatever price it is. Those who go researching different options and different prices, who'll probably be the minority of PS4 owners, will perform the usual cost/benefit comparison in making their choice. "Well, PCs better and produces prettier games, but it'll cost a lot more. PS4 is good enough at what I can currently afford," or, "I really want VR with all the bells and whistles and am willing to pay more for that."

No. We arent talking about the same thing.
Probably because you didnt understand my initial point.
Because the PS4 is cheaper it doesnt mean people are willing to use that as an excuse for whatever quality they will get. Dont forget that console gamers already pay more for console games knowing that PC games can run better. The expectations about PS4's VR are high despite of price. People know that they wont be getting 4K and graphics set on ULTRA settings from its games, but that doesnt mean they will be accepting just any quality if games are streamlined or limited due to technical limitations for that matter. The PS4 VR experience should also meet those expectations which by any means arent low. The console gamer is still looking for the perfect console experience. Not just a gimmick addition

For example I know that my PS4 cant run Withcer 3 at ultra settings and 60fps. My expectations are set to 30fps, very good graphics with the gameplay completely intact. Anything below that would have been a disappointment.
Similarly I know that my PS4 wont be able to run VR games just like the best PC out there, but if the technical limitations offer an experience that is significantly lesser or below a certain point, the lower total price will not make me enjoy it more or even feel better about my purchase. Morpheus is expected to be an expensive piece of hardware and near the price someone will be paying for a PC VR. Expectations and price dont always have completely linear relationships. This is why people expect to see AAA games to be convinced to buy Morpheus.
We know that PS4 wont be capable to offer the same VR experience as the best PC. But what we dont know is how much lesser it will be.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Probably because you didnt understand my initial point.

I still don't .

Because the PS4 is cheaper it doesnt mean people are willing to use that as an excuse for whatever quality they will get...

Morpheus is going to provide a VR game experience. People's willingness to buy into that will be dependent on that experience. When they see the same game on PC runs in better quality, they'll shrug; that's the norm.

Similarly I know that my PS4 wont be able to run VR games just like the best PC out there, but if the technical limitations offer an experience that is significantly lesser or below a certain point, the lower total price will not make me enjoy it more or even feel better about my purchase.

If the game experience is brilliant, what does it matter how the rivals compare? People didn't enjoy Wii less because it wasn't as pretty as PS360. The waggle experience was worth the investment. When you stick a Morpheus on and get transported into another world, even though that experience isn't as good as a decent PC running the same game, the experience has a value that you can assign a personal dollar figure to. For you, the lower quality Morpheus experience (which is only comparing AAA immersive games, as if highly specialised VR experiences including first party titles aren't worth mentioning) may not justify the few hundred dollars difference in adoption price, but for many it'll be worth it. Certainly regards mass adoption, Morpheus won't be ignored because it's not as good as a decent PC rig.

Morpheus is expected to be an expensive piece of hardware and near the price someone will be paying for a PC VR.

That's just not true. PS4 will get to £200 and £150. The minimum price of a PC always remains higher, but you get more performance for that. PS4+VR will be a good £200-300 cheaper than PC, and for a signfiicantly better PC experience as your describing that puts shade to the PS4 experience, you'll have to spend more. The end result is exactly the same a user choosing a cheaper, less expensive console or PC over another more capable, more expensive option.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

As I mentioned prices will be falling on the PC side of things. Prices fall and hardware components improve. Prices on consoles fall slower without any options to increase performance

And as is traditional with the PC platform, games each year games become more and more demanding or visuals become more and more compromised - VR will only compound this. Your £1,500 VR PC this year may well be a £1,000 PC next year but next year's games will be pushing this year's specs hard and harder the next year.